Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't really know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their states to not
carry the banned books.

First obvious question: if a person is a resident of stupidstateX and
happens to travel to another state where such a book is OK and brings it
home to stupidstateX, is there some action the state could take against
that person [although I can hardly see how the state could find out that
that happened -- maybe if some "friend" collects a bounty for reporting
that they saw the nasty-book on the person's bookshelf.

And I'm wondering about internet sellers, like Amazon and Barnes&Noble.
Does the state have any way to enjoin internet sellers not based in their
state to do their bidding and force they to refuse to sell the nasty-books
to a shipping address in the state?

And: Amazon lets you "loan" books, and it is and by email. That is, I
tell Amazon "loan my book to samnobody@gmail.com" and I mostly don't have
to know or care where sam resides. Sam reads it [or not] and it shows back
up in my library to be loaned again. So.. I set up a "banned book"
website and I offer to loan for a week any "banned book" they'd like to
read at no cost and no questions asked. Could _I_ get in trouble in stupidstateX for doing that if one of the people I loan the book happens to reside in stupidstateX?

/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
--> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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In misc.legal.moderated, on Tue, 20 Sep 2022 21:00:39 -0700 (PDT),
Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't really >know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their states to not >carry the banned books.

I think that is related, and I think they could not and have not tried.

First obvious question: if a person is a resident of stupidstateX and
happens to travel to another state where such a book is OK and brings it
home to stupidstateX, is there some action the state could take against

Only if it came with an abortion.

that person [although I can hardly see how the state could find out that
that happened -- maybe if some "friend" collects a bounty for reporting
that they saw the nasty-book on the person's bookshelf.

I have not looked again since you posted, but I don't think any of the
book banning we've heard about affected bookstores or private parties,
or even private schools for children. Mostly public elementary and
probably high schools and maybe public libraries.
.....

/Bernie\

--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.

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"Bernie Cosell" wrote in message news:pockihh92bc9diaope9li9g22ot2581sf3@4ax.com...

Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't really >know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their states to not >carry the banned books.

First obvious question: if a person is a resident of stupidstateX and
happens to travel to another state where such a book is OK and brings it
home to stupidstateX, is there some action the state could take against
that person [although I can hardly see how the state could find out that
that happened -- maybe if some "friend" collects a bounty for reporting
that they saw the nasty-book on the person's bookshelf.

And I'm wondering about internet sellers, like Amazon and Barnes&Noble.
Does the state have any way to enjoin internet sellers not based in their >state to do their bidding and force they to refuse to sell the nasty-books
to a shipping address in the state?

And: Amazon lets you "loan" books, and it is and by email. That is, I
tell Amazon "loan my book to samnobody@gmail.com" and I mostly don't have
to know or care where sam resides. Sam reads it [or not] and it shows back >up in my library to be loaned again. So.. I set up a "banned book"
website and I offer to loan for a week any "banned book" they'd like to
read at no cost and no questions asked. Could _I_ get in trouble in >stupidstateX for doing that if one of the people I loan the book happens to >reside in stupidstateX?

/Bernie\

I haven't heard of any serious effort to ban possession of books. I have
heard of efforts to ban certain books in schools and even libraries, but
that's been mainly in the context of access by children. Banning the sale
of books to adults is a pretty hard sell, and banning possession of legally acquired books by adults would clearly seem unconstitutional.

--

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On 9/20/2022 9:00 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't really know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their states to not carry the banned books.

First obvious question: if a person is a resident of stupidstateX and
happens to travel to another state where such a book is OK and brings it
home to stupidstateX, is there some action the state could take against
that person [although I can hardly see how the state could find out that
that happened -- maybe if some "friend" collects a bounty for reporting
that they saw the nasty-book on the person's bookshelf.

And I'm wondering about internet sellers, like Amazon and Barnes&Noble.
Does the state have any way to enjoin internet sellers not based in their state to do their bidding and force they to refuse to sell the nasty-books
to a shipping address in the state?

