At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
traffic light centered, at the entrance.
Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.
If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
charge? What's the law here?
On 10/18/2022 8:21 PM, RichD wrote:
At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
traffic light centered, at the entrance.
Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.
If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
charge? What's the law here?
In California, it is specifically illegal to go through private property in >order to avoid a "traffic control device", which would certainly include a >signal and might also include a stop sign.
But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting through the gas station. If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit
(thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent
was to avoid the "traffic control device".  All the driver needs to say
is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when
I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered
I was late for an appointment and had to leave". How can a police
officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment?  I can maybe see it if the driver simply cuts through without stopping, but if
the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I
think the driver has a defensible case.
On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:
But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting
through the gas station. If a driver pulls into the gas station,
pauses briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds
to exit (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that
his intent was to avoid the "traffic control device".  All the driver
needs to say is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then
changed my mind when I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but
then suddenly remembered I was late for an appointment and had to
leave". How can a police officer possibly gauge the intent of the
driver in that moment?  I can maybe see it if the driver simply cuts
through without stopping, but if the driver pauses at all, if he pulls
up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store but then
immediately backs out and leaves, I think the driver has a defensible
case.
True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.
On 10/19/2022 4:13 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:
But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting
through the gas station. If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses >>> briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit
(thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent
was to avoid the "traffic control device". All the driver needs to say >>> is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when >>> I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered >>> I was late for an appointment and had to leave". How can a police
officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment? I can
maybe see it if the driver simply cuts through without stopping, but if
the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a
parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I
think the driver has a defensible case.
True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.
I thought the a nice answer would be: "The gas station people have been >complaining about people speeding through the station trying to cut the >corner. Your ticket is the fifth today with the same excuse."
On 10/19/2022 4:13 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:
But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just
cutting through the gas station. If a driver pulls into the gas
station, pauses briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then
proceeds to exit (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly
know that his intent was to avoid the "traffic control device".  All
the driver needs to say is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas
and then changed my mind when I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy
gas but then suddenly remembered I was late for an appointment and
had to leave". How can a police officer possibly gauge the intent of
the driver in that moment?  I can maybe see it if the driver simply
cuts through without stopping, but if the driver pauses at all, if he
pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store
but then immediately backs out and leaves, I think the driver has a
defensible case.
True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the
time for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.
I thought the a nice answer would be: "The gas station people have been complaining about people speeding through the station trying to cut the corner. Your ticket is the fifth today with the same excuse."
Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas station
has signs with their prices visible from the street. But pulling into a parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and driving off
definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant was planning
to buy something but changed his mind.
On 10/19/2022 9:20 PM, Barry Gold wrote:Using an app is definitely beyond what the law should require. I have
Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas
station has signs with their prices visible from the street. But
pulling into a parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and
driving off definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant
was planning to buy something but changed his mind.
The sign is required in most states. Also most gas stations have lots
of video cameras.
If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app
I get all that, but I just wonder about the driver who stops to look at
the pump before leaving, gets a ticket, and then decides to challenge
the ticket in court. First of all, we know that cops often don't show
up in court and the ticket is thrown out anyway. But suppose the cop
does show up and makes the point that he was the fifth driver all day to
make that excuse. And the driver looks at the judge and says: "What
other drivers do has nothing to do with me. In my case, I drove up,
looked at the prices and made a decision that I did not want to pay this amount to buy gas. As far as I know, the gas station does not have a requirement that if you enter the property you are required to make a purchase. What I did is no different than a person who enters a grocery store, looks at a few prices, and then decides to leave without making a purchase."  If the driver makes this statement under oath, and let's
say has no criminal record or record of lying to authorities, etc.,
shouldn't the judge give him the benefit of the doubt?
On 10/19/2022 9:20 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas station
has signs with their prices visible from the street. But pulling into a
parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and driving off
definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant was planning
to buy something but changed his mind.
The sign is required in most states.
Also most gas stations have lots
of video cameras.
If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app
On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:
But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting
through the gas station.
If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses
briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit
(thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent
was to avoid the "traffic control device". All the driver needs to say
is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when
I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered
I was late for an appointment and had to leave". How can a police
officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment? I can
maybe see it if the driver simply cuts through without stopping, but if
the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a
parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I
think the driver has a defensible case.
True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.
In misc.legal.moderated, on Wed, 19 Oct 2022 21:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Roy <montanawolf@outlook.com> wrote:
...
If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app
Can't do that while driving. Unsafe.
At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
traffic light centered, at the entrance.
Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.
If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
charge? What's the law here?
In California, it is specifically illegal to go through private property
in order to avoid a "traffic control device", which would certainly
include a signal
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