• Is Trump NY case reversible on appeal?

    From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 12 10:47:02 2024
    Seems to me the prosecution made an error in some of their questioning of Stormy Daniels. The case isn't about whether Trump had sex with Daniels.
    It is about whether Trump falsified books to generate a payment to Daniels, thus also violating campaign finance laws, to keep her quiet about her allegation of having sex with Trump. Whether or not she actually had sex
    with Trump is actually irrelevant. Accordingly, asking Daniels whether
    Trump used a condom and whether the sex was "fast" seem not only irrelevant, but inflammatory.

    The defense asked for a mistrial on this point. Prosecution claimed the questions were appropriate because the defense denied in their opening statement that Trump had had sex with Daniels. Defense claimed the
    questions went beyond just eliciting whether they had sex and got into salacious details designed to prejudice the jury. Judge had an interesting response. He agreed the questions went too far but pointed out that the defense could have objected but did not.

    This brings up three questions to me:

    1) Can Trump use an argument of ineffective counsel in making an appeal
    that his defense lawyer was essentially incompetent? Or is this type of
    appeal pretty much denied to someone with Trump's resources who can theoretically afford whatever lawyer he wants

    2) Is it possible Trump's lawyer was actually more crafty than incompetent
    and deliberately let the questions be answered knowing it could form the
    basis for an appeal?

    3) In general, how much leeway will a judge give when hearing what he or
    she knows is an inflammatory or inappropriate question that the defense
    should object to but does not?

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Sun May 12 14:10:45 2024
    According to Rick <rick@nospam.com>:
    Seems to me the prosecution made an error in some of their questioning of >Stormy Daniels. The case isn't about whether Trump had sex with Daniels. ...

    The always informative Serious Trouble podcast discussed this.
    See https://www.serioustrouble.show/

    When the witness is the lawyer's client, the lawyer always prepares
    the client, tells them what the questions will be, and how to reply,
    generally saying as little as possble.

    While Ms. Clifford is generally sympathetic to the prosecution, if
    either side's lawyers tried to prepare her, that would be witness
    tampering. Hence when questioned, she's gonna say what she's gonna
    say, even though both sides would prefer she said less.

    1) Can Trump use an argument of ineffective counsel in making an appeal

    As you suspect, no. It's not like he's indigent with an overworked
    public defender.

    2) Is it possible Trump's lawyer was actually more crafty than incompetent

    Naah.

    3) In general, how much leeway will a judge give when hearing what he or
    she knows is an inflammatory or inappropriate question that the defense
    should object to but does not?

    He rejected the motion for a mistrial and part of his reasoning is
    that they didn't object when they had the chance. I also expect that
    given Trump's general notoriety, the jury wasn't very surprised to
    hear he had bad sex with her.


    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From micky@21:1/5 to Rick on Mon May 13 09:46:15 2024
    In misc.legal.moderated, on Sun, 12 May 2024 10:47:02 -0700 (PDT),
    "Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote:


    1) Can Trump use an argument of ineffective counsel in making an appeal
    that his defense lawyer was essentially incompetent? Or is this type of >appeal pretty much denied to someone with Trump's resources who can >theoretically afford whatever lawyer he wants

    Not only what John said, doesn't his counsel at this trial have a
    history of being a very qualified lawyer. Can someone with experience
    who has done well in the past screws up, can the client still argue
    ineffective counsel. I don't know one way or the other, but it seems
    somewhat unreasonable.

    2) Is it possible Trump's lawyer was actually more crafty than incompetent >and deliberately let the questions be answered knowing it could form the >basis for an appeal?

    One news show pundit I heard speculated that way. Why didnt they
    object more? They objected quite a bit and the judge ruled in their
    favor more than half the time. Did they not want to accused of taking
    too big a helping of roast beef?

    3) In general, how much leeway will a judge give when hearing what he or
    she knows is an inflammatory or inappropriate question that the defense >should object to but does not?

    As you probably know, the judge himself objected once (or was it more?)

    I presume if he's convicted, appeals will be filed soon after. He's an
    old fat man so if he dies before the appeals are decided, do they still
    get decided, or are they dropped? This is a quaestion about NY,
    Georgia, and federal courts.

    --
    I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
    I am not a lawyer.

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Rick on Mon May 13 09:42:46 2024
    On 5/12/2024 10:47 AM, Rick wrote:
    Seems to me the prosecution made an error in some of their questioning
    of Stormy Daniels.  The case isn't about whether Trump had sex with
    Daniels. It is about whether Trump falsified books to generate a payment
    to Daniels, thus also violating campaign finance laws, to keep her quiet about her allegation of having sex with Trump.  Whether or not she
    actually had sex with Trump is actually irrelevant.  Accordingly, asking Daniels whether Trump used a condom and whether the sex was "fast" seem
    not only irrelevant, but inflammatory.

