Recently there have been news stories about how the Los Angeles Police Department have a new policy of asking everyone they interact with for
social site accounts, things like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.

I don't expect there's any reason why that would be illegal, even if it
is creepy. But what are the obligations for the people they speak to?

I'm pretty sure if a cop asks for my name (in California), I'm obligated
to give it. And I'm pretty sure if a cop asks me questions that would
implicate me in a plot to stab Caesar with my friend Brutus, I'd be well
within my rights not to answer.

Where's the line? If I answered "No, I don't have a Facebook account"
because the account I have from ten years ago has been abandoned, would
that open me up for a lying to police charge? If I gave them my Twitter
handle and they mishear and note down @donotpassgo when it is really @donutpassgo what risk is that? If I have Instagram accounts for myself,
my business, and my two dogs, should I list them all if answering at
all?

I suspect "yes" for the Facebook question, "if they want to make a big
deal" for the Twitter one, and don't know for the last. I also suspect
I can legally tell them I'm not sharing that.

On the whole, this seems like a poorly thought out policy, but maybe
trickery, loopholes, and gotchas are the point.

Elijah
------
hasn't been to LA in years but already feels unwelcome

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According to Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com>:

I'm pretty sure if a cop asks for my name (in California), I'm obligated
to give it. ...

Nope. You have the right to remain silent. In some states you have to
give your name, but California is not one of them. Needless to say,
this will not make the police happy, but the law is the law.

On the whole, this seems like a poorly thought out policy, but maybe >trickery, loopholes, and gotchas are the point.

Seems that way to me, too. If I say "I work in computer security and
that's why I don't use any social networks", maybe it's even true.

R's,
John
--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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Am 2021-09-22 um 06:14 schrieb Eli the Bearded:

I'm pretty sure if a cop asks for my name (in California), I'm obligated
to give it.

In Germany you have to give your name to the cop:

Section 111
Stating False Names

(1) Whoever makes a false statement to a competent authority, to a
competent office-holder or to a competent soldier of the Federal Armed
Forces or refuses to make a statement concerning his first name, family
name or name at birth, place or date of birth, marital status,
profession, place of residence, address or nationality, shall be deemed
to have committed a regulatory offence.

<https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_owig/englisch_owig.html#p0670>

--
Thomas Homilius
E-Mail: Thomas.Homilius@gmail.com | PGP-Key: 0xA5AD0637441E286F https://www.xup.in/dl,15928715/2016-06-18_PA-ThomasHomilius.jpg/ https://www1.xup.in/exec/ximg.php?fid=15928715
http://paypal.me/ThomasHomilius

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On 9/21/2021 9:14 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:

Recently there have been news stories about how the Los Angeles Police Department have a new policy of asking everyone they interact with for
social site accounts, things like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.

I don't expect there's any reason why that would be illegal, even if it
is creepy. But what are the obligations for the people they speak to?

I'm pretty sure if a cop asks for my name (in California), I'm obligated
to give it. And I'm pretty sure if a cop asks me questions that would implicate me in a plot to stab Caesar with my friend Brutus, I'd be well within my rights not to answer.

Where's the line? If I answered "No, I don't have a Facebook account"
because the account I have from ten years ago has been abandoned, would
that open me up for a lying to police charge? If I gave them my Twitter handle and they mishear and note down @donotpassgo when it is really @donutpassgo what risk is that? If I have Instagram accounts for myself,
my business, and my two dogs, should I list them all if answering at
all?

I suspect "yes" for the Facebook question, "if they want to make a big
deal" for the Twitter one, and don't know for the last. I also suspect
I can legally tell them I'm not sharing that.

On the whole, this seems like a poorly thought out policy, but maybe trickery, loopholes, and gotchas are the point.

I doubt if the point is any sort of trickery. The cops want to paw
through your social media account and see if they can come up with
anything incriminating. Or, for that matter, anything that would
eliminate you as a suspect, e.g., you mentioning having been somewhere
that they can check (security cameras, other people who were there) at
the time of the alleged crime.

But here's the good news: you don't have to answer.

The US Supreme Court has ruled that a "stop and identify" law is valid
if you are only required to give your name (and in some cases your home address, if any). Once you have done that, you should say one of the
magic phrases:

* I prefer not to answer any questions at this time
* I am invoking my fifth amendment right to remain silent
* I want a lawyer. (or "my lawyer" if you have one)

It is almost universally true that you are more likely to talk your way
INTO trouble than OUT of it. So whatever the cop asks, you assert your
right to remain silent and/or have a lawyer present, and then shut up.

And that includes anything about your Facebook, Twitter, Snapchat, etc. accounts.

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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"Eli the Bearded" wrote in message news:eli$2109212033@qaz.wtf...

Recently there have been news stories about how the Los Angeles Police >Department have a new policy of asking everyone they interact with for
social site accounts, things like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.

I don't expect there's any reason why that would be illegal, even if it
is creepy. But what are the obligations for the people they speak to?

I'm pretty sure if a cop asks for my name (in California), I'm obligated
to give it. And I'm pretty sure if a cop asks me questions that would >implicate me in a plot to stab Caesar with my friend Brutus, I'd be well >within my rights not to answer.