And: Amazon lets you "loan" books, and it is and by email. That is, I
tell Amazon "loan my book to samnobody@gmail.com" and I mostly don't have
to know or care where sam resides. Sam reads it [or not] and it shows back up in my library to be loaned again. So.. I set up a "banned book"
website and I offer to loan for a week any "banned book" they'd like to
read at no cost and no questions asked. Could _I_ get in trouble in stupidstateX for doing that if one of the people I loan the book happens to reside in stupidstateX?

/Bernie\

Amazon has a presence in just about every state: Amazon stores, Whole
Foods markets, warehouses so they can get what you ordered in 1 or 2
days if you're willing to pay the extra shipping charge. Barnes and
Noble probably have at least one store in each state, so they are
(technically) bound by stupidstateX's laws.

IIRC the laws about banning books either (a) apply only to schools,
public libraries, and other government entities, or (b) apply only to
commerce -- selling the book.

But if you, who do not have any connection with state X, decide to make
the book available (by "lending" a Kindle or Nook copy), you have not
committed a crime in state stupidstateX.

You would be on slightly shakier ground if you were to advertise it as available to residents of stupidstateX. Even then, though, there would
be the question of jurisdiction. You aren't in stupidstateX, so
stupidstateX's courts don't have jurisdiction over you. But maybe you
should be careful not to set foot in stupidstateX in the future.

Of course, all this ignores one key fact: those laws are unconstitutional:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of
speech, or of the press...

The one thing you need to be careful of is "obscenity", as defined by
the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

One Callahanner (first name Frank) went to prison for that. He wrote a
very explicit story, and was lured into emailing it to an FBI agent. The
FBI then charged him with interstate transportation of obscenity, and
tried him in the place where the agent was located (and where
"contemporary community standards" were much stricter than where Frank
lived.

But that only applies to something that violates Federal laws (like transmitting obscenity via the mail or electronic communication), not to
state laws.
--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 08:20:50 -0700, Rick wrote:

"Bernie Cosell" wrote in message news:pockihh92bc9diaope9li9g22ot2581sf3@4ax.com...

Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't
really know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their
states to not carry the banned books.

First obvious question: if a person is a resident of stupidstateX and >>happens to travel to another state where such a book is OK and brings it >>home to stupidstateX, is there some action the state could take against >>that person [although I can hardly see how the state could find out that >>that happened -- maybe if some "friend" collects a bounty for reporting >>that they saw the nasty-book on the person's bookshelf.

And I'm wondering about internet sellers, like Amazon and Barnes&Noble. >>Does the state have any way to enjoin internet sellers not based in
their state to do their bidding and force they to refuse to sell the >>nasty-books to a shipping address in the state?

And: Amazon lets you "loan" books, and it is and by email. That is, I >>tell Amazon "loan my book to samnobody@gmail.com" and I mostly don't
have to know or care where sam resides. Sam reads it [or not] and it
shows back up in my library to be loaned again. So.. I set up a
"banned book" website and I offer to loan for a week any "banned book" >>they'd like to read at no cost and no questions asked. Could _I_ get in >>trouble in stupidstateX for doing that if one of the people I loan the
book happens to reside in stupidstateX?

/Bernie\

I haven't heard of any serious effort to ban possession of books. I
have heard of efforts to ban certain books in schools and even
libraries, but that's been mainly in the context of access by children. Banning the sale of books to adults is a pretty hard sell, and banning possession of legally acquired books by adults would clearly seem unconstitutional.

Unless you declare the contents illegal ? Penthouse October 1984 springs
to mind.

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Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

} Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't really
} know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their states to not
} carry the banned books.

[...]

} And I'm wondering about internet sellers, like Amazon and Barnes&Noble.
} Does the state have any way to enjoin internet sellers not based in their
} state to do their bidding and force they to refuse to sell the nasty-books
} to a shipping address in the state?

