• short cut

    From RichD@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 18 20:21:24 2022
    At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
    side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
    traffic light centered, at the entrance.

    Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
    turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
    exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.

    If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
    charge? What's the law here?

    --
    Rich

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to RichD on Wed Oct 19 07:10:42 2022
    On 10/18/2022 8:21 PM, RichD wrote:
    At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
    side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
    traffic light centered, at the entrance.

    Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
    turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
    exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.

    If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
    charge? What's the law here?

    In California, it is specifically illegal to go through private property
    in order to avoid a "traffic control device", which would certainly
    include a signal and might also include a stop sign.


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Wed Oct 19 08:56:33 2022
    "Barry Gold" wrote in message news:tiouc9$1uil$1@dont-email.me...

    On 10/18/2022 8:21 PM, RichD wrote:
    At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
    side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
    traffic light centered, at the entrance.

    Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
    turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
    exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.

    If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
    charge? What's the law here?

    In California, it is specifically illegal to go through private property in >order to avoid a "traffic control device", which would certainly include a >signal and might also include a stop sign.



    But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times. Say
    you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the intersection
    on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to skip waiting in
    line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting through the gas
    station. If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses briefly at a pump
    as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit (thus avoiding the
    light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent was to avoid the
    "traffic control device". All the driver needs to say is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered I was late for an
    appointment and had to leave". How can a police officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment? I can maybe see it if the driver
    simply cuts through without stopping, but if the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I think the driver has a defensible case.

    --

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Rick on Wed Oct 19 16:13:15 2022
    On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:

    But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
    Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
    skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting through the gas station.  If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit
    (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent
    was to avoid the "traffic control device".   All the driver needs to say
    is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when
    I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered
    I was late for an appointment and had to leave".  How can a police
    officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment?   I can maybe see it if the driver simply cuts through without stopping, but if
    the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I
    think the driver has a defensible case.

    True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
    just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
    for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Wed Oct 19 16:32:34 2022
    On 10/19/2022 4:13 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:

    But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
    Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
    intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
    skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting
    through the gas station.  If a driver pulls into the gas station,
    pauses briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds
    to exit (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that
    his intent was to avoid the "traffic control device".   All the driver
    needs to say is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then
    changed my mind when I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but
    then suddenly remembered I was late for an appointment and had to
    leave".  How can a police officer possibly gauge the intent of the
    driver in that moment?   I can maybe see it if the driver simply cuts
    through without stopping, but if the driver pauses at all, if he pulls
    up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store but then
    immediately backs out and leaves, I think the driver has a defensible
    case.

    True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
    just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
    for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.

    I thought the a nice answer would be: "The gas station people have been complaining about people speeding through the station trying to cut the
    corner. Your ticket is the fifth today with the same excuse."

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Roy on Wed Oct 19 20:12:26 2022
    "Roy" wrote in message news:tiq1c7$4t6i$1@dont-email.me...

    On 10/19/2022 4:13 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:

    But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
    Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
    intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
    skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting
    through the gas station. If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses >>> briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit
    (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent
    was to avoid the "traffic control device". All the driver needs to say >>> is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when >>> I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered >>> I was late for an appointment and had to leave". How can a police
    officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment? I can
    maybe see it if the driver simply cuts through without stopping, but if
    the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a
    parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I
    think the driver has a defensible case.

    True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
    just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
    for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.

    I thought the a nice answer would be: "The gas station people have been >complaining about people speeding through the station trying to cut the >corner. Your ticket is the fifth today with the same excuse."


    I get all that, but I just wonder about the driver who stops to look at the pump before leaving, gets a ticket, and then decides to challenge the ticket
    in court. First of all, we know that cops often don't show up in court and
    the ticket is thrown out anyway. But suppose the cop does show up and makes the point that he was the fifth driver all day to make that excuse. And the driver looks at the judge and says: "What other drivers do has nothing to
    do with me. In my case, I drove up, looked at the prices and made a
    decision that I did not want to pay this amount to buy gas. As far as I
    know, the gas station does not have a requirement that if you enter the property you are required to make a purchase. What I did is no different
    than a person who enters a grocery store, looks at a few prices, and then decides to leave without making a purchase." If the driver makes this statement under oath, and let's say has no criminal record or record of
    lying to authorities, etc., shouldn't the judge give him the benefit of the doubt?