    The defense asked for a mistrial on this point.  Prosecution claimed the questions were appropriate because the defense denied in their opening statement that Trump had had sex with Daniels.  Defense claimed the questions went beyond just eliciting whether they had sex and got into salacious details designed to prejudice the jury.   Judge had an interesting response.  He agreed the questions went too far but pointed
    out that  the defense could have objected but did not.

    This brings up three questions to me:

    1)  Can Trump use an argument of ineffective counsel in making an appeal that his defense lawyer was essentially incompetent?  Or is this type of appeal pretty much denied to someone with Trump's resources who can theoretically afford whatever lawyer he wants

    2)  Is it possible Trump's lawyer was actually more crafty than
    incompetent and deliberately let the questions be answered knowing it
    could form the basis for an appeal?

    3)  In general, how much leeway will a judge give when hearing what he
    or she knows is an inflammatory or inappropriate question that the
    defense should object to but does not?

    1. AFAIK the claim of "ineffective assistance of counsel" is not limited
    to people using public defenders or court-appointed lawyers, although
    those - especially the latter -- are much more likely to be ineffective.
    But if Trump claims that, the appeals court is likely to ask, "So, why
    didn't you tell your lawyers to be more proactive? If they weren't doing
    the job, why didn't you fire them and get better lawyers.(*)

    2. If the appeals court even smells the possibility that the lawyer was intentionally creating grounds for an appeal, they'll toss it out so
    fast that Trump's (and the lawyer's) head will spin. And the lawyer will
    be subjected to disciplinary action by the state's office that enforces
    legal ethics.

    3. It's not the judge's job to spot inflammatory/inappropriate
    questions. A judge is supposed to be an arbitrator, deciding things that
    are brought to his attention by one of the lawyers. Or the litigant, if
    acting pro se. Judges _will_ give a little more leeway to pro se
    litigants because they don't have the training to spot these problems.
    The judge *might* even ask the litigant, "do you have a problem with
    this?" or some such.

    But when a litigant is represented, the lawyers are supposed to be
    paying attention and object. That might have resulted in the judge
    telling Daniels not to answer. Or if she has already answered,
    instructing the jury to disregard the question and answer (and striking
    it from the record). After a few such events, the judge might caution
    the lawyer, and if it goes on, might even grant a mistrial.

    (*) Note: Trump's problems with lawyers arise from his own habits - he
    doesn't pay his bills. Not just lawyers - he got so notorious for
    refusing to pay subcontractors that nobody in New York's construction
    business will work for him. When word gets around that you don't pay,
    you either pay in advance for every hour the lawyer puts in, or you take lawyers who are so hungry that they'll take a chance on having to sue
    you to get paid.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From Stan Brown@21:1/5 to micky on Tue May 14 13:52:19 2024
    On Mon, 13 May 2024 09:46:15 -0700 (PDT), micky wrote:
    I presume if he's convicted, appeals will be filed soon after. He's an
    old fat man so if he dies before the appeals are decided, do they still
    get decided, or are they dropped? This is a quaestion about NY,
    Georgia, and federal courts.

    It'd be dropped. This is a criminal case, not a civil one, so there's
    no plaintiff to get money out of this one. A dead defendant, even if
    their conviction is upheld on appeal, can't serve a jail sentence,
    perform mandated community service, etc. The appeal would be declared
    moot, and that would be the end of it.

    --
    Stan Brown, Tehachapi, California, USA https://BrownMath.com/
    Shikata ga nai...

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Stan Brown on Tue May 14 15:09:57 2024
    On 5/14/2024 1:52 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
    On Mon, 13 May 2024 09:46:15 -0700 (PDT), micky wrote:
    I presume if he's convicted, appeals will be filed soon after. He's an
    old fat man so if he dies before the appeals are decided, do they still
    get decided, or are they dropped? This is a quaestion about NY,
    Georgia, and federal courts.

    It'd be dropped. This is a criminal case, not a civil one, so there's
    no plaintiff to get money out of this one. A dead defendant, even if
    their conviction is upheld on appeal, can't serve a jail sentence,
    perform mandated community service, etc. The appeal would be declared
    moot, and that would be the end of it.

    I'm inclined to agree. I guess you could still levy fines, but those
    would come out of his estate. So you would be punishing his
    heirs/legatees rather than the person who was convicted. I'm pretty sure
    the law doesn't do that.

    Also, I'm not aware of any direct mechanism for collecting fines. It's
    usually "pay the fine or go to jail" (either as a direct either/or or as contempt of court). Or sometimes other sanctions are used, e.g., if you
    don't pay your traffic ticket your driver's license may be suspended
    until you do.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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