• RFD: Remove misc.legal.moderated

    From Good Guy@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Tue Aug 15 21:19:45 2017
    On 16/08/2017 01:01, Bernie Cosell wrote:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    I would say that perhaps the group should become unmoderated so that
    anybody can participate and post and discuss anything related to legal
    and political matters. The groups are killed because of moderations and
    in 2017 there is no place for moderation when old people are dying and
    young people are not aware of how to use newsgroups.

    We were running a group on: <news.gowestweb.com> but it is being
    discontinued soon so we decided to open a new one under a different
    management. The group is now at:

    <news.lexi.net>

    Feel free to join it to discuss Wordpress and all things web-design and contracts.



    --
    With over 500 million devices now running Windows 10, customer
    satisfaction is higher than any previous version of windows.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kathy Morgan@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Tue Aug 15 21:29:39 2017
    Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarmcom.dca1.giganews.com> wrote:

    This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove the
    {moderated or unmoderated} newsgroup {insert newsgroup name(s)}.

    The line above should have read:

    moderated newsgroup misc.legal.moderated

    Since the Subject line and Distribution lines make it obvious that is
    what was intended, I did not as moderator of news.announce.newgroups see
    that as a reason to reject the post. The intent is perfectly clear.

    Distribution:
    news.announce.newgroups
    news.groups.proposals
    misc.legal.moderated

    Proponent: Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarm.com>
    (snip)
    Rationale for removal:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    History of the Group:

    Group was created in 1994. It was created to provide a moderated
    alternative to misc.legal. In the past it has run with as many as
    20+ posts a day. Now there's hardly a post at all any more.

    Since it is the moderator requesting removal of the group due to lack of posters, and since there is already an unmoderated group for the
    subject, I believe the group should be removed.

    Kathy, member of B8MB but speaking only for myself

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  • From Tim Skirvin@21:1/5 to Kathy Morgan on Tue Aug 15 22:28:23 2017
    kmorgan@spamcop.net (Kathy Morgan) writes:

    Since it is the moderator requesting removal of the group due to lack of posters, and since there is already an unmoderated group for the
    subject, I believe the group should be removed.

    Agreed.

    - Tim Skirvin (tskirvin@killfile.org)
    --
    http://www.facebook.com/tskirvin Skirv's Social Networking

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  • From CRNG@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 16 13:59:38 2017
    On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 21:19:45 CST, Good Guy <hello.world@example.com>
    wrote in <on03dv$vit$1@news.mixmin.net>

    On 16/08/2017 01:01, Bernie Cosell wrote:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    I would say that perhaps the group should become unmoderated so that
    anybody can participate and post and discuss anything related to legal
    and political matters. The groups are killed because of moderations and
    in 2017 there is no place for moderation when old people are dying and
    young people are not aware of how to use newsgroups.

    +1
    --
    Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
    and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
    Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
    newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Kathy Morgan@21:1/5 to Good Guy on Wed Aug 16 16:07:59 2017
    Good Guy <hello.world@example.com> wrote:

    On 16/08/2017 01:01, Bernie Cosell wrote:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    I would say that perhaps the group should become unmoderated so that
    anybody can participate and post and discuss anything related to legal
    and political matters.

    There are two reasons why this would be a bad idea. One is technical:
    some servers would change the status to unmoderated and others would
    not, fracturing any possible discussion. Not to mention how ugly the
    name would be as an unmoderated group called misc.legal.moderated.

    The other is that there is already an unmoderated companion group
    misc.legal.

    --
    Kathy, speaking only for myself

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  • From CRNG@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 16 19:59:09 2017
    On Wed, 16 Aug 2017 16:07:59 CST, kmorgan@spamcop.net (Kathy Morgan)
    wrote in <1nauhyh.fchstu1cpvuyoN%kmorgan@spamcop.net>

    r a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    I would say that perhaps the group should become unmoderated so that
    anybody can participate and post and discuss anything related to legal
    and political matters.

    There are two reasons why this would be a bad idea. One is technical:
    some servers would change the status to unmoderated and others would
    not,

    Isn't USENET wonderful!
    --
    Web based forums are like subscribing to 10 different newspapers
    and having to visit 10 different news stands to pickup each one.
    Email list-server groups and USENET are like having all of those
    newspapers delivered to your door every morning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Shawn K. Quinn@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Fri Aug 18 02:33:50 2017
    On 08/15/2017 07:01 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
    Rationale for removal:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    History of the Group:

    Group was created in 1994. It was created to provide a moderated
    alternative to misc.legal. In the past it has run with as many as
    20+ posts a day. Now there's hardly a post at all any more.

