Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
president again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
steps down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down.
Now Obama's in his 4th term.

Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of
it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
president again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
steps down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down.
Now Obama's in his 4th term.

Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of
it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
United States."

Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

Another scenario would be when the President dies and the VP is not
available. Would a "constitutionally ineligible" speaker of the House
become president or be skipped?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Roy" wrote in message news:shsvqq$spf$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if a
vice president becomes president and how it affects running for president
again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential
candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he steps
down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down.
Now Obama's in his 4th term.

Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of
it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
United States."

Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would >obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

Another scenario would be when the President dies and the VP is not >available. Would a "constitutionally ineligible" speaker of the House
become president or be skipped?

I don't get why this is considered murky. The 12th Amendment seems very
clear when it says no one ineligible to be president can be eligible for
Vice President. That's about as clear-cut and non-murky as it gets, no?

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there is no VP, that would seem to work.
--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/15/2021 10:27 AM, Roy wrote:

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
President, for more than two years of a term to which some other
person was elected President shall be elected to the office of
President more than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens
when/if a vice president becomes president and how it affects running
for president again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the
presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president
can't become veep?)

They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
steps down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one
day.

Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps
down. Now Obama's in his 4th term.

Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood
of it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if
there's any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
United States."

Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky.  It would obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

Another scenario would be when the President dies and the VP is not available.  Would a "constitutionally ineligible" speaker of the House become president or be skipped?

Ok, yeah, the 12th would seem to forbid it. Thanx. I wasn't ever
expecting it to come up as a real issue anyway.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sht4hs$13qh$1@gioia.aioe.org:

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
is no VP, that would seem to work.

That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
President would be limited to a term of just two more years.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/15/2021 4:32 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

"Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sht4hs$13qh$1@gioia.aioe.org:

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
is no VP, that would seem to work.

That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
President would be limited to a term of just two more years.

A more possible scenario is that the Speaker is an immigrant and not
born in the US

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
president again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:

But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President

shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump.

But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And I
suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.


--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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According to Stuart O. Bronstein <spamtrap@lexregia.com>:

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
is no VP, that would seem to work.

That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
President would be limited to a term of just two more years.

That's not what the Constitution says. Art II sec 1 says that if there
is neither a president nor vice president, "the Congress may by law
provide for the Case of Removal, Death, Resignation or Inability, both
of the President and Vice President, declaring what Officer shall then
act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly, until the
Disability be removed, or a President shall be elected."

Since there is no way to elect a president other than the usual
four-year election, the Speaker or whoever remains in office for
the rest of the term.

Don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the Speaker of the House need not be a member of the House, although he or she always has been.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/15/2021 7:07 PM, John Levine wrote:

Don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but the Speaker of the House need
not be a member of the House, although he or she always has been.

Are you sure? I know the Constitution is mute on this point, but what
about the House's rules of order?

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Roy" wrote in message news:shu4fc$iqh$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/15/2021 4:32 PM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

"Rick" <rick@nospam.com> wrote in news:sht4hs$13qh$1@gioia.aioe.org:

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes
Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there
is no VP, that would seem to work.

That would seem to work to a point. But in that case I suspect the
President would be limited to a term of just two more years.

A more possible scenario is that the Speaker is an immigrant and not born
in the US

But in that case, they would clearly not be qualified to be president, so I would think it would go to the next person in line. The same scenario would apply if the Speaker were under 35 years of age - also a definite
possibility.

--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 9/15/2021 8:53 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
President, for more than two years of a term to which some other
person was elected President shall be elected to the office of
President more than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens
when/if a vice president becomes president and how it affects running
for president again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the
presidential candidate (is there anything that says a former president
can't become veep?)

Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:

But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President

shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump.

But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And I suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking just of
the two-term people that can't be elected a third time (and even then,
only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could have as easily been Joe
several years in the future or even a fictitious president or "could
this have happened when Regan was still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th amendment.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Barry Gold <bgold@labcats.org> wrote:

However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of
the House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to
die or resign, Obama would then become President