For once, a situation without political implications:
A gravel driveway runs from the street to the gate of the paddock at
the back of the property. Since the paddock is enclosed all around by fencing, I believe the paddock is all mine, which means the driveway
is almost certainly mine too. (I just bought this place, and have not
been given a survey or any other kind of map.)
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my property
line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing that, but I
don't want to create an easement that would cloud my title, or
prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he started doing car
repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement? If the time is long, say 20 years, I'll just
ignore the situation for N-1 years. But if the period is shorter,
should I give him a written notice (and have him sign it) stating
that he's using my property by permission and such permission can be withdrawn at any time at my sole discretion? Obviously I'd rather not
go all legalistic for a trivial infringement if I can avoid it.
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
For once, a situation without political implications:
A gravel driveway runs from the street to the gate of the paddock at
the back of the property. Since the paddock is enclosed all around by
fencing, I believe the paddock is all mine, which means the driveway
is almost certainly mine too. (I just bought this place, and have not
been given a survey or any other kind of map.)
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my property
line (as I believe).
I have no objection to his doing that, but I
don't want to create an easement that would cloud my title, or
prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he started doing car
repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement? If the time is long, say 20 years, I'll just
ignore the situation for N-1 years. But if the period is shorter,
should I give him a written notice (and have him sign it) stating
that he's using my property by permission and such permission can be
withdrawn at any time at my sole discretion? Obviously I'd rather not
go all legalistic for a trivial infringement if I can avoid it.
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription is
five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is contrary to >permission. If you allow the use, the prescription period never starts
to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple sign >allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to use is >revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my head the exact >language in the statute, but if you look at any large building that has >people passing through its footprint, you should see it.
"Stuart O. Bronstein" <spamtrap@lexregia.com> wrote:
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
For once, a situation without political implications:
A gravel driveway runs from the street to the gate of the paddock at
the back of the property. Since the paddock is enclosed all around by
fencing, I believe the paddock is all mine, which means the driveway
is almost certainly mine too. (I just bought this place, and have not
been given a survey or any other kind of map.)
Do you plan to get a map, or have you talked to the previous owner to
see what he thinks he owned? It's not just this one small issue but
maybe other more imporant things will arise.
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my property
line (as I believe).
How can you do anythuing based on mere belief, since your knowledge at
this stage sounds so vague.
I have no objection to his doing that, but I
don't want to create an easement that would cloud my title, or
prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he started doing car
repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement? If the time is long, say 20 years, I'll just
ignore the situation for N-1 years. But if the period is shorter,
N-2 is better. Lots of things aan interfere and take time, like
Covid-28.
should I give him a written notice (and have him sign it) stating
that he's using my property by permission and such permission can be
withdrawn at any time at my sole discretion? Obviously I'd rather not
go all legalistic for a trivial infringement if I can avoid it.
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription is
five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is contrary
to permission. If you allow the use, the prescription period never
starts to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple sign >>allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to use is >>revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my head the
exact language in the statute, but if you look at any large building
that has people passing through its footprint, you should see it.
I think there's a difference between the best wording one would use for 1000's of strangers you'll never meet and who can't be communciated ith one-to-one versus one's next door neighbor whom I assume the OP would
like to become friends with.
If Stan has his email address, and you should in case you're away or
he's away and you have to reach him, you can email him, and save a
copy, starting with something good:
I noticed that the shingles on your house are starting to curl and
that's a sign you'll be needing a new roof. I've heard that if you put
the new roof on when the old roof has curled only a little bit. you
don't have to remove the first roof. [If that's true, whategver fits
the facts]
OR We're having a barbecue on July 4 from 4 to 11. I hope you and
your family can come. Hamburgers and hotdogs will be served starting
at 6. No need for you to bring anything, unless you have some fireworks
you want to set off when it gets dark. We'll have some of them too.
OR I'm going to be planting a vegetable garden. Do you know what
grows well on this land? Anything you wish you'd planted that you
didn't have time for, I'd be glad to plant and share with you.
Followed by: I'm glad you've been able to park your truck on my land
by the back driveway***. (I'm having a OR For the) barbecue on July
4th, and I might need the room for guests' cars, so that day only I'd appreciate it if you'd park somewhere else. [if it's conceivable that
you'd run out of room, and you'd better have that barbecue too!]
If it's not conceivable, just "I'm glad you've been able to park your
truck on my land by the back driveway."
***My first thought was "on the land by my back driveway" but maybe
it's necessary to put my in front of land, or he'll think/say only the driveway belongs to you????????
If there's a sign, I would suggest,
"Parking permitted only for the Brown family, the NextDoor family,
and the NextDoor-on-other-side family.
Stan
Signed by Stan is enough to show that Stan is giving the permission
because it's his to give. Take picturs of the sign, and make sure the metadata shows what date the picture was taken. (Although you can set
the camera to have any date you want. How do courts handle that?
Before there was metadata, people would put a newspaper with the date
showing next to something, but a clever person could save the newspaper
every 4 months and then he could use one to show whatever date he
wanted!!)
