Biden administration lawyer may have saved student loan forgiveness
plan at Supreme Court

The government's top Supreme Court lawyer may have saved President Joe
Biden's $400 billion student loan forgiveness plan from what experts
considered all-but-certain defeat.

Experts lobbed praise on Solicitor General Elizabeth Prelogar, the
lawyer who represented the Biden administration in front of the nine
justices on Tuesday.

"The Biden administration now seems more likely than not to win the
cases," said higher education expert Mark Kantrowitz.

"Her preparation, poise and power were impressive," Kantrowitz said.

In contrast, the attorneys for plaintiffs opposed to the program were
less than stellar, Kantrowitz said. "It was like the difference
between a star quarterback and two tiddlywinks players," he quipped.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/01/supreme-court-biden-loan-forgiveness-plan-chances.html

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On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 15:14:58 -0600
JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:

Biden administration lawyer may have saved student loan forgiveness
plan at Supreme Court

The government's top Supreme Court lawyer may have saved President Joe Biden's $400 billion student loan forgiveness plan from what experts considered all-but-certain defeat.

I oppose it. I had to pay my debts, these kids should pay theirs. Not
my fault they wasted their money. If these kids get their debt
forgiven, I've got a couple of loans I'd like to see eradicated too
because waa fucking waa.

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On 3/1/2023 22:16, Retrograde wrote:

On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 15:14:58 -0600
JAB<here@is.invalid> wrote:

Biden administration lawyer may have saved student loan forgiveness
plan at Supreme Court

The government's top Supreme Court lawyer may have saved President Joe
Biden's $400 billion student loan forgiveness plan from what experts
considered all-but-certain defeat.

I oppose it. I had to pay my debts, these kids should pay theirs. Not
my fault they wasted their money. If these kids get their debt
forgiven, I've got a couple of loans I'd like to see eradicated too
because waa fucking waa.

+1

(For reference, I'd like to remind that I'm 27... although I hopped
right into the job market, instead of blowing money on college. Lots of
trade schools out there if I want to make more money.)

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On 3/1/2023 22:16, Retrograde wrote:

On Wed, 01 Mar 2023 15:14:58 -0600
JAB<here@is.invalid> wrote:

Biden administration lawyer may have saved student loan forgiveness
plan at Supreme Court

The government's top Supreme Court lawyer may have saved President Joe
Biden's $400 billion student loan forgiveness plan from what experts
considered all-but-certain defeat.

I oppose it. I had to pay my debts, these kids should pay theirs. Not
my fault they wasted their money. If these kids get their debt
forgiven, I've got a couple of loans I'd like to see eradicated too
because waa fucking waa.

*ALTHOUGH*, to build on my last reply (I sent it too quickly), I'd like
to mention that the cost of education has risen dramatically; far beyond
the rate of inflation. Something needs to be done about that; there's
no excuse for how grossly expensive college is now.

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On Wed, 1 Mar 2023 22:16:44 -0500, Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com>
wrote:

I oppose it. I had to pay my debts,

So, what were the consequences of this "handout"?

"Signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on June 22, 1944,
this act, also known as the G.I. Bill, provided World War II veterans
with funds for college education, unemployment insurance, and housing.
It put higher education within the reach of millions of veterans of
WWII and later military conflicts."

https://www.archives.gov/milestone-documents/servicemens-readjustment-act

I believe it was overall a stimulus to US's economy....an increase in
housing construction, a better educated workforce, etc.

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Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> writes:

On 3/1/2023 22:16, Retrograde wrote:

I oppose it. I had to pay my debts, these kids should pay theirs. Not
my fault they wasted their money. If these kids get their debt
forgiven, I've got a couple of loans I'd like to see eradicated too
because waa fucking waa.

*ALTHOUGH*, to build on my last reply (I sent it too quickly), I'd like
to mention that the cost of education has risen dramatically; far beyond
the rate of inflation. Something needs to be done about that; there's
no excuse for how grossly expensive college is now.