    --

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Roy on Wed Oct 19 21:20:08 2022
    On 10/19/2022 4:32 PM, Roy wrote:
    On 10/19/2022 4:13 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:

    But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
    Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
    intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
    skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just
    cutting through the gas station.  If a driver pulls into the gas
    station, pauses briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then
    proceeds to exit (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly
    know that his intent was to avoid the "traffic control device".   All
    the driver needs to say is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas
    and then changed my mind when I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy
    gas but then suddenly remembered I was late for an appointment and
    had to leave".  How can a police officer possibly gauge the intent of
    the driver in that moment?   I can maybe see it if the driver simply
    cuts through without stopping, but if the driver pauses at all, if he
    pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a parking space at the store
    but then immediately backs out and leaves, I think the driver has a
    defensible case.

    True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
    just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the
    time for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.

    I thought the a nice answer would be: "The gas station people have been complaining about people speeding through the station trying to cut the corner.  Your ticket is the fifth today with the same excuse."

    "And did you see whether the defendant stopped at a gas pump?"

    ("No I did not" means that he cannot later contradict the defendant's
    testimony that he stopped and left after looking at the price. "Yes I
    did" leads to the next question: "did he stop and look".)

    You see, the prosecution must prove that the defendant went through the
    gas station only to evade the red light. If the cop admits that the
    defendant looked, or that he failed to notice whether the defendant
    looked, the behavior of four other drivers does not go very far toward
    the _beyond a reasonable doubt_ standard.

    Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas station
    has signs with their prices visible from the street. But pulling into a
    parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and driving off
    definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant was planning
    to buy something but changed his mind.




    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Wed Oct 19 21:25:13 2022
    On 10/19/2022 9:20 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

    Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas station
    has signs with their prices visible from the street. But pulling into a parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and driving off
    definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant was planning
    to buy something but changed his mind.





    The sign is required in most states. Also most gas stations have lots
    of video cameras.

    If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Roy on Thu Oct 20 10:49:48 2022
    On 10/19/2022 9:25 PM, Roy wrote:
    On 10/19/2022 9:20 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

    Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas
    station has signs with their prices visible from the street. But
    pulling into a parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and
    driving off definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant
    was planning to buy something but changed his mind.





    The sign is required in most states.  Also most gas stations have lots
    of video cameras.

    If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app
    Using an app is definitely beyond what the law should require. I have
    yet to figure out how to install an app on my "smart" phone.

    But the signs are a definite obstacle to the "comparing prices" defense.
    OTOH if the driver pulls up to a pump, looks at his watch, "decides" he
    doesn't have enough time to fill up now, and drives off, that looks like
    a valid defense to me. (That's about a 5 minute job, compared with the 1
    minute delay for the signal.)





    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Rick on Thu Oct 20 10:50:15 2022
    On 10/19/2022 8:12 PM, Rick wrote:
    I get all that, but I just wonder about the driver who stops to look at
    the pump before leaving, gets a ticket, and then decides to challenge
    the ticket in court.  First of all, we know that cops often don't show
    up in court and the ticket is thrown out anyway.  But suppose the cop
    does show up and makes the point that he was the fifth driver all day to
    make that excuse.  And the driver looks at the judge and says:  "What
    other drivers do has nothing to do with me.  In my case, I drove up,
    looked at the prices and made a decision that I did not want to pay this amount to buy gas.  As far as I know, the gas station does not have a requirement that if you enter the property you are required to make a purchase.  What I did is no different than a person who enters a grocery store, looks at a few prices, and then decides to leave without making a purchase."   If the driver makes this statement under oath, and let's
    say has no criminal record or record of lying to authorities, etc.,
    shouldn't the judge give him the benefit of the doubt?

    I agree with all the above except "the cops often don't show up in
    court." Most police forces pay the cop (often at overtime rates) for
    going to court (including travel time), specifically to discourage
    drivers from going to court with the expectation of an automatic dismissal.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From micky@21:1/5 to montanawolf@outlook.com on Thu Oct 20 11:29:48 2022
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Wed, 19 Oct 2022 21:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Roy <montanawolf@outlook.com> wrote:

    On 10/19/2022 9:20 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

    Except for one thing, of course: where I live, nearly every gas station
    has signs with their prices visible from the street. But pulling into a
    parking slot, opening the door, then closing it and driving off
    definitely leaves open the possibility that the defendant was planning
    to buy something but changed his mind.

