• Is there a limit to the doctrine that "ambiguity in the law have to be

    From S K@21:1/5 to All on Thu Oct 7 16:13:11 2021
    Kyle Rittenhouse is charged with illegally possessing a firearm while under age 18.

    Wisconsin state law 948.60(2)(a) states: "Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor." However, the exception is: "when the dangerous weapon is being used in target practice
    under the supervision of an adult or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use of the dangerous weapon under the supervision of an adult."[8] Wisconsin statute 948.60(3)(c) states: "This section applies only to a person under 18 years
    of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593."[9]

    Rittenhouses's attorneys say that the "exceptions' allow a 17 year old to open carry an AR15 in an urban setting without having to claim he/she was hunting.

    The judge saw the absurdity of this badly written set of laws (he said the "exceptions destroy the baseline law") but has not been able to strike the defense claim down for now.

    Are judges bound by the strict wording the law that allows absurd ambiguity or can they simply declare that the legislature could not have intended such an absurd interpretation and throw it out?

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to S K on Thu Oct 7 16:46:11 2021
    On 10/7/2021 4:13 PM, S K wrote:
    Kyle Rittenhouse is charged with illegally possessing a firearm while under age 18.

    Wisconsin state law 948.60(2)(a) states: "Any person under 18 years of age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a Class A misdemeanor." However, the exception is: "when the dangerous weapon is being used in target practice
    under the supervision of an adult or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use of the dangerous weapon under the supervision of an adult."[8] Wisconsin statute 948.60(3)(c) states: "This section applies only to a person under 18 years
    of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593."[9]

    Rittenhouses's attorneys say that the "exceptions' allow a 17 year old to open carry an AR15 in an urban setting without having to claim he/she was hunting.

    The judge saw the absurdity of this badly written set of laws (he said the "exceptions destroy the baseline law") but has not been able to strike the defense claim down for now.

    Are judges bound by the strict wording the law that allows absurd ambiguity or can they simply declare that the legislature could not have intended such an absurd interpretation and throw it out?

    Most of the time, a court will try to preserve a bill as written. The assumption is that the legislature knows what it is doing, and if it
    doesn't like the results it can amend the legislation.

    The only exception is if the legislation violates the US or state
    Constitution. Then the court will either strike it down in its entirety,
    or -- if the bill is "severable" -- strike out the unconstitutional
    parts and leave the rest intact.

    [COngress or a legislature will often explicitly state that a law is
    severable if some part of it seems "iffy"]


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Fri Oct 8 06:16:18 2021
    On 10/7/2021 7:46 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 10/7/2021 4:13 PM, S K wrote:
    Kyle Rittenhouse is charged with illegally possessing a firearm while
    under age 18.

    Wisconsin state law 948.60(2)(a) states: "Any person under 18 years of
    age who possesses or goes armed with a dangerous weapon is guilty of a
    Class A misdemeanor." However, the exception is: "when the dangerous
    weapon is being used in target practice under the supervision of an
    adult or in a course of instruction in the traditional and proper use
    of the dangerous weapon under the supervision of an adult."[8]
    Wisconsin statute 948.60(3)(c) states: "This section applies only to a
    person under 18 years of age who possesses or is armed with a rifle or
    a shotgun if the person is in violation of s. 941.28 or is not in
    compliance with ss. 29.304 and 29.593."[9]

    Rittenhouses's attorneys say that the "exceptions' allow a 17 year old
    to open carry an AR15 in an urban setting without having to claim
    he/she was hunting.

    The judge saw the absurdity of this badly written set of laws (he said
    the "exceptions destroy the baseline law") but has not been able to
    strike the defense claim down for now.

    Are judges bound by the strict wording the law that allows absurd
    ambiguity or can they simply declare that the legislature could not
    have intended such an absurd interpretation and throw it out?

    Most of the time, a court will try to preserve a bill as written. The assumption is that the legislature knows what it is doing, and if it
    doesn't like the results it can amend the legislation.

    The only exception is if the legislation violates the US or state Constitution. Then the court will either strike it down in its entirety,
    or -- if the bill is "severable" -- strike out the unconstitutional
    parts and leave the rest intact.

    [COngress or a legislature will often explicitly state that a law is severable if some part of it seems "iffy"]

    A good example of that is the Texas abortion law (but if ya ask me,
    including a severability clause is just an open admission that you
    *already KNOW* that the law, in some parts at least, is very likely to
    be found unconstitutional/void.)


    Sec. 171.212. SEVERABILITY.

    (a) Mindful of Leavitt v. Jane L. the severability of a state statute regulating abortion the United States Supreme Court held that an
    explicit statement of legislative intent is controlling, it is the
    intent of the legislature that every provision, section, subsection,
    sentence, clause, phrase, or word in this chapter, and every application
    of the provisions in this chapter, are severable from each other.