    One of the first things I saw when opening up misc.legal was a thread
    "Is it legal to #$%& in public" and there's no telling what other kind
    of garbage is waiting in the archives. Obviously, this kind of post
    would never be allowed in a properly moderated group, and at the point
    in Usenet's lifecycle when the group was made, serious legal posts were
    easily drowned out by such crap.

    Maybe the demand for a moderated newsgroup about the named topic is not
    what it used to be. Maybe the people who would post to
    misc.legal.moderated if they knew it exists don't know that it does.
    However, I can understand if continuing to maintain moderation of the
    group in light of the low post volume is seen as more trouble than it's
    worth. At this stage of Usenet's lifecycle, it's unlikely to see higher
    post counts than it is now, along with many other groups that once
    enjoyed higher traffic.

    --
    Shawn K. Quinn <skquinn@rushpost.com>
    http://www.rantroulette.com
    http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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  • From r.engehausen@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Aug 19 14:54:03 2017
    I sent a few responses via my normal USENET provider but they didn't seem to arrive.

    Here is one:


    Unfortunately the unmoderated misc.legal has a very low signal to noise ratio. Few people post there because of that.

    While the m.l.m moderator has done a good job controlling the content of the misc.legal.moderated group, the moderation delay has been a bit excessive in the past and that has driven off people.

    I would suggest a change in moderators in an attempt to keep the group going

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  • From McGyver@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 23 14:35:30 2017
    Bernie Cosell formulated the question :
    This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove the
    {moderated or unmoderated} newsgroup {insert newsgroup name(s)}.

    Distribution:
    news.announce.newgroups
    news.groups.proposals
    misc.legal.moderated

    Proponent: Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarm.com>

    Charter:

    See <https://www.dropbox.com/s/74g5zyaa9qc5i29/charter.txt?dl=0>

    Rationale for removal:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    History of the Group:

    Group was created in 1994. It was created to provide a moderated
    alternative to misc.legal. In the past it has run with as many as
    20+ posts a day. Now there's hardly a post at all any more.

    Procedure:

    Those who wish to comment on this request to remove this newsgroup should subscribe to news:news.groups.proposals and participate in the relevant threads in
    that newsgroup.

    To this end, the followup header of this RFD has been set to news.groups.proposals.

    All discussion of active proposals should be posted to
    news.groups.proposals.

    If desired by the readership of closely affected groups, the discussion may be
    crossposted to those groups, but care must be taken to ensure that all discussion appears in news.groups.proposals as well.

    For more information on the newsgroup removal process, please see http://www.big-8.org/wiki/Removing_newsgroups

    History of this RFD:

    Original request: 2017-08-15

    Bernie Cosell
    moderator: misc.legal.moderated

    I am against removal of misc.legal.moderated. The decline in posting
    has two causes. One is a poor job of moderation. Not to single out
    Mr. Cosell - the problem goes back far earlier than his tenure. I quit particpating because of the delay between my contributions and posting
    by the moderator and because of the moderator's rejection of posts for
    trivial reasons, such as my failure to snip out enough of the original
    poster's content. delays and rejections made me feel like I was
    wasting my time. My knowledge concerning delays and rejections apply
    only to my reply posts. It may be that the original posters have given
    up for similar reasons, but I can't say. If the moderator would act
    promptly and limit rejections to posts by trolls and off-topic posts, a participation increase might be possible.

    The second reason for declining partipation is that all of usenet is inconvenient and in decline. I don't have a solution to suggest, but
    deletion of newsgroups because of non-participation should start with
    those that have zero participation and no prospect for recovery.

    If Mr. Cosell's reason for recommending deletion is that he is wasting
    his time moderating an inactive newsgroup, resignation would be a
    better alternative. (and, no, I am not volunterring. I am not up to
    the task.)

    Misc.legal and misc.legal.moderated made a valuable contrbution to the
    public at one time and I was proud to participate. Misc.legal is
    hoplessly lost, but misc.legal.moderated might be salvagable. I vote
    against deletion.