Does it really have to say revocable? That's so harsh and he may never
even want to revoke permission, and the only basis for the 5 years to
start running is that it was not by permission. He can someday put up
a new sign that says "Sorry, no parking allowed anymore."
A parking story: My friend in NY, lived on E57th st. couldn't afford
to pay for a NYC parking garage. He parked in Queens for a couple
years, and later at someone's farm in Florida iirc. The Florida guy
had loads of space, no skin off his nose. Eventually my friend gave
this beautiful big classic Cadillac to the guy who let him park there.
IOW, it pays to be nice, and being legalistic can turn people off,
forever even. .
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my property
line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing that, but I
don't want to create an easement that would cloud my title, or
prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he started doing car repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement?
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription is
five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is contrary to permission. If you allow the use, the prescription period never starts
to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple sign allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to use is revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my head the exact language in the statute, but if you look at any large building that has people passing through its footprint, you should see it.
On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 08:38:04 -0700 (PDT), Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my property
line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing that, but I
don't want to create an easement that would cloud my title, or
prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he started doing car
repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement?
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription is
five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is contrary to
permission. If you allow the use, the prescription period never starts
to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple sign
allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to use is
revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my head the exact
language in the statute, but if you look at any large building that has
people passing through its footprint, you should see it.
Thanks, Stuart.
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
.
"Stan Brown" wrote
Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my
property line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing
that, but I don't want to create an easement that would cloud my
title, or prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he
started doing car repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement?
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription
is five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is
contrary to permission. If you allow the use, the prescription
period never starts to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple
sign allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to
use is revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my
head the exact language in the statute, but if you look at any large
building that has people passing through its footprint, you should
see it.
Thanks, Stuart.
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >>un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
One other point to consider. Are you sure you can legally put up a
sign in that area? I'm pretty sure my HOA has rules about the kinds
of signs one can post and where you can legally post them.
On Thu, 20 Jun 2024 08:38:04 -0700 (PDT), Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my property
line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing that, but I
don't want to create an easement that would cloud my title, or
prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he started doing car
repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement?
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription is
five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is contrary to
permission. If you allow the use, the prescription period never starts
to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple sign
allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to use is
revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my head the exact
language in the statute, but if you look at any large building that has
people passing through its footprint, you should see it.
Thanks, Stuart.
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my
property line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing
that, but I don't want to create an easement that would cloud my
title, or prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he
started doing car repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement?
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription
is five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is
contrary to permission. If you allow the use, the prescription
period never starts to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple
sign allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to
use is revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my
head the exact language in the statute, but if you look at any large
building that has people passing through its footprint, you should
see it.
Thanks, Stuart.
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >>un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
If it's not moot, you can combine my suggestion with Stuart's advice.
Start off with being nice, real nice if he's slow to be friendly, and
a few weeks later when you see him, or call him and say, "I'm sorry,
Ed, I was just talking about whether to pave the gravel driveway, and
I made the mistake of telling my brother-in-law/friend-at-work about
the parked car and he's a lawyer and he insisted I'd better put up a
sign, and he bulldozed me into promising him I would do it.
I guess Stan could just send the neighbor a nice letter saying that he
thinks that land belongs to him, but that he gives the neighbor
permission to park there. (Don't say "as long as you want" or any other indication of duration). Prescriptive rights don't arise when use is permissive.
"Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:v54rft$3bm6d$1@dont-email.me:
"Stan Brown" wrote
Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> wrote:
My neighbor has started parking one car, without consulting me, on
the gravel adjacent to his property but actually within my
property line (as I believe). I have no objection to his doing
that, but I don't want to create an easement that would cloud my
title, or prevent my telling him to stop if (for instance) he
started doing car repairs there.
How long does it take in California for "open, notorious use" to
create an easement?
In California the time period to obtain an easement by prescription
is five years. But remember that it only applies if the use is
contrary to permission. If you allow the use, the prescription
period never starts to run.
You can prevent an easement by prescription by putting up a simple
sign allowing the use of your property - something like, "right to
use is revocable at any time." I don't recall off the top of my
head the exact language in the statute, but if you look at any large
building that has people passing through its footprint, you should
see it.
Thanks, Stuart.
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >>>un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
One other point to consider. Are you sure you can legally put up a
sign in that area? I'm pretty sure my HOA has rules about the kinds
of signs one can post and where you can legally post them.
If a statute tells you to put up a sign, having an HOA tell you not to
would likely be unenforceable. It would be like the HOA rules saying
that people can break into each other's homes without consent. When HOA >rules conflict with a statute, the statute will generally win.
Thanks, Stuart.
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown@fastmail.fm> writes:
Putting up a sign, especially in a residential area, feels kind of >un-neighborly to me. I think my first step is to get hold of an
official map of the property line. At this point I don't know for
sure that they're even on my side of the line, and if they're not
then the whole thing becomes moot.
The Kern County GIS <https://www.kerncounty.com/government/gis-menu/interactive-county-map-gis-tool>
will have a property map. But the fact you don't have one
already makes me wonder how you could have title insurance.
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