• Can a court order the release of a classified document?

    From Rich Wales@21:1/5 to All on Wed Oct 5 21:34:39 2022
    Do courts (in the US) have the ability to overrule the intelligence community and order the declassification and release of classified documents without regard to the normal rules for safeguarding sensitive material?

    If SCOTUS were to order such a release, is it realistic to imagine a standoff between officers of the court (trying to execute a court order to seize such material) and officers of the intelligence community (trying to safeguard national security)?

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Rich Wales on Thu Oct 6 06:47:03 2022
    On 10/5/2022 9:34 PM, Rich Wales wrote:
    Do courts (in the US) have the ability to overrule the intelligence community and order the declassification and release of classified documents without regard to the normal rules for safeguarding sensitive material?

    If SCOTUS were to order such a release, is it realistic to imagine a standoff between officers of the court (trying to execute a court order to seize such material) and officers of the intelligence community (trying to safeguard national security)?


    I think a court _could_ do that. I also think it's unlikely that it
    would -- especially the Supreme Court. The SC has shown a lot of
    deference to the Executive when it comes to national security. It would
    take very strong evidence that there was no good reason for classifying
    the document before the Court would step in and order its release.

    I also think that -- if that happened -- there's a strong probability
    that the DoJ (including the intelligence community) would comply. Before
    Trump I would have said a certainty. In the post-Trump era I'm not so sure.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 6 20:57:10 2022
    "Rich Wales" wrote in message news:9d80b306-cc9c-41e0-8f92-1abd953cb464n@googlegroups.com...

    Do courts (in the US) have the ability to overrule the intelligence
    community and order the declassification and release of classified
    documents without regard to the normal rules for safeguarding sensitive >material?

    If SCOTUS were to order such a release, is it realistic to imagine a
    standoff between officers of the court (trying to execute a court order to >seize such material) and officers of the intelligence community (trying to >safeguard national security)?

    I believe there are specific rules and procedures governing declassification
    of documents by courts. Check this out:

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18a/compiledact-96-456/section-6


    --

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  • From Elle N@21:1/5 to Rich Wales on Fri Oct 7 11:13:18 2022
    My take:

    On Wednesday, October 5, 2022 at 11:34:43 PM UTC-5, Rich Wales wrote:
    Do courts (in the US) have the ability to overrule the intelligence community and order the declassification and release of classified documents without regard to the normal rules for safeguarding sensitive material?


    The only lawful, possible paths I see for a court to declassify a document are either by ruling:

    -- that the Presidential Executive Order (EO 13526) for classifying a document was not followed.

    or

    -- that the Presidential Executive Order for declassifying a document (EO 12356), in part or in whole, is unconstitutional. I figure this could have the effect of a court allowing a President to declassify any way he or she wants, to the extent that this
    way is logical, including document-able, and does not lead to chaos.

    A President, while in office, can rescind or re-write Executive Orders at any time. After all, it is the Office of the President that issues executive orders. But I think a court would say that the validity of a rescission or re-write depends on whether
    the President followed the proper procedures. So far one Court of Appeals has said exactly this as follows:

    In the present dispute between Donald Trump and the government, Trump has said to the press that he has de-classified certain or all documents. If a court does // not // take the position that the procedures in, let's face it, Trump's Office's executive
    orders must be followed, then I think the court would be creating a Gordian Knot. Said Gordian Knot cannot, by definition, be undone using the usual rules of the law. Instead, the knot is undone by slicing heavy-handedly through the knot, and so all the
    legal rules, with something like a butcher knife. In other words, to rule that Trump did de-classify these documents, the court would have to throw out a lot of law. The courts do not like to do this.

    In September, the U. S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit flatly asserted that Trump had presented no evidence of de-classifying documents. This to me implies that the Court believes that, yup, Mr. Trump, there are procedures to follow for documents
    to become de-classified. Furthermore Mr. Trump, documents marked classified cannot become declassified merely by your thinking in your head that they are declassified.

