• term limit for president

    From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 15 06:38:24 2021
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
    a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
    president again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
    steps down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

    Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down.
    Now Obama's in his 4th term.

    Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

    Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of
    it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
    any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Wed Sep 15 07:27:16 2021
    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
    a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
    president again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
    steps down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

    Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down.
    Now Obama's in his 4th term.

    Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

    Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of
    it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
    any legal prohibition against it working at all.)




    The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
    office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
    United States."

    Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

    Another scenario would be when the President dies and the VP is not
    available. Would a "constitutionally ineligible" speaker of the House
    become president or be skipped?

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Roy on Wed Sep 15 09:31:03 2021
    "Roy" wrote in message news:shsvqq$spf$1@dont-email.me...

    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
    President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if a
    vice president becomes president and how it affects running for president
    again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential
    candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he steps
    down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

    Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down.
    Now Obama's in his 4th term.

    Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

    Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of
    it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
    any legal prohibition against it working at all.)




    The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
    office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
    United States."

    Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would >obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

    Another scenario would be when the President dies and the VP is not >available. Would a "constitutionally ineligible" speaker of the House
    become president or be skipped?





    I don't get why this is considered murky. The 12th Amendment seems very
    clear when it says no one ineligible to be president can be eligible for
    Vice President. That's about as clear-cut and non-murky as it gets, no?

    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there is no VP, that would seem to work.
    --

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  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Roy on Wed Sep 15 11:34:31 2021
    On 9/15/2021 10:27 AM, Roy wrote:
    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
    President, for more than two years of a term to which some other
    person was elected President shall be elected to the office of
    President more than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens
    when/if a vice president becomes president and how it affects running
    for president again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the
    presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president
    can't become veep?)

    They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
    steps down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one
    day.

    Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps
    down. Now Obama's in his 4th term.

    Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

    Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood
    of it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if
    there's any legal prohibition against it working at all.)




    The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
    office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
    United States."

    Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky.  It would obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

    Another scenario would be when the President dies and the VP is not available.  Would a "constitutionally ineligible" speaker of the House become president or be skipped?

    Ok, yeah, the 12th would seem to forbid it. Thanx. I wasn't ever
    expecting it to come up as a real issue anyway.

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Rick on Wed Sep 15 16:32:50 2021
    "Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sht4hs$13qh$1@gioia.aioe.org:

    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
    Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
    is no VP, that would seem to work.

    That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
    President would be limited to a term of just two more years.

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Wed Sep 15 17:53:52 2021
    On 9/15/2021 4:32 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    "Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sht4hs$13qh$1@gioia.aioe.org:

    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
    Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
    is no VP, that would seem to work.

    That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
    President would be limited to a term of just two more years.


    A more possible scenario is that the Speaker is an immigrant and not
    born in the US

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Wed Sep 15 17:53:27 2021
    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
    a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
    president again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:
    But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President
    shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

    However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
    House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
    resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
    remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump.

    But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And I
    suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 15 19:07:00 2021
    According to Stuart O. Bronstein <spamtrap@lexregia.com>:
    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
    Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
    is no VP, that would seem to work.

    That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
    President would be limited to a term of just two more years.

    That's not what the Constitution says. Art II sec 1 says that if there
    is neither a president nor vice president, "the Congress may by law
    provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both
    of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then
    act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the
    Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected."

    Since there is no way to elect a president other than the usual
    four-year election, the Speaker or whoever remains in office for
    the rest of the term.

    Don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the Speaker of the House need not be a member of the House, although he or she always has been.

    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to John Levine on Thu Sep 16 05:08:31 2021
    On 9/15/2021 7:07 PM, John Levine wrote:
    Don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the Speaker of the House need
    not be a member of the House, although he or she always has been.

    Are you sure? I know the Constitution is mute on this point, but what
    about the House's rules of order?

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Roy on Fri Sep 17 12:28:52 2021
    "Roy" wrote in message news:shu4fc$iqh$1@dont-email.me...

    On 9/15/2021 4:32 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    "Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sht4hs$13qh$1@gioia.aioe.org:

    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
    Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
    is no VP, that would seem to work.

    That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
    President would be limited to a term of just two more years.


    A more possible scenario is that the Speaker is an immigrant and not born
    in the US

    But in that case, they would clearly not be qualified to be president, so I would think it would go to the next person in line. The same scenario would apply if the Speaker were under 35 years of age - also a definite
    possibility.

    --

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  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Fri Sep 17 13:06:11 2021
    On 9/15/2021 8:53 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
    President, for more than two years of a term to which some other
    person was elected President shall be elected to the office of
    President more than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens
    when/if a vice president becomes president and how it affects running
    for president again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the
    presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president
    can't become veep?)

    Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:
    But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President
    shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

    However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
    House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
    resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
    remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump.

    But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And I suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking just of
    the two-term people that can't be elected a third time (and even then,
    only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could have as easily been Joe
    several years in the future or even a fictitious president or "could
    this have happened when Regan was still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th amendment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Barry Gold on Fri Sep 17 12:24:58 2021
    Barry Gold <bgold@labcats.org> wrote:

    However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of
    the House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to
    die or resign, Obama would then become President and could serve
    out the remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or
    (shudder!) Trump.

    But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC.
    And I suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a
    lifetime.

    It's not like either of them needs the money. :-)

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Elle N@21:1/5 to Rick on Fri Sep 17 13:38:10 2021
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:31:06 AM UTC-6, Rick wrote:
    "Roy" wrote in message news:shsvqq$spf$1...@dont-email.me...

    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
    President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if a >> vice president becomes president and how it affects running for president >> again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential >> candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he steps >> down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

    Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down. >> Now Obama's in his 4th term.

    Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

    Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of >> it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
    any legal prohibition against it working at all.)




    The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the >office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the >United States."

    Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would >obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

    [snip]


    I don't get why this is considered murky. The 12th Amendment seems very
    clear when it says no one ineligible to be president can be eligible for
    Vice President. That's about as clear-cut and non-murky as it gets, no?

    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there is no VP, that would seem to work.


    I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's
    phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

    The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
    president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th amendment.

    In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
    president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP Barack Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
    no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

    The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally ineligible"
    would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
    (at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in particular, and possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Fri Sep 17 16:36:01 2021
    "Mike Anderson" wrote in message news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me...

    On 9/15/2021 8:53 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
    President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
    a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
    president again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential >>> candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:
    But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President
    shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

    However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
    House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
    resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
    remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump.

    But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And I
    suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking just of the >two-term people that can't be elected a third time (and even then, only
    said "Obama" just to have a name. It could have as easily been Joe several >years in the future or even a fictitious president or "could this have >happened when Regan was still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting
    about the 12th amendment.

    Reagan was already rumored to be experiencing the beginnings of Alzheimer's when his second term ended, so I doubt he would have ever seriously been considered for a backdoor third term like this.

    But Obama, Clinton and G.W. Bush all left office at relatively young ages
    and even today are all younger than Biden.

    --

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 17 17:21:50 2021
    "Elle N" wrote in message news:36254838-8d3a-4c42-be49-50b981a0c71an@googlegroups.com...

    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:31:06 AM UTC-6, Rick wrote:
    "Roy" wrote in message news:shsvqq$spf$1...@dont-email.me...

    On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:
    Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
    country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

    "No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
    twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
    President, for more than two years of a term to which some other
    person
    was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
    than once."

    It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens
    when/if a
    vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
    president
    again.)

    So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

    Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the
    presidential
    candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
    veep?)

    They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
    steps
    down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

    Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps
    down.
    Now Obama's in his 4th term.

    Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

    Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood
    of
    it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if
    there's
    any legal prohibition against it working at all.)




    The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
    office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
    United States."

    Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would
    obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

    [snip]


    I don't get why this is considered murky. The 12th Amendment seems very
    clear when it says no one ineligible to be president can be eligible for
    Vice President. That's about as clear-cut and non-murky as it gets, no?

    OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes Speaker
    of
    the House and is elevated to the presidency when there is no VP, that
    would
    seem to work.


    I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's >phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

    The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the presidency >more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
    president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th >amendment.

    In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
    president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP
    Barack
    Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
    no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

    The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally ineligible" >would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
    (at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in particular,
    and
    possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

    I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the
    requirements of Article II. After all, the requirements for age,
    citizenship, etc. could all potentially be modified by later amendments.
    For example, if a later amendment is passed lowering the required minimum
    age to 30, then that would clearly apply. To me the phrase
    "constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due to not meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.


    --

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  • From Elle N@21:1/5 to Rick on Fri Sep 17 20:48:32 2021
    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:21:53 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:
    "Elle N" wrote in message

    I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's >phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

    The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the presidency >more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
    president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th >amendment.

    In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late >president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP >Barack
    Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
    no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

    The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally ineligible" >would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
    (at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in particular, >and
    possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.
    I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the requirements of Article II.

    I never said "only."

    To me the phrase
    "constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due to not meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.