    (b) If any application of any provision in this chapter to any person,
    group of persons, or circumstances is found by a court to be invalid or unconstitutional, the remaining applications of that provision to all
    other persons and circumstances shall be severed and may not be
    affected. All constitutionally valid applications of this chapter shall
    be severed from any applications that a court finds to be invalid,
    leaving the valid applications in force, because it is the legislature's
    intent and priority that the valid applications be allowed to stand
    alone. Even if a reviewing court finds a provision of this chapter to
    impose an undue burden in a large or substantial fraction of relevant
    cases, the applications that do not present an undue burden shall be
    severed from the remaining applications and shall remain in force, and
    shall be treated as if the legislature had enacted a statute limited to
    the persons, group of persons, or circumstances for which the statute's application does not present an undue burden.

    (b-1) If any court declares or finds a provision of this chapter
    facially unconstitutional, when discrete applications of that provision
    can be enforced against a person, group of persons, or circumstances
    without violating the United States Constitution and Texas Constitution,
    those applications shall be severed from all remaining applications of
    the provision, and the provision shall be interpreted as if the
    legislature had enacted a provision limited to the persons, group of
    persons, or circumstances for which the provision's application will not violate the United States Constitution and Texas Constitution.

    (c) The legislature further declares that it would have enacted this
    chapter, and each provision, section, subsection, sentence, clause,
    phrase, or word, and all constitutional applications of this chapter, irrespective of the fact that any provision, section, subsection,
    sentence, clause, phrase, or word, or applications of this chapter, were
    to be declared unconstitutional or to represent an undue burden.

    (d) If any provision of this chapter is found by any court to be unconstitutionally vague, then the applications of that provision that
    do not present constitutional vagueness problems shall be severed and
    remain in force.

    (e) No court may decline to enforce the severability requirements of Subsections (a), (b), (b-1), (c), and (d) on the ground that severance
    would rewrite the statute or involve the court in legislative or
    lawmaking activity. A court that declines to enforce or enjoins a state official from enforcing a statutory provision does not rewrite a
    statute, as the statute continues to contain the same words as before
    the court's decision. A judicial injunction or declaration of unconstitutionality:
    (1) is nothing more than an edict prohibiting enforcement that
    may subsequently be vacated by a later court if that court has a
    different understanding of the requirements of the Texas Constitution or
    United States Constitution;
    (2) is not a formal amendment of the language in a statute; and
    (3) no more rewrites a statute than a decision by the executive
    not to enforce a duly enacted statute in a limited and defined set of circumstances.

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Fri Oct 8 16:48:04 2021
    On 10/8/2021 6:16 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

    A good example of that is the Texas abortion law (but if ya ask me,
    including a severability clause is just an open admission that you
    *already KNOW* that the law, in some parts at least, is very likely to
    be found unconstitutional/void.)

    I think severability clauses are fairly common in legislation. But I
    have to admit that I have never seen one quite as... expansive... as the
    one in the Texas abortion law.

    It reads like, "We know the court is going to find this facially unconstitutional, so we want to save whatever part that might still be
    valid, however small that might be. I can see it now:
    Section 171:
    the... and... or... any... some...

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Sat Oct 9 05:53:24 2021
    On 10/8/2021 7:48 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 10/8/2021 6:16 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

    A good example of that is the Texas abortion law (but if ya ask me,
    including a severability clause is just an open admission that you
    *already KNOW* that the law, in some parts at least, is very likely to
    be found unconstitutional/void.)

    I think severability clauses are fairly common in legislation. But I
    have to admit that I have never seen one quite as... expansive... as the
    one in the Texas abortion law.

    They may be common but I *still* say adding them says a lot about your expectations or thoughts. Much like pleading the fifth shows you do have something to hide (even if you have a legal right to hide it) and
    doesn't help much in the court of public opinion, even if it *IS* an
    absolute defense in the court of law.


    It reads like, "We know the court is going to find this facially unconstitutional, so we want to save whatever part that might still be
    valid, however small that might be. I can see it now:
    Section 171:
     the... and... or... any... some...


    The words "abortion", "is" and "legal" do show up in that specific order
    in the text. So we just toss out all the rest and it's now "the
    legislature's intent and priority that the valid applications be allowed
    to stand alone."

    BTW, I don't think (but could be VERY wrong here) that the state can
    force a court's actions as in "(e) No court may decline to enforce the severability requirements of Subsections (a), (b), (b-1), (c), and (d)
    on the ground that severance would rewrite the statute or involve the
    court in legislative or lawmaking activity." Seems this would fall under
    the normal "separation of powers" and my guess would be that pretty much
    every state has that separation in their constitution.

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