• signatures

    From Bernie Cosell@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 23 11:10:53 2021
    I'm constantly asked to sign stuff.. from checks to contracts to this's and that's. I don't fully understand the point. When I did some financial
    thing I had to sign like six forms, and my signature was barely
    recognizable just from the first to the last. When I compare signatures across years [e.g., when I signed my will], it was hardly recognizable a
    being more than vaguely akin to my recent signatures.

    I have seen mention of "handwriting analysis", but I don't understand how
    it works. Can they *really* take two years-apart signatures and determine
    that they were [or were not] actually signed by me? If someone tried hard
    to duplicate my scrawl, can they really figure out it is a forgery?

    Is there a rule that my "signature" actually has to be my name? Can I
    decide on some [illegible??] "cipher" and just call that my signature?

    /Bernie\
    --
    Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
    bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
    --> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Sat Oct 23 16:06:00 2021
    On 10/23/2021 11:10 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
    I'm constantly asked to sign stuff.. from checks to contracts to this's and that's. I don't fully understand the point. When I did some financial thing I had to sign like six forms, and my signature was barely
    recognizable just from the first to the last. When I compare signatures across years [e.g., when I signed my will], it was hardly recognizable a being more than vaguely akin to my recent signatures.

    I have seen mention of "handwriting analysis", but I don't understand how
    it works. Can they *really* take two years-apart signatures and determine that they were [or were not] actually signed by me? If someone tried hard
    to duplicate my scrawl, can they really figure out it is a forgery?

    Is there a rule that my "signature" actually has to be my name? Can I
    decide on some [illegible??] "cipher" and just call that my signature?

    Any mark you make that is intended as a signature is a signature. Hence
    the proverbial "X" from illiterate people. But it doesn't have to be an X.

    If you are signifying agreement with whatever-it-is, it's a signature.
    (Note the same root as "sign" and "significant")


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Sat Oct 23 16:47:14 2021
    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

    I'm constantly asked to sign stuff.. from checks to contracts to
    this's and that's. I don't fully understand the point. When I
    did some financial thing I had to sign like six forms, and my
    signature was barely recognizable just from the first to the last.
    When I compare signatures across years [e.g., when I signed my
    will], it was hardly recognizable a being more than vaguely akin
    to my recent signatures.

    I have seen mention of "handwriting analysis", but I don't
    understand how it works. Can they *really* take two years-apart
    signatures and determine that they were [or were not] actually
    signed by me? If someone tried hard to duplicate my scrawl, can
    they really figure out it is a forgery?

    Not always, but often they can detect a forgery. Because it's not so
    much about what your signature looks like, but how you've written it.
    They analyze how hard you press on different parts of different
    letters, for example. That kind of thing is not obvious from just
    looking at a signature, and is very difficult to fake.

    Is there a rule that my "signature" actually has to be my name?
    Can I decide on some [illegible??] "cipher" and just call that my
    signature?

    Your signature is anything you say it is. You can even tell someone
    else (say, your spouse) to write your name (even without a Power of
    Attorney). If you intend that as your signature, it is.

    There have been cases where a company has been sued on a contract,
    where the "signature" found by the court is their logo or letterhead
    on the document.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Sat Oct 23 21:30:44 2021
    "Bernie Cosell" wrote in message news:dle8ngtgpf9gj93a23rdg50asqoil67mim@4ax.com...

    I'm constantly asked to sign stuff.. from checks to contracts to this's and >that's. I don't fully understand the point. When I did some financial >thing I had to sign like six forms, and my signature was barely
    recognizable just from the first to the last. When I compare signatures >across years [e.g., when I signed my will], it was hardly recognizable a >being more than vaguely akin to my recent signatures.

    I have seen mention of "handwriting analysis", but I don't understand how
    it works. Can they *really* take two years-apart signatures and determine >that they were [or were not] actually signed by me? If someone tried hard
    to duplicate my scrawl, can they really figure out it is a forgery?

    Is there a rule that my "signature" actually has to be my name? Can I
    decide on some [illegible??] "cipher" and just call that my signature?

    /Bernie\

    There is also the added complexity that many signatures nowadays are
    electronic where you don't actually physically write anything. I closed on
    a loan a while back where I believe all the paperwork was done online with
    no actual physical signatures taking place. And since Covid happened, I
    don't think I've actually physically signed any credit card receipt.

    --

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Rick on Sun Oct 24 07:55:58 2021
    "Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sl2eqf$1c2e$1@gioia.aioe.org:

    There is also the added complexity that many signatures nowadays
    are electronic where you don't actually physically write anything.
    I closed on a loan a while back where I believe all the
    paperwork was done online with no actual physical signatures
    taking place. And since Covid happened, I don't think I've
    actually physically signed any credit card receipt.

    Not only that, but even physical signatures are disappearing. If you
    ever write a check, these days the bank scans it in and then destroys
    the original, making authentication more difficult.

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Bernie Cosell@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 1 16:02:23 2022
    Another dumb layman question: signatures [at least mine :o)] seem to be almost-random scrawls. They vary all the time. From what I can tell my
    bank no longer bothers with "checking" my signature on checks.. it just
    cashes them.

    question: on what basis can I dispute something that someone says I signed?
    Is my just saying "I didn't sign that" sufficient to make the contract, or whatever, go away? And on the other: what is my recourse if someone comes
    up with some contract or something that I "signed" but I hadn't. I
    consider "graphology" as, basically, snake oil.