    For me to take your response seriously, you would have to address my
    argument about the use of the word "elected" in the 22nd amendment.
    It's clear to me that the 22nd amendment prohibits a person
    being elected to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does
    not speak to ascending to the presidency by other means.

    Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
    messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
    really meant to say a person could not serve more than
    two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
    was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
    attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
    four+ year process of adding this Constitutional amendment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 17 21:38:18 2021
    "Elle N" wrote in message news:1f6147e8-b07c-40d7-80e3-eb90c4f0eec9n@googlegroups.com...

    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:21:53 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:
    "Elle N" wrote in message

    I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's
    phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

    The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the
    presidency
    more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
    president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th
    amendment.

    In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
    president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP
    Barack
    Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
    no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

    The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally
    ineligible"
    would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
    (at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in
    particular,
    and
    possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.
    I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the
    requirements of Article II.

    I never said "only."

    To me the phrase
    "constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due to
    not
    meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.

    For me to take your response seriously, you would have to address my
    argument about the use of the word "elected" in the 22nd amendment.
    It's clear to me that the 22nd amendment prohibits a person
    being elected to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does
    not speak to ascending to the presidency by other means.

    Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
    messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
    really meant to say a person could not serve more than
    two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
    was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
    attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
    four+ year process of adding this Constitutional amendment.

    I absolutely agree that the 22nd amendment only prohibits a person from
    being elected to the presidency more than twice (or more than once plus
    serving more than half of another president's term). Thus, if we are only considering the 22nd amendment, there would be nothing to prohibit a
    previous two-term president like Obama or W. Bush or Clinton from serving as
    VP after being elected to two terms, and thus possibly ascending back to the presidency if the incumbent dies or leaves office.

    But we also have the 12th amendment which basically says that if you don't qualify as president, you can't serve as VP. Period. So in my mind, those
    two components of the Constitution together would prohibit a previous
    two-term president from serving as VP.

    --

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Sat Sep 18 05:18:37 2021
    Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
    just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
    (and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
    have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
    fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
    still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
    amendment.

    According to Trump he was elected to a second term. Shouldn't that
    prevent him from running again?

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Rick on Sat Sep 18 08:13:51 2021
    On 9/17/2021 7:36 PM, Rick wrote:
    "Mike Anderson"  wrote in message news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me...

    On 9/15/2021 8:53 PM, Barry Gold wrote:
    Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:
    But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of
    President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United
    States.

    However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
    House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
    resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
    remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump. >>>
    But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And
    I suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking just
    of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time (and even
    then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could have as easily
    been Joe several years in the future or even a fictitious president or
    "could this have happened when Regan was still alive?", etc.) But yes,
    I was forgetting about the 12th amendment.

    Reagan was already rumored to be experiencing the beginnings of
    Alzheimer's when his second term ended, so I doubt he would have ever seriously been considered for a backdoor third term like this.

    Agreed but again, this is a discussion on what would be legally possible
    and not what would be or would not be probable. I was simply looking at "elected to two term" presidents since the 22 was ratified and those are Eisenhower, Reagan, Clinton, "Shrub" and Obama. So Eisenhower was the
    only one I was overlooking as asking "could this have *legally* happened
    to him?" (and never ""could this have *probably* happened to him?" as I
    don't see this ever actually being a real issue.)

    But Obama, Clinton and G.W. Bush all left office at relatively young
    ages and even today are all younger than Biden.

    --

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  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Rick on Sat Sep 18 07:29:20 2021
    On 9/18/2021 12:38 AM, Rick wrote:
    "Elle N"  wrote in message news:1f6147e8-b07c-40d7-80e3-eb90c4f0eec9n@googlegroups.com...

    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:21:53 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:
    "Elle N" wrote in message

    I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's >>> >phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

    The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the
    presidency
    more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
    president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the
    25th
    amendment.

    In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
    president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP
    Barack
    Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
    no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

    The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally
    ineligible"
    would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements >>> >(at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in
    particular,
    and
    possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.
    I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the
    requirements of Article II.

    I never said "only."

    To me the phrase
    "constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due
    to not
    meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.

    For me to take your response seriously, you would have to address my
    argument about the use of the word "elected" in the 22nd amendment.
    It's clear to me that the 22nd amendment prohibits a person
    being elected to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does
    not speak to ascending to the presidency by other means.

    Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
    messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
    really meant to say a person could not serve more than
    two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
    was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
    attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
    four+ year process of  adding this Constitutional amendment.