Where's the line? If I answered "No, I don't have a Facebook account"
because the account I have from ten years ago has been abandoned, would
that open me up for a lying to police charge? If I gave them my Twitter >handle and they mishear and note down @donotpassgo when it is really >@donutpassgo what risk is that? If I have Instagram accounts for myself,
my business, and my two dogs, should I list them all if answering at
all?

I suspect "yes" for the Facebook question, "if they want to make a big
deal" for the Twitter one, and don't know for the last. I also suspect
I can legally tell them I'm not sharing that.

On the whole, this seems like a poorly thought out policy, but maybe >trickery, loopholes, and gotchas are the point.

Elijah
------
hasn't been to LA in years but already feels unwelcome

What does it mean to ask for someone's Facebook account? Most people don't know the actual link to their account, so I'd be hard pressed to even know
what the actual address is of my account. My name is fairly common, so the actual address has my name and some numbers that I don't particularly know.
If you search on my name in Facebook, you will probably get hundreds of
people with my name.

Also, unless you have opened up your security to allow anyone to view the account, the police won't be able to get much even if they knew the link
unless you have accepted a Friend request from them. If you mean you have
to provide your logon information (including password), that seems a little excessive.

--

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In misc.legal.moderated, Rick <rick@nospam.com> wrote:

What does it mean to ask for someone's Facebook account? Most people don't know the actual link to their account, so I'd be hard pressed to even know what the actual address is of my account. My name is fairly common, so the actual address has my name and some numbers that I don't particularly know. If you search on my name in Facebook, you will probably get hundreds of people with my name.

I'm not sure. Checking I found a reproduction of the field interview
(FI) form which has very little space for capturing the output but
_does_ ask for email as well. Maybe it's email, plus list of sites, and
then using email to correlate?

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/lapd-documents-reveal-use-social-media-monitoring-tools

https://www.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/styles/800xauto/public/2021-09/325987878-card.png?itok=0Fr0h08B

ADDITIONAL INFO [ADDITIONAL PERSONS, BOOKING NO., NARRATIVE,
E-MAIL, SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT(S) (E.G., TWITTER, INSTAGRAM,
FACEBOOK), ETC.]

They've helpfully circled the relevant words in red. The article goes on
to say:
Information from the cards is fed into Palantir, a system through
which the LAPD aggregates data from a wide array of sources to
increase its surveillance and analytical capabilities.

I use different email addresses for everything in order to better
sort email, but it has the side effect of helping to deter automatic
matching of accounts. I know that a sophisticated match tool, or a
not very dumb human, will see through my pattern of addresses easily.
I get the impression a lot of people have trouble even remembering their
one email address, though.

https://xkcd.com/1279/

Elijah
------
has not logged into his gmail account in years

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Barry Gold <bgold@labcats.org> wrote:

} On 9/21/2021 9:14 PM, Eli the Bearded wrote:

} > Recently there have been news stories about how the Los Angeles Police
} > Department have a new policy of asking everyone they interact with for
} > social site accounts, things like Facebook, Twitter, Instagram.
} >
} > I don't expect there's any reason why that would be illegal, even if it
} > is creepy. But what are the obligations for the people they speak to?
} >
} > I'm pretty sure if a cop asks for my name (in California), I'm obligated
} > to give it. And I'm pretty sure if a cop asks me questions that would
} > implicate me in a plot to stab Caesar with my friend Brutus, I'd be well
} > within my rights not to answer.
} >
} > Where's the line? If I answered "No, I don't have a Facebook account"
} > because the account I have from ten years ago has been abandoned, would
} > that open me up for a lying to police charge? If I gave them my Twitter
} > handle and they mishear and note down @donotpassgo when it is really
} > @donutpassgo what risk is that? If I have Instagram accounts for myself,
} > my business, and my two dogs, should I list them all if answering at
} > all?
} >
} > I suspect "yes" for the Facebook question, "if they want to make a big
} > deal" for the Twitter one, and don't know for the last. I also suspect
} > I can legally tell them I'm not sharing that.

I'm trying to understand the boundaries here -- I'm guessing that it is absolutely OK to refuse to answer the question but you could?/might?/would?
be in trouble if you _lied_ about it.

/b\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
--> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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On 9/24/2021 3:55 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

I'm trying to understand the boundaries here -- I'm guessing that it is absolutely OK to refuse to answer the question but you could?/might?/would? be in trouble if you_lied_ about it.

Yes. In just about every state it is illegal to lie to a police officer.
(Note: for this purpose, a lie is a voluntary statement. If the cops
torture you and you say what they want so they will stop, that's not a
"lie" for legal purposes.)

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

I'm trying to understand the boundaries here -- I'm guessing that
it is absolutely OK to refuse to answer the question but you could?/might?/would? be in trouble if you _lied_ about it.

Depends on whom you lie to. It's illegal to lie to federal
investigators. It may be illegal to lie to local police in some places
as well. But it's not normally illegal to lie in the abstract, unless
you are doing it to accomplish some illegal purpose.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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