    /Bernie\
    --
    Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
    bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
    --> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Sat Oct 1 23:16:57 2022
    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

    Another dumb layman question: signatures [at least mine :o)] seem
    to be almost-random scrawls. They vary all the time. From what
    I can tell my bank no longer bothers with "checking" my signature
    on checks.. it just cashes them.

    question: on what basis can I dispute something that someone says
    I signed? Is my just saying "I didn't sign that" sufficient to
    make the contract, or whatever, go away? And on the other: what
    is my recourse if someone comes up with some contract or something
    that I "signed" but I hadn't. I consider "graphology" as,
    basically, snake oil.

    That's an interesting question, especially these days with electronic signatures and banks taking photos instead of actual checks.

    The answer is that you can contest your "signature" at any time. The
    issue will be proving whether it's your signature or not. You have
    the burden of providing evidence that it's not your signature - your
    claim it's not should satisfy that. Then it's the other party's
    burden to prove it is your signature.

    Traditionally that's done with handwriting experts. But with
    electronic and photographic signatures that's not an option. If it's
    not a "wet" signature, I suppose they'll want to examine your hard
    drive or phone or whatever is necessary to determine if you made the
    signature or whether someone else did. It comes down to a matter of
    who can prove what.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Bernie Cosell on Sat Oct 1 23:16:14 2022
    On 10/1/2022 4:02 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:
    Another dumb layman question: signatures [at least mine :o)] seem to be almost-random scrawls. They vary all the time. From what I can tell my bank no longer bothers with "checking" my signature on checks.. it just cashes them.

    question: on what basis can I dispute something that someone says I signed? Is my just saying "I didn't sign that" sufficient to make the contract, or whatever, go away? And on the other: what is my recourse if someone comes up with some contract or something that I "signed" but I hadn't. I
    consider "graphology" as, basically, snake oil.

    "Graphology" -- trying to determine things about your personality from
    your handwriting -- *is* snake oil.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphology

    But there *are* actual experts who can determine if your signature
    matches (a) the sample your created when you opened the account and/or
    (b) your signature on the affadavit of forgery.

    And that's the other thing. If you want to dispute a check, the bank
    will want you to submit an "affadavit of forgery". Most banks have an
    onsite notary who will notarize your signature for free (on bank-related
    items -- if you want to notarize something else they charge a fee). That affadavit is made under penalty of perjury.

    Same thing with a forged contract. You go to court, submit your
    signature, and ultimately the judge or jury will decide. Chances are the
    forged signature is nothing like yours.

    That's why we don't have an epidemic of forged contracts: it would end
    up in court, and the creator would end up in prison for forgery and/or
    perjury.

    If your bank doesn't provide that, or there are no branches near you
    (e.g., an Internet bank), you will have to look around for a notary. The
    auto club will do it for a reduced fee if you are a member. Banks,
    brokerages, and suchlike usually have one.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 2 07:24:53 2022
    "Stuart O. Bronstein" wrote in message news:XnsAF23DEC4FFC95spamtraplexregiacom@130.133.4.11...

    Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

    Another dumb layman question: signatures [at least mine :o)] seem
    to be almost-random scrawls. They vary all the time. From what
    I can tell my bank no longer bothers with "checking" my signature
    on checks.. it just cashes them.

    question: on what basis can I dispute something that someone says
    I signed? Is my just saying "I didn't sign that" sufficient to
    make the contract, or whatever, go away? And on the other: what
    is my recourse if someone comes up with some contract or something
    that I "signed" but I hadn't. I consider "graphology" as,
    basically, snake oil.

    That's an interesting question, especially these days with electronic >signatures and banks taking photos instead of actual checks.

    The answer is that you can contest your "signature" at any time. The
    issue will be proving whether it's your signature or not. You have
    the burden of providing evidence that it's not your signature - your
    claim it's not should satisfy that. Then it's the other party's
    burden to prove it is your signature.

    Traditionally that's done with handwriting experts. But with
    electronic and photographic signatures that's not an option. If it's
    not a "wet" signature, I suppose they'll want to examine your hard
    drive or phone or whatever is necessary to determine if you made the >signature or whether someone else did. It comes down to a matter of
    who can prove what.



    The point about electronic signatures is pretty key. The last few contracts
    I have signed have been electronic. In some cases I merely have to type my name for it to constitute a legal signature and in others I am presented
    with a choice of example signatures and I pick one that I can say is mine.
    The thing is, anyone using my computer could do this and say it's my
    signature. In fact, anyone on the planet who can log onto the particular account as me can say it's me.

    And then there is the issue of credit cards. In the old days you would go
    into a store and sign a credit card receipt and the clerk would match your signature to what was on the card. Nowadays, people donít even sign their credit cards any more, and many transactions are done online or even over
    the phone. When I order food to pick up for dinner, I do it all online
    where I don't need even necessarily have to log on to any account. I can checkout as a guest and put in my cc number and I am good to go.

    I sign so few things for real nowadays that I now just scrawl a wiggily line and call that my signature when I actually do have to sign something. I
    have an acquaintance who literally just draws a straight line when he has to sign something and no one bats an eyelash. The days of actual written signatures are fading fast. It's no wonder kids don't even learn cursive writing any more.

    --

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