    I absolutely agree that the 22nd amendment only prohibits a person from
    being elected to the presidency more than twice (or more than once plus serving more than half of another president's term).  Thus, if we are
    only considering the 22nd amendment, there would be nothing to prohibit
    a previous two-term president like Obama or W. Bush or Clinton from
    serving as VP after being elected to two terms, and thus possibly
    ascending back to the presidency if the incumbent dies or leaves office.

    But we also have the 12th amendment which basically says that if you
    don't qualify as president, you can't serve as VP.  Period.  So in my
    mind, those two components of the Constitution together would prohibit a previous two-term president from serving as VP.

    I think the key part here may be "what does 'qualify' mean in this
    context?" and Elle has a point here that I wasn't considering.

    #22 doesn't seem to change what makes a person "qualify to be president"
    but simply seems to cover two ways (and ONLY two ways) a person can
    BECOME president, those being:

    1) Elected to the office.
    2) Being VP and the president leaving office (and keep in mind, the VP
    doesn't even have to been in the election at all. If Kamala Harris left
    office today and John Doe took over as VP and then Biden leaves office
    two days later, John Doe was never part of a presidential election at
    all (he was subject to a confirmation but not an election) but is still president.

    #25 states ways that a person can become president (death of the
    president, resignation of the president, removal of the president, etc.)
    And the Constitution says what qualifications a person must meet to be president (natural-born, over 35, etc) and basically #12 says "If you're
    an immigrant or under 35, etc than you can't be veep, either." So Obama
    is over 35, natural-born, etc and would NOT be "[...]elected to the
    office of the President more than twice," even in my original hypothetical.

    And along that note, let's change this around a bit. It would seem that
    if Obama had stepped down after a month and Biden became president for
    3y 11m, then John Doe won the primary in 2012 and Joe Biden was his veep
    and John Doe stepped down and Biden again became president for 3y 11m,
    then he could STILL have run for president in 2020 as he'd never been
    *elected* to the office. In fact, it seems that he could have had
    SEVERAL 3y 11m terms as president based on being elected VP and then the president stepping down, dying, etc. as long as he was never actually
    ELECTED to the office of president.

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  • From Mike Anderson@21:1/5 to Stuart O. Bronstein on Sat Sep 18 10:31:33 2021
    On 9/18/2021 8:18 AM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
    just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
    (and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
    have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
    fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
    still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
    amendment.

    According to Trump he was elected to a second term. Shouldn't that
    prevent him from running again?


    *laugh* Good point.

    But if there was such a good case for fraud in the elections, my main
    question is "why did no judge agree?" Out of 60+ court cases, they won
    how many? Three, I think, and even those were minor things like "yes,
    the poll observers can get a few feet closer" and such.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Elle N@21:1/5 to Rick on Sat Sep 18 13:50:14 2021
    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 10:38:21 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:
    Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
    messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
    really meant to say a person could not serve more than
    two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
    was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
    attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
    four+ year process of adding this Constitutional amendment.
    I absolutely agree that the 22nd amendment only prohibits a person from
    being elected to the presidency more than twice (or more than once plus serving more than half of another president's term). Thus, if we are only considering the 22nd amendment, there would be nothing to prohibit a
    previous two-term president like Obama or W. Bush or Clinton from serving as VP after being elected to two terms, and thus possibly ascending back to the presidency if the incumbent dies or leaves office.

    But we also have the 12th amendment which basically says that if you don't qualify as president, you can't serve as VP. Period. So in my mind, those
    two components of the Constitution together would prohibit a previous two-term president from serving as VP.


    I think the use of "basically" and "period" above is somewhat oxymoronic. Appeals court decisions do not use the word "basically." I am sure you
    know the courts are all about parsing phrases. The 12th amendment's
    relevant phrase seems to me to be "constitutionally ineligible." This
    means one thing to you, basically. To others, it means something
    else. The courts are best for separating the wheat from the chaff.
    Or more accurately, "The law is what the court says tomorrow."

    Two other things:

    First, Justices Breyer, Barrett and Thomas recently going around
    saying there's no politics in SCOTUS's decision making. There are
    'judicial philosophies,' as I believe Justices Barrett and Thomas put
    it. How any rational person (much less a Justice of SCOTUS) could
    think "judicial philosophy" does not reflect one's politics is beyond
    my understanding. Do the Justices think we're all stupid?