    I think a plaintiff could certainly challenge whether the procedure to classify was followed. I expect a court might very well say an agency or individual did not do xyz as required by the EO to classify a document, so the document is not classified. (
    Though for national security reasons, I would also expect the court might very well give the agency or individual another crack at classifying the document properly.)

    If SCOTUS were to order such a release, is it realistic to imagine a standoff between officers of the court (trying to execute a court order to seize such material) and officers of the intelligence community (trying to safeguard national security)?

    Not to be too cute, but I think what you describe right above is more properly called a coup d'etat. In the event of such a coup, the law is whatever the people in power say it is.

    I do not know if Judge Cannon is an idiot. Many leading Democratic Senators voted for Cannon's confirmation. I know that the two Trump appointees to the 11th Circuit were confirmed by a vote solely of GOPers. The Appeals Court Trump appointees certainly
    flatly rejected any insinuation that Trump had declassified anything.

    If forced to bet, I think a majority of SCOTUS will reject Trump's latest appeal. If a certain Justice smartens up to how his wife is embarrassing him, it could even be a 9-0 decision. But I figure it will be at least a 5-4 decision.

    https://dornsife.usc.edu/news/stories/2609/what-is-classified-information-and-who-gets-to-decide/#:~:text=Classified%20information%20is%20that%20which,mass%20destruction%20and%20their%20proliferation.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/14/us/politics/trump-classified-documents.html

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 7 21:43:29 2022
    According to Rick <rick@nospam.com>:
    I believe there are specific rules and procedures governing declassification >of documents by courts. Check this out:

    That was part of the Classified Information Procedures act which
    says how courts use classified information in court cases.

    In a few situations a court can authorize the disclosure of
    classified info, but it's still classified.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18a/compiledact-96-456

    (Who came up with the horrible word "classified"?)

    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to John Levine on Sat Oct 8 04:39:50 2022
    On 10/7/2022 9:43 PM, John Levine wrote:
    According to Rick <rick@nospam.com>:
    I believe there are specific rules and procedures governing declassification >> of documents by courts. Check this out:

    That was part of the Classified Information Procedures act which
    says how courts use classified information in court cases.

    In a few situations a court can authorize the disclosure of
    classified info, but it's still classified.

    https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18a/compiledact-96-456

    (Who came up with the horrible word "classified"?)

    What's wrong with "classified"? It's the simple past tense of the verb
    "to classify" -- that is, to divide things into different classes by
    some criterion.

    In this case we have four main classes plus some subclasses:
    Unclassified: disclosure would not damage US security
    Confidential: disclosure would cause some damage to US security
    Secret: disclosure would cause serious damage to US security
    Top Secret: disclosure would cause exceptionally grave damage to US security

    Those are further affected by the "sensitive compartmented information"
    (SCI) designation. These are actually a form of "need to know", which
    actually applies to *all* classified info -- even if you have a "secret" clearance, you cannot see all documents classified "secret": you are
    supposed to have access only to information that you need in order to do
    your job.

    I held a "secret" clearance from 2001 to 2003. But I would not have been granted access to design details of the Joint Strike Fighter program
    because I wasn't working on the JSF. (I did some work on unclassified
    parts of that plane, but nothing involving the classified part.)

    SCI categories include things like CNWDI (Critical Nuclear Weapons
    Design Inforamtion -- details of how to build nuclear weapons), HUMINT
    (data that could identify our intelligence "assets" aka spies), SIGINT
    (signals intelligence -- what the NSA does). Others include NOFORN (no
    foreign -- limited to citizens of the US) and NOCONTRACTOR (only for US government employees, not for employees of defense contractors).

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to John Levine on Sat Oct 8 07:02:08 2022
    "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

    (Who came up with the horrible word "classified"?)

    Sorry, that's classified.

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 8 07:50:05 2022
    My Army tour (1970s) was in intelligence so I possessed lots of the
    special ones mentioned in the press. About 90% of my time was spent
    studying the equipment used by our enemies at the time. They stuck a
    lot of special words after the basic classification. I remember SECRET
    ROOT BEER for an example which concerned Russian Helicopters. Another
    very important one was CRYPTO which included handling the encryption
    keys for our units communications gear.