Just so. I paid off my student loans within a year of graduation.
But that was in an era when (1) tuition and fees (in constant dollars) were
a fraction of what they are now and (2) it took me two weeks to find a
job a a prestigious institution although my degree was from a state
university, not Ivy League.

Student debt is a new form of wage slavery that helps guarantee that not-wealthy people who have managed to get an education are severely
curtailed in the options for independent action.

Education is dangerous....Every educated person is a future enemy.

-- Martin Bormann (1900-1945)

We are in danger of producing an educated proletariat.
That's dynamite! We have to be selective about who we
allow to through higher education.

-- Roger Freeman (Aide to Ca. Gov. Ronald Reagan)

If we suddenly discover that we have a educated proletariat, we gots
to have a way to neuter them. Unmanageable debt is just the ticket.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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On 02 Mar 2023 16:35:09 -0400, Mike Spencer
<mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

If we suddenly discover that we have a educated proletariat, we gots
to have a way to neuter them. Unmanageable debt is just the ticket.

That's been the Republican plan since Reagan's days....

Keep them behind the Eight Ball!

The problem here is these simpletons did not consider the economic consequences. These people are repaying this debt, and not
stimulating the economy by buying this/that/etc.

So, there are fewer purchases of "this/that/etc," which reduces tax
revenues, employment, etc.

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On 02 Mar 2023 16:35:09 -0400
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> writes:

On 3/1/2023 22:16, Retrograde wrote:

I oppose it. I had to pay my debts, these kids should pay theirs. Not
my fault they wasted their money. If these kids get their debt
forgiven, I've got a couple of loans I'd like to see eradicated too
because waa fucking waa.

*ALTHOUGH*, to build on my last reply (I sent it too quickly), I'd like
to mention that the cost of education has risen dramatically; far beyond the rate of inflation. Something needs to be done about that; there's
no excuse for how grossly expensive college is now.

Just so. I paid off my student loans within a year of graduation.
But that was in an era when (1) tuition and fees (in constant dollars) were
a fraction of what they are now and (2) it took me two weeks to find a
job a a prestigious institution although my degree was from a state university, not Ivy League.

Good points both. Yes, the university cost bubble has soared out of
control. Part of the problem though is that there was plenty of 'cheap'
money to support it. I don't see a diabolical plot to propogate wave
slavery; I see corporate greed underpinned by students who value
education and have easy access to borrowed money to support it. If the
govt agrees to take the financial hit, the universities escape and can
continue (even more easily now!) to charge outrageous prices. It's
more anger-inducing if you see what they spend the money on - it's
certainly not better educators and education, it's amenities, comfort, recreation, and an exploding administrative class untethered financial
reality.

The right solution in my opinion is to get students thinking about the
actual value of what they're buying - we're seeing this already.
Expensive, name brand education when 4 years at a state school gives
equivalent benefits for 10% of the cost? Suddenly you'll see
university admin try to be cost conscious again.

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On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 19:01:29 -0500, Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com>
wrote:

I don't see a diabolical plot to propogate wave
slavery

State funding to state-based universities has decreased

wave slavery

When a responsible person has bills to pay, they are more prone to
keeping their nose to one grindstone (company) until those bills are
paid.

So, a person becomes a "slave" to a company
=============

Slave II

California judge rules Google's confidentiality agreements break labor
law

A Google employee identified as John Doe argued that the broad
nondisclosure agreement the company asked him to sign barred him from
speaking about his job to other potential employers, amounting to a
noncompete clause, which are illegal in California. In a Thursday
ruling in California Superior Court, a judge agreed with the employee,
while declining to make a judgment on other allegations that Google's agreements blocked whistleblowing and sharing information about wages
with other workers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/01/14/google-nda-illegal-california/

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JAB <here@is.invalid> writes:

On Thu, 2 Mar 2023 19:01:29 -0500, Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com>
wrote:

I don't see a diabolical plot to propogate wave
slavery

State funding to state-based universities has decreased

Yeah, when I was in school (admittedly long ago), it was pretty easy
to earn the next year's tuition (at a state university, not at MIT)
with a summer job. If you were willing to get down and dirty with
exhausting work such as picking shade-grown tobacco, even more than
from some job in retail or construction.

wave slavery

When a responsible person has bills to pay, they are more prone to
keeping their nose to one grindstone (company) until those bills are
paid.