Looks like I managed to guess at the, in retrospect, obvious. From today's WaPo:

A book about sexuality or racism might not be allowed in your school,
your local library, even your own home. But online, it can be found as
an e-book in another library, less legally on torrenting sites or for
purchase in any online bookstore. The concepts in that book, deemed too
dangerous to young minds by some legislators or parents, are freely
available on educational websites and Wikipedia, recapped on social
media and documented in mainstream articles.

[...]

The Brooklyn Public Library is at the center of the national battle
between limiting and expanding book access for teenagers. In April, it
launched its Books Unbanned program, offering free online access to its
entire collection for 13- to 21-year-olds who send an email. Johnson
says it has already issued more than 5,100 cards and checked out 20,000
materials as part of the program. The program is funded independently,
which is why it can offer books to people out of state.

/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
--> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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On 9/22/2022 3:20 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:

Unless you declare the contents illegal ? Penthouse October 1984 springs
to mind.

The only thing I could find about that issue was a libel suit for
allegations that the plaintiffs were running an organized crime "front".

That would not affect sales, possession, etc. Just that -- if Penthouse couldn't prove that what they printed was true(*) then they would have
to pay damages to the plaintiffs. (Which damages would probably not have
come anywhere near wrecking Penthouse.)

(*) Or, alternatively, that the plaintiffs were "public figures" and
that Penthouse did not know the article was false or act with "reckless disregard" for whether the article was true or false.

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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"Jethro_uk" wrote in message news:tgh4vf$237ps$1@dont-email.me...

On Wed, 21 Sep 2022 08:20:50 -0700, Rick wrote:

"Bernie Cosell" wrote in message
news:pockihh92bc9diaope9li9g22ot2581sf3@4ax.com...

Several states are hell-bent on banning a bunch of books. I don't >>>really know/care about whether they can force booksellers in their
states to not carry the banned books.

First obvious question: if a person is a resident of stupidstateX and >>>happens to travel to another state where such a book is OK and brings it >>>home to stupidstateX, is there some action the state could take against >>>that person [although I can hardly see how the state could find out that >>>that happened -- maybe if some "friend" collects a bounty for reporting >>>that they saw the nasty-book on the person's bookshelf.

And I'm wondering about internet sellers, like Amazon and Barnes&Noble. >>>Does the state have any way to enjoin internet sellers not based in
their state to do their bidding and force they to refuse to sell the >>>nasty-books to a shipping address in the state?

And: Amazon lets you "loan" books, and it is and by email. That is, I >>>tell Amazon "loan my book to samnobody@gmail.com" and I mostly don't
have to know or care where sam resides. Sam reads it [or not] and it >>>shows back up in my library to be loaned again. So.. I set up a
"banned book" website and I offer to loan for a week any "banned book" >>>they'd like to read at no cost and no questions asked. Could _I_ get in >>>trouble in stupidstateX for doing that if one of the people I loan the >>>book happens to reside in stupidstateX?

/Bernie\

I haven't heard of any serious effort to ban possession of books. I
have heard of efforts to ban certain books in schools and even
libraries, but that's been mainly in the context of access by children.
Banning the sale of books to adults is a pretty hard sell, and banning
possession of legally acquired books by adults would clearly seem
unconstitutional.

Unless you declare the contents illegal ? Penthouse October 1984 springs
to mind.

Penthouse was certainly controversial in its time, but nowadays I rarely
hear anyone talk about it. The issue you cite seems to be readily available
on both Amazon and eBay with no obvious warnings or restrictions and at
prices in the $8 to $10 range.

--

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It appears that Barry Gold <bgold@labcats.org> said:

On 9/22/2022 3:20 AM, Jethro_uk wrote:

Unless you declare the contents illegal ? Penthouse October 1984 springs
to mind.

The only thing I could find about that issue was a libel suit for
allegations that the plaintiffs were running an organized crime "front".

It contained nude pictures of pornogaphic actress Traci Lords, who was
16 at the time. By most definitions, that was CSAM, although the
publisher did not know because she lied about her age. When people
learned her actual age, video stores yanked her underage videos.

This is a corner case, unrelated to the current attempts to ban books
that are not obscene by any definition that courts use.


--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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