    I even had a book on an encryption device with a page marked "SECRET
    CRYPTO This page intentionally left blank. Reverse blank". It was
    important that this page was handled as a SECRET document and
    inventoried during the periodic audits when I had to certify that the
    book was intact and had all it's pages. When a previous revision
    removed the data on that page, he blank one was inserted so the page
    count and numbering didn't change.

    Any judicial action on a something classified would have to be on
    procedural grounds like the document's author didn't apply the proper
    criteria on deciding the classification or that the it was declassified
    by the a person with the authority to do it. You can't just look at
    something and decide it's classification without knowing the total
    context like how the information was obtained. A spy's life could be endangered.

    Roy

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Roy on Sat Oct 8 11:11:34 2022
    On 10/8/2022 7:50 AM, Roy wrote:
    Any judicial action on a something classified would have to be on
    procedural grounds like the document's author didn't apply the proper criteria on deciding the classification or that the it was declassified
    by the a person with the authority to do it.  You can't just look at something and decide it's classification without knowing the total
    context like how the information was obtained.  A spy's life could be endangered.

    Um, yeah. Doh!

    OTOH, my father was a radar technician in WWII. When he joined the Navy
    they sent him to a school to learn how to fix the radars in the Navy's airplanes. He somehow brought home one of the books from that course. It
    was marked "British: Secret; US: Confidential". Apparently there was a
    policy in the US Navy that only commissioned officers(*) could have a
    Secret clearance, so it had to have a lower classification in the US.

    And there wasn't anything in that book that you wouldn't find in the
    ARRL(+) handbook. I dunno, maybe it mentioned the word "RADAR"
    somewhere... That would have been plenty "Secret" enough for WWII.
    Nowadays everybody knows about radar (and it's no longer spelled like an acronym).

    (*) Or maybe Warrant Officers, which was somewhere in between the E
    (enlisted man) levels and the O (commissioned officer) levels.

    (+) American Radio Relay League, the organization for ham radio operators
    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Sat Oct 8 11:15:39 2022
    On 10/8/2022 11:11 AM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 10/8/2022 7:50 AM, Roy wrote:
    Any judicial action on a something classified would have to be on
    procedural grounds like the document's author didn't apply the proper
    criteria on deciding the classification or that the it was
    declassified by the a person with the authority to do it.  You can't
    just look at something and decide it's classification without knowing
    the total context like how the information was obtained.  A spy's life
    could be endangered.

    Um, yeah. Doh!

    OTOH, my father was a radar technician in WWII. When he joined the Navy
    they sent him to a school to learn how to fix the radars in the Navy's airplanes. He somehow brought home one of the books from that course. It
    was marked "British: Secret; US: Confidential". Apparently there was a
    policy in the US Navy that only commissioned officers(*) could have a
    Secret clearance, so it had to have a lower classification in the US.

    And there wasn't anything in that book that you wouldn't find in the
    ARRL(+) handbook. I dunno, maybe it mentioned the word "RADAR"
    somewhere... That would have been plenty "Secret" enough for WWII.
    Nowadays everybody knows about radar (and it's no longer spelled like an acronym).

    (*) Or maybe Warrant Officers, which was somewhere in between the E
    (enlisted man) levels and the O (commissioned officer) levels.

    (+) American Radio Relay League, the organization for ham radio operators


    You are safe. I think Confidential expires in 25 years. Secret
    should expire in 50 years. I wrote a secret book in 1974 and I am
    waiting the two years so I can get a copy. I think it was entitled
    "Field Army Computer Technology -- Non Warsaw Pact". There was an
    appendix which covered the Russian Army as a comparison. Probably will
    never see the light of day since it was Top Secret/Special Intelligence codeword (TS/SI XXXXXX). I searched for the XXXXXX codeword on the
    Internet and didn't find it it that context.

    There are exceptions to the expiration dates such as cryptokeys. The
    cryptokeys my unit used had to be destroyed within 24 hours of use.
    They were paper punch cards so we cut them up and then stuck them in a
    blender with some water, pulped them. and then poured them down a toilet.

    Roy, AA4RE

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