Lying to get someone to go with you.

Assuming the worst case scenario for Gov. DeSantis, and those in two
others states, if the people who were sent to Martha's Vineyard etc by
telling them there would be jobs there, better chance for green card,
etc., would that be a crime? Kidnapping?

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it
is "like a ghost town". No jobs.

--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.

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On 9/16/2022 9:52 PM, micky wrote:

Lying to get someone to go with you.

Assuming the worst case scenario for Gov. DeSantis, and those in two
others states, if the people who were sent to Martha's Vineyard etc by telling them there would be jobs there, better chance for green card,
etc., would that be a crime? Kidnapping?

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it
is "like a ghost town". No jobs.

As was mentioned in a post a few weeks ago, federal kidnapping has to
involve intent plus a ransom or reward.

The proper charge would seem to be

25 CFR § 11.404 False imprisonment.

A person commits a misdemeanor if he or she knowingly restrains another unlawfully so as to interfere substantially with his or her liberty.

Note that it requires restraint.

I believe the people were told they were being transported to
Massachusetts where the unemployment rate is 3.6% which is lower than
Texas. So they get a better chance for a job in Massachusetts.

They have been moved to Joint Base Cape Cod which has handled refugees
in the past.

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On 9/16/2022 9:52 PM, micky wrote:

Lying to get someone to go with you.

Assuming the worst case scenario for Gov. DeSantis, and those in two
others states, if the people who were sent to Martha's Vineyard etc by telling them there would be jobs there, better chance for green card,
etc., would that be a crime? Kidnapping?

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it
is "like a ghost town". No jobs.

It might be fraud, if you consider "getting them to go somewhere" to be "something of value". [For example, if I promise you a hamburger in
exchange for doing something, then don't fulfill my part of the promise
AND the prosecution can prove that I never intended to give you the
hamburger, that's fraud.]

Or, since you've gotten them to do something that took a signficiant
amount of time, it might be a violation of wage and hours laws.

Whatever it is, it's despicable.

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"micky" wrote in message news:4fn9ihl04r21ujdmlud88ai9atv7q39i7k@4ax.com...

Lying to get someone to go with you.

Assuming the worst case scenario for Gov. DeSantis, and those in two
others states, if the people who were sent to Martha's Vineyard etc by >telling them there would be jobs there, better chance for green card,
etc., would that be a crime? Kidnapping?

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it
is "like a ghost town". No jobs.

Problem is we don't really know what they were told or the wording of
anything they were asked to sign.

Also, if they were in the country illegally to begin with, then they were technically under arrest or at least under control of authorities, so I'm
not sure how kidnapping would really apply.

--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/17/2022 10:31 AM, Barry Gold wrote:

On 9/16/2022 9:52 PM, micky wrote:

Lying to get someone to go with you.

Assuming the worst case scenario for Gov. DeSantis, and those in two
others states, if the people who were sent to Martha's Vineyard etc by
telling them there would be jobs there, better chance for green card,
etc., would that be a crime?  Kidnapping?

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it
is "like a ghost town".  No jobs.

It might be fraud, if you consider "getting them to go somewhere" to be "something of value". [For example, if I promise you a hamburger in
exchange for doing something, then don't fulfill my part of the promise
AND the prosecution can prove that I never intended to give you the hamburger, that's fraud.]

Or, since you've gotten them to do something that took a signficiant
amount of time, it might be a violation of wage and hours laws.

Whatever it is, it's despicable.

Note: It appears that Massachusetts authorities have helped the
transportees into a job-placement program, so they may have benefited
after all. So perhaps no crime, and even a tort might be difficult to
establish since they are (assuming the placement is reasonably
successful) better off than before. [Although a lawsuit for the
(relatively trivial) cost of a Greyhound ticket back to Texas might be justified. If anybody wanted to.]



--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/18/2022 8:10 AM, Rick wrote:

Problem is we don't really know what they were told or the wording of anything they were asked to sign.

Also, if they were in the country illegally to begin with, then they
were technically under arrest or at least under control of authorities,
so I'm not sure how kidnapping would really apply.

Only the Federal Government -- specifically CBD (Customs and Border
Patrol) has the authority to arrest people for being here illegally.
That was decided in a moderately famous case involving Joe Arpaio,
former Sheriff of Maricopa County (Phoenix, AZ). He would have gone to
prison for Contempt of Court, but Trump pardoned him. So that excuse
won't hold water.

It's illegal -- kidnapping -- to move somebody from one place to another without their consent (except when you have a legally valid reason to do
that, like an arrest, or rescuing somebody who is unconscious and unable
to give consent).