    McGyver

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  • From micky@21:1/5 to mlmmod@fantasyfarmcom.dca1.giganews on Mon Aug 28 01:51:26 2017
    I think removal is a very bad idea. Let it sit and maybe others will
    show up who want to run it again.



    In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 15 Aug 2017 20:01:04 EDT, Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarmcom.dca1.giganews.com> wrote:

    This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove the
    {moderated or unmoderated} newsgroup {insert newsgroup name(s)}.

    Distribution:
    news.announce.newgroups
    news.groups.proposals
    misc.legal.moderated

    Proponent: Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarm.com>

    Charter:

    See <https://www.dropbox.com/s/74g5zyaa9qc5i29/charter.txt?dl=0>

    Rationale for removal:

    After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    every month or two, if that

    History of the Group:

    Group was created in 1994. It was created to provide a moderated
    alternative to misc.legal. In the past it has run with as many as
    20+ posts a day. Now there's hardly a post at all any more.

    Procedure:

    Those who wish to comment on this request to remove this newsgroup should >subscribe to news:news.groups.proposals and participate in the relevant >threads in
    that newsgroup.

    To this end, the followup header of this RFD has been set to >news.groups.proposals.

    All discussion of active proposals should be posted to
    news.groups.proposals.

    If desired by the readership of closely affected groups, the discussion may >be
    crossposted to those groups, but care must be taken to ensure that all >discussion appears in news.groups.proposals as well.

    For more information on the newsgroup removal process, please see >http://www.big-8.org/wiki/Removing_newsgroups

    History of this RFD:

    Original request: 2017-08-15

    Bernie Cosell
    moderator: misc.legal.moderated


    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

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  • From micky@21:1/5 to All on Mon Aug 28 15:09:04 2017
    Not only that, if the group needs a moderator, I'll do it.



    I was a member of a club for which after having the same set of officers
    for 4 or 5 years, at one point they all resigned except the president**.

    And they told the prez that they thought the club should be disbanded.
    Because they saw it through their own pov, that they were leaving, they
    had lost interest.

    However he had just found a new activities chairman and the two of them
    ran the club for another 4 years. After that another group took over
    and the club is still vigorous 20 years later.

    I know the situation is not the same, but what does it cost anyone to
    have a newsgroup with no traffic, and if there is traffic it's because
    people are using it. Two thirds of the newsgroups have never had any
    traffic and they haven't dragged down Usenet.

    What needs to happen is for someone to advertise Usenet. It's the best
    format on the internet, but because it has no advertising and no one is
    making money, except a small extent the vendors of news readers and news servers, no one is advertising it.

    I once prepared a list of literally 20 reasons why it was better than
    the web, and 10 or 15 why it was better than mailing lists. Instead of
    giving in, let the group sit until it become popular again.



    **Which was I. Actually the first president resigned. I was VP because
    it was the least work, but I became pres. and with the other 4 people
    ran the club for 4 years. Then with only one other person ran it for 4
    more years. We had about 45 events a year, every year.


    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

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  • From Kathy Morgan@21:1/5 to micky on Wed Aug 30 15:26:07 2017
    micky <misc07@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    I know the situation is not the same, but what does it cost anyone to
    have a newsgroup with no traffic, and if there is traffic it's because
    people are using it. Two thirds of the newsgroups have never had any traffic and they haven't dragged down Usenet.

    Actually, I disagree with you. The many newsgroups with no useful
    traffic do discourage people from Usenet, so they do drag Usenet down.

    --
    Kathy

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  • From Kathy Morgan@21:1/5 to r.engehausen@gmail.com on Wed Aug 30 15:28:15 2017
    [quoted text rewrapped due to long lines]

    <r.engehausen@gmail.com> wrote:

    Unfortunately the unmoderated misc.legal has a very low signal to noise ratio. Few people post there because of that.

    I've just taken a look in misc.legal. It has very low traffic, less
    than 3 posts per day over a 30-day period. It is quiet enough that any half-way decent news reader (ie, one that has some minimal level of
    kill-filing ability) would probably reduce the traffic to less than 2
    posts per day.