    The sign is required in most states.

    Coming from Chicago, I was used to the price being displayed on big
    signs and I missed the signs in NY, but in NYCity and maybe NYState,
    signs giving the prices of gas were illegal until some time in the 70's,
    and then in one step they went from being illegal to being required.
    LOL


    Also most gas stations have lots
    of video cameras.

    If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app

    Can't do that while driving. Unsafe.

    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

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  • From micky@21:1/5 to Gold on Thu Oct 20 11:30:38 2022
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Wed, 19 Oct 2022 16:13:15 -0700 (PDT), Barry
    Gold <bgold@labcats.org> wrote:

    On 10/19/2022 8:56 AM, Rick wrote:

    But let's continue this with an example which I have seen many times.
    Say you have an intersection with a light and at the corner of the
    intersection on the right is a gas station in which it is possible to
    skip waiting in line at the light to make a right turn by just cutting
    through the gas station.

    I did just that 20 or 30 years ago, going north on Rolling Road at
    Winsdor Mill Road.

    If a driver pulls into the gas station, pauses
    briefly at a pump as though to read prices, and then proceeds to exit

    I didnt' think to do that, and I probably would not have done it anyhow.
    When I drive through an intersection on a yellow light, I never look to
    see if there is a cop because my theory is that I looked at the traffic
    and it was not dangerous, and that's really what matters.

    But a cop did stop me when I drove through the gas station. I was on
    the cross street already when he pulled me over. He said to me, "You
    think the laws don't apply to you." That wasn't it at all, but I didn't
    argue with him. I thought I was doing everyone a favor because it was a
    4-lane road that narrowed to 2 lanes, and in rush hour like that day,
    the line at the light could be so long that not everyone got through on
    one green. By my getting out of the way, I was helping myself and
    letting one car behind me get through the intersection on that green,
    and again on every green after that one, until traffic subsided. I
    still don't think that argument would have convinced the cop.

    I paid the ticket.

    This was probably the only time I ever took a short cut through any gas
    station etc. and it was unusual because to go home, I would need to go straight. That one time I was turning right.

    When I drove a taxi in Chicago in 1970, literally every 3rd time I did something wrong, a cop stopped me. It was amazing.

    (thus avoiding the light), how can a cop possibly know that his intent
    was to avoid the "traffic control device". All the driver needs to say
    is "I pulled in with the intent to buy gas and then changed my mind when
    I saw the price" or "I pulled in to buy gas but then suddenly remembered
    I was late for an appointment and had to leave". How can a police
    officer possibly gauge the intent of the driver in that moment? I can
    maybe see it if the driver simply cuts through without stopping, but if
    the driver pauses at all, if he pulls up to a pump or even pulls into a
    parking space at the store but then immediately backs out and leaves, I
    think the driver has a defensible case.

    True. But most drivers don't engage in that little misdirection, they
    just drive straight through, and if a cop notices this and has the time
    for a low-priority offense, he'll get a ticket.


    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Roy@21:1/5 to micky on Thu Oct 20 11:45:38 2022
    On 10/20/2022 11:29 AM, micky wrote:
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Wed, 19 Oct 2022 21:25:13 -0700 (PDT), Roy <montanawolf@outlook.com> wrote:

    ...

    If you want to compare prices, check out the GasBuddy app

    Can't do that while driving. Unsafe.

    True. I have used it in the car but stopped.

    My usual thing is to learn where the cheapest stations in my area are
    and plan on using them. I find that these stations a usually always
    within a few cents of the cheapest price so they are my goto places.

    I also use GasBuddy to plan longer trips. Very handy for finding which
    exits on the Interstates have stations with lower prices.


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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Fri Oct 21 20:11:34 2022
    On October 19, Barry Gold wrote:
    At a nearby train station, there's a boulevard running along
    side. A 50 yard length parking lot runs along this road, with a
    traffic light centered, at the entrance.
    Yesterday I saw a car approach line of traffic at the light. He
    turned into the parking lot, zoomed through the empty space,
    exited at the other end, saving a whole minute.
    If a cop witnesses this, he wants to bust the driver, but on what
    charge? What's the law here?

    In California, it is specifically illegal to go through private property
    in order to avoid a "traffic control device", which would certainly
    include a signal

    The train station is gummit property.

    --
    Rich

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