    Second, the Aug 2, 2021 New Yorker had an amazing write-up
    about Justice Powell c. 1977-1978 and how Powell had his
    clerk devise a legal argument to preserve affirmative action
    in some form acceptable to a majority of Justices. From the
    article:

    /////////////
    Powell assigned one of his clerks, Robert Comfort, to draft a
    “bench memo” summarizing the case—making clear his initial
    inclinations. Comfort, who is now retired after a career as a tax
    lawyer, told me, when we spoke not long ago, “In Powell’s view,
    the best result was to preserve affirmative action in some form.
    He said, ‘I want to find a middle ground. My client, the country,
    needs for this to be the result. How do we get there?’ ” Powell
    hated the medical school’s system of explicitly reserved places
    for minority applicants. Comfort said, “Powell thought that was offensive—to let politics decide how to cut up the melon.”

    Four Justices were willing to support U.C. Davis. If the case had
    arrived a few years later, John Paul Stevens, who was moving left,
    might have provided a fifth vote. Powell’s biographer John Jeffries
    has written that Powell realized how far the Justices really were
    from reaching a natural consensus when Thurgood Marshall, a
    liberal and the Court’s only Black Justice, said in conference that
    some form of racial recompense would be necessary for the next
    hundred years—it would take that long to heal the wounds left by
    the country’s racial history. “This remark left Powell speechless,” Jeffries writes, giving him “a sharpened sense of the vast gulf that separated him from the liberals.”

    So Comfort had to devise an argument for keeping affirmative
    action while limiting the open use of race in admissions.
    /////////////////

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 18 13:49:37 2021
    According to Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com>:
    2) Being VP and the president leaving office (and keep in mind, the VP >doesn't even have to been in the election at all. ...

    Um, ever hear of a guy named Gerald Ford?

    But the point here is that one can become president or at least acting president without first being VP. If the president dies or resigns
    while there is no VP, next in line is the Speaker.

    The 22nd amendment says no person "shall be elected" who has served
    two terms but Art II says if there is no VP, Congress decides "what
    Officer shall then act as President." There is nothing in that clause
    about elections, but since that language is different from the
    previous language that the president's powers and duties "shall
    devolve on the Vice President", the Speaker becomes Acting President,
    not President.

    When the order of succession was last changed in 1947, Truman wanted a special election
    if both pres and VP died but the Congress wasn't interested.

    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Sat Sep 18 20:57:53 2021
    "Mike Anderson" wrote in message news:si530f$usn$3@dont-email.me...

    On 9/18/2021 8:18 AM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in
    news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
    just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
    (and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
    have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
    fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
    still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
    amendment.

    According to Trump he was elected to a second term. Shouldn't that
    prevent him from running again?


    *laugh* Good point.

    But if there was such a good case for fraud in the elections, my main >question is "why did no judge agree?" Out of 60+ court cases, they won how >many? Three, I think, and even those were minor things like "yes, the poll >observers can get a few feet closer" and such.

    Because Trump never had a legal case and I suspect at a certain point he
    knew that. He was trying to make a political case using the power of his office and was hoping he could stir up enough supporters to force some kind
    of political action by the VP and Congress. What's not clear to me is if he actually thought this would work or if he was just doing it as a Hail Mary
    to set himself up as a martyr to his hardest core supporters.

    --

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to Mike Anderson on Sat Sep 18 21:42:47 2021
    Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote:

    1) Elected to the office.
    2) Being VP and the president leaving office (and keep in mind,
    the VP doesn't even have to been in the election at all. If Kamala
    Harris left office today and John Doe took over as VP and then
    Biden leaves office two days later, John Doe was never part of a
    presidential election at all (he was subject to a confirmation but
    not an election) but is still president.

    That's exactly how Gerald Ford became President.

    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to Rick on Sat Sep 18 21:43:15 2021
    On 9/18/2021 8:57 PM, Rick wrote:
    "Mike Anderson"  wrote in message news:si530f$usn$3@dont-email.me...

    On 9/18/2021 8:18 AM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:
    Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in
    news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

    Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
    just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
    (and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
    have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
    fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
    still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
    amendment.

    According to Trump he was elected to a second term.  Shouldn't that
    prevent him from running again?


    *laugh* Good point.

    But if there was such a good case for fraud in the elections, my main
    question is "why did no judge agree?" Out of 60+ court cases, they won
    how many? Three, I think, and even those were minor things like "yes,
    the poll observers can get a few feet closer" and such.

    Because Trump never had a legal case and I suspect at a certain point he
    knew that.  He was trying to make a political case using the power of
    his office and was hoping he could stir up enough supporters to force
    some kind of political action by the VP and Congress.  What's not clear
    to me is if he actually thought this would work or if he was just doing
    it as a Hail Mary to set himself up as a martyr to his hardest core supporters.


    Neither, I think. It's just a scam to get people to contribute money to
    his campaign. Which buys services from a corporation that Trump owns...


    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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