So, a person becomes a "slave" to a company
=============

Slave II

California judge rules Google's confidentiality agreements break labor
law

A Google employee identified as John Doe argued that the broad
nondisclosure agreement the company asked him to sign barred him from speaking about his job to other potential employers, amounting to a noncompete clause, which are illegal in California. In a Thursday
ruling in California Superior Court, a judge agreed with the employee,
while declining to make a judgment on other allegations that Google's agreements blocked whistleblowing and sharing information about wages
with other workers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2022/01/14/google-nda-illegal-california/

Cool.


--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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On 2023-03-03, Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

Yeah, when I was in school (admittedly long ago), it was pretty easy
to earn the next year's tuition (at a state university, not at MIT)
with a summer job. If you were willing to get down and dirty with
exhausting work such as picking shade-grown tobacco, even more than
from some job in retail or construction.

Even when I graduated college was expensive but not off-the-charts.

wave slavery

Oops, funny typo, sorry.

A Google employee identified as John Doe argued that the broad
nondisclosure agreement the company asked him to sign barred him from
speaking about his job to other potential employers, amounting to a
noncompete clause, which are illegal in California. In a Thursday

Cool.

I totally agree. Screw these rapacious companies. Hey Google, go fuck yerself.

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On 2023-03-02, JAB <here@is.invalid> wrote:

So, what were the consequences of this "handout"?

"Signed into law by President Franklin D. Roosevelt on June 22, 1944,
this act, also known as the G.I. Bill, provided World War II veterans

I'm not against student loans. I'm in favor of:
* students investing in studies that generate a worthwhile return
* college prices coming down as universities compete for new 'customers'
* colleges becoming more efficient and cost-effective

There's a good article from a year or two back that showed some
expensive degrees earn you less than minimum wage upon graduation, and
you graduate with crippling debt. I want students to make better
choices. Here.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/11/01/college-degree-value-major/

This also looks relevant:

https://hechingerreport.org/data-about-cost-debt-and-earnings-make-it-possible-to-calculate-the-return-on-education/

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On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 20:20:53 +0000, Retrograde
<fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:

I'm not against student loans. I'm in favor of:

* students investing in studies that generate a worthwhile return

I believe most/all developed nations have incentives to be a doctor,
engineer, etc. IIRC, more perks to be an engineer in Russia than
being a medical doctor.

Some parents enlighten their children about economic reality, and
others don't.

* college prices coming down as universities compete for new 'customers'

States have reduced funding over the years...there are some lower cost
colleges around, if a person is a local native.

* colleges becoming more efficient and cost-effective

Online courses can achieve this goal....

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On Fri, 3 Mar 2023 20:20:53 +0000
Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/11/01/college-degree-value-major/
This also looks relevant: https://hechingerreport.org/data-about-cost-debt-and-earnings-make-it-possible-to-calculate-the-return-on-education/

Not just relevant, a word-for-word reprint, the exact same article.
Wonder how that happened - some licening arrangement?

--
Retrograde <fungus@amongus.com.invalid>

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On Sun, 5 Mar 2023 16:47:43 -0500, Retrograde
<fungus@amongus.com.invalid> wrote:

This also looks relevant:
https://hechingerreport.org/data-about-cost-debt-and-earnings-make-it-possible-to-calculate-the-return-on-education/

Not just relevant, a word-for-word reprint, the exact same article.
Wonder how that happened - some licening arrangement?

What we have here is a finger blaming matter....it's all your fault.

Blame the parents for not setting the child straight...blame the
"loan" company for not establishing the child was on the right path economically...blame the institution for teaching topics that are dead
ends economically.
=============

Efforts began at the outset of the Obama administration to have the
federal government calculate whether students found the gainful
employment they needed to repay the money they borrowed and cut off
funding for programs in which they didn't.
...
...
Colleges and universities stalled and sued, and while a version of the
rule was briefly in effect, it was ended by the Trump administration.

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