And if they were lured onto the bus with promises of good jobs in Massachusetts, and then some of them changed their minds and wanted off,
it would have been False Imprisonment to refuse to let them off at the
next safe place to stop. (Certainly no later than when the bus stopped
to refuel.)

But in this case I suspect they went willingly, lured by the promise of
jobs. Which, of course, didn't materialize.

The only crime I can think of that might apply is Fraud, and even that
is questionable because the people who talked them into the bus ride
didn't drive any material benefit.

From the Wikipedia article: In law, fraud is intentional deception to
secure unfair or unlawful gain, or to deprive a victim of a legal right.
This falls more under the rubric of a hoax, which is (usually) not a
crime. It might not even be a tort, although I suppose a court might
reasonably order Texas authorities to pay for transportation (e.g.,
Greyhound) back to where they were picked up.



--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:tg7a7u$9e0$1@gioia.aioe.org:

Also, if they were in the country illegally to begin with, then
they were technically under arrest or at least under control of
authorities, so I'm not sure how kidnapping would really apply.

They were in the country legally, having applied for asylum. They were
told they would get housing and jobs. But the town wasn't notified so
that they could be provided for. They were also given misleading
information about whom to notify of their changed addresses with
respect to their asylum applicaitons. The whole thing was just
disgusting. The people who carried it out should be sent to jail.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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According to Rick <rick@nospam.com>:

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it
is "like a ghost town". No jobs.

That's not quite true, some places stay open into the fall and a few all winter. But the population is only 15,000 and it's unsurprising that it
can't absorb a lot of unskilled labor who don't speak English.

Problem is we don't really know what they were told or the wording of >anything they were asked to sign.

Also, if they were in the country illegally to begin with, then they were >technically under arrest or at least under control of authorities, so I'm
not sure how kidnapping would really apply.

I believe the Venezuelans have applied to be refugees, so they're not
exactly illegal, they're awaiting a court's decision, which given how understaffed our immigration courts are, will not happen for a long
time.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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On 9/18/2022 10:29 AM, Barry Gold wrote:

Note: It appears that Massachusetts authorities have helped the
transportees into a job-placement program, so they may have benefited
after all. So perhaps no crime, and even a tort might be difficult to establish since they are (assuming the placement is reasonably
successful) better off than before. [Although a lawsuit for the
(relatively trivial) cost of a Greyhound ticket back to Texas might be justified. If anybody wanted to.]

Massachusetts has a lower unemployment rate than Texas so one can assume
better chances for jobs.

A number of sanctuary places advertise being welcoming to immigrants so
one can assume things would be "better" than Texas

As someone previously posted:

"Problem is we don't really know what they were told or the wording of
anything they were asked to sign."

I think we can all agree it is "despicable" that thousand of immigrants
are coming across the border and the federal government does little to
nothing to assist them. It is a national problem and not one limited to
the border states.

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In misc.legal.moderated, on Sun, 18 Sep 2022 10:29:58 -0700 (PDT), "John Levine" <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:

According to Rick <rick@nospam.com>:

All the tourists leave Martha's Vineyard after Labor Day Weekend and it >>>is "like a ghost town". No jobs.

That's not quite true, some places stay open into the fall and a few all >winter. But the population is only 15,000 and it's unsurprising that it >can't absorb a lot of unskilled labor who don't speak English.

Right, there are jobs. Should have said no job vacancies. There might
even be a few of those but those who came to work for the summer and
left had their jobs filled by the day after labor day by those who want
to stay but their employer closed.

Problem is we don't really know what they were told or the wording of >>anything they were asked to sign.

Also, if they were in the country illegally to begin with, then they were >>technically under arrest or at least under control of authorities, so I'm >>not sure how kidnapping would really apply.

I believe the Venezuelans have applied to be refugees,

Right.

so they're not
exactly illegal, they're awaiting a court's decision, which given how >understaffed our immigration courts are, will not happen for a long
time.

I read that two of them have court dates in El Paso on Tuesday.
Wouldn't be surprised if they told the recruiter that and she (Perla)
said, "Don't worry abou that."

I don't accept the notion that one can just compare unemployment rates.
That's like the polls that show X% plan to vote Rep and Y% play to vote
Dem, without paying attention to how those people are spread out, in
what districts they are.

In massechusettes, there might be plenty of job openings for computer programmers and in Texas they might be for vegetable pickers.

We don't know *exactly* what was said to them but we know the thrust of
it. And they lied to them. Anything like this based on lying is evil.

--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.

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