    If you are seeing significantly more traffic in misc.legal than I did,
    with a very low signal to noise ratio, it may be because you are not
    using a decent quality server. It appears that you may be using Google
    Groups, which is a notoriously dreadful interface. Using a real news
    reader with a well-run news server would probably really improve the experience. I recommend either Individual.net (10 Euros per year) or Albasani.net (free) and others here can offer several others that are
    good.

    While the m.l.m moderator has done a good job controlling the content of
    the misc.legal.moderated group, the moderation delay has been a bit
    excessive in the past and that has driven off people.

    I would suggest a change in moderators in an attempt to keep the group going

    Traffic in misc.legal is low, and the moderator has said that he's
    receiving very few submissions to misc.legal.moderated. I have not seen
    anyone here say that they want to post to misc.legal.moderated, so I
    don't believe changing moderators would make any difference.

    I have personal experience attempting to revive 6 different dead
    moderated groups and none of them have been successful. The first was news.groups.reviews, back when Usenet was much more active generally.
    Myself and two other volunteers made a really heroic effort to try to
    revive the group. Many users enjoyed reading the reviews, but no one
    wanted to post reviews. For some of the other groups, the users have
    moved to Web forums or Web search engines have rendered them moot.

    --
    Kathy

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  • From Roy Tremblay@21:1/5 to actually on Thu Aug 31 16:14:31 2017
    Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarmcom.dca1.giganews.com> actually wrote:

    This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove the
    {moderated or unmoderated} newsgroup {insert newsgroup name(s)}.

    I will subscribe to news.groups.proposals where this is my first comment
    ever on an RFD.

    Over the decades, I have *tried* to use misc.legal.moderated and failed
    more than half of the time to get a thread to be accepted by the
    moderators.

    Even the threads that did take took eons of time to post, so I gave up as
    the group was, I had assumed, merely badly moderated.

    NOTE: Not one was spam. All were topical legal questions. I have been on
    Usenet for decades (yes, there's a plural there) under various accounts.

    Basically, IMHO, the group negated itself.

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  • From r.engehausen@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Kathy Morgan on Fri Sep 1 01:00:49 2017
    On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 12:31:18 PM UTC-7, Kathy Morgan wrote:
    [quoted text rewrapped due to long lines]

    <r.engehausen@gmail.com> wrote:

    Unfortunately the unmoderated misc.legal has a very low signal to noise ratio. Few people post there because of that.

    I've just taken a look in misc.legal. It has very low traffic, less
    than 3 posts per day over a 30-day period. It is quiet enough that any half-way decent news reader (ie, one that has some minimal level of kill-filing ability) would probably reduce the traffi

    Traffic in misc.legal is low, and the moderator has said that he's
    receiving very few submissions to misc.legal.moderated. I have not seen anyone here say that they want to post to misc.legal.moderated, so I
    don't believe changing moderators would make any difference.

    I have personal experience attempting to revive 6 different dead
    moderated groups and none of them have been successful. The first was news.groups.reviews, back when Usenet was much more active generally.
    Myself and two other volunteers made a really heroic effort to try to
    revive the group. Many users enjoyed reading the reviews, but no one
    wanted to post reviews. For some of the other groups, the users have
    moved to Web forums or Web search engines have rendered them moot.

    --
    Kathy


    I only have to post to this group via Google groups. The other server I use seems to not work here. But all my other groups work.

    While misc.legal seems to have some traffic most of it is just crosspostings with of news items with little or no original content. My guess is there is one discussion topic per week or so.

    At least two people have volunteered to become moderators so there is some interest

    And I too have been on USENET since the late 1980s including running a service where USENET was gatewayed into some extensive private company networks.

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  • From Bernie Cosell@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 4 18:59:34 2017
    Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarmcom.dca1.giganews.com> wrote:

    } This is a formal Request for Discussion (RFD) to remove the
    } moderated newsgroup misc.legal.moderated.
    }
    } Distribution:
    } news.announce.newgroups
    } news.groups.proposals
    } misc.legal.moderated
    }
    } Proponent: Bernie Cosell <mlmmod@fantasyfarm.com>
    }
    } Charter:
    }
    } See <https://www.dropbox.com/s/74g5zyaa9qc5i29/charter.txt?dl=0>
    }
    } Rationale for removal:
    }
    } After a 20+ year run, the traffic in m.l.m has dropped to a post
    } every month or two, if that

    I'm not sure what happens next. If someone would like to 'officially' volunteer to take over moderation [as I did when the previous moderator
    wanted to retire], I am all for it! I'd be happy to have the newsgroup continue. But failing someone _really_ stepping forward, I think that
    it is time to remove the group.

    I agree that moderating an zero-postings newsgroup isn't much work (slight
    joke intended) but I'm often away from the location where I can handle moderation and so there are occasional five-six day delays in getting posts attended to.

    I don't know who actually makes the final decision, nor when, but I'd
    suggest that if a new moderator doesn't take the reins in, say, two weeks
    [14 Sept] then whoever does such things should remove the group.

    Thanks... /Bernie\
    Bernie Cosell
    moderator: misc.legal.moderated

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  • From Kathy Morgan@21:1/5 to micky on Sat Sep 9 17:20:53 2017
    micky <misc07@bigfoot.com> wrote:

    Not only that, if the group needs a moderator, I'll do it.

    Have you any experience as a Usenet moderator? Have you selected and
    set up a moderation platform? Ie., are you technically _able_ to
    moderate the group?

    --
    Kathy

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  • From Kathy Morgan@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Sat Sep 9 17:20:54 2017
    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

    If someone would like to 'officially'
    volunteer to take over moderation [as I did when the previous moderator wanted to retire], I am all for it! I'd be happy to have the newsgroup continue. But failing someone _really_ stepping forward, I think that
    it is time to remove the group.

    So far I'm not seeing anyone seriously stepping forward.

    I don't know who actually makes the final decision, nor when, but I'd
    suggest that if a new moderator doesn't take the reins in, say, two weeks
    [14 Sept] then whoever does such things should remove the group.

    The final decision will be made by the Big 8 Management Board (B8MB),
    and I agree with you that 14 Sept is a reasonable deadline for some kind
    of action. At that point, the B8MB can post a Last Call for Comments
    and initiate voting on the proposal with the result announced after the
    vote and at least a 5 day comment period.

    --
    Kathy, Chairman B8MB

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  • From r.engehausen@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Kathy Morgan on Sun Sep 10 16:09:17 2017
    I don't know how to "seriously" step forward but I will volunteer. To answer the "technical" question, I have run a USENET server in the past and currently work part time for an ISP so I have access to the resources.

    Roy

    On Saturday, September 9, 2017 at 2:21:12 PM UTC-7, Kathy Morgan wrote:
    Bernie Cosell wrote:

    If someone would like to 'officially'
    volunteer to take over moderation [as I did when the previous moderator wanted to retire], I am all for it! I'd be happy to have the newsgroup continue. But failing someone _really_ stepping forward, I think that
    it is time to remove the group.

    So far I'm not seeing anyone seriously stepping forward.

    I don't know who actually makes the final decision, nor when, but I'd suggest that if a new moderator doesn't take the reins in, say, two weeks [14 Sept] then whoever does such things should remove the group.

    The final decision will be made by the Big 8 Management Board (B8MB),
    and I agree with you that 14 Sept is a reasonable deadline for some kind
    of action. At that point, the B8MB can post a Last Call for Comments
    and initiate voting on the proposal with the result announced after the
    vote and at least a 5 day comment period.

    --
    Kathy, Chairman B8MB

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  • From Bernie Cosell@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 16 14:19:35 2017
    r.engehausen@gmail.com wrote:

    } I don't know how to "seriously" step forward but I will volunteer. To answer the "technical" question, I have run a USENET server in the past and currently work part time for an ISP so I have access to the resources.

    Well, I'm amenable to just changing the moderation email address to Roy's
    and seeing what happens. Is there an objection letting Roy moderate m.l.m?



    Bernie Cosell
    moderator: misc.legal.moderated

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  • From McGyver@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 25 16:44:56 2017
    Bernie Cosell was thinking very hard :
    r.engehausen@gmail.com wrote:

    } I don't know how to "seriously" step forward but I will volunteer. To answer the "technical" question, I have run a USENET server in the past and currently work part time for an ISP so I have access to the resources.

    Well, I'm amenable to just changing the moderation email address to Roy's
    and seeing what happens. Is there an objection letting Roy moderate m.l.m?



    Bernie Cosell
    moderator: misc.legal.moderated

    No objection.

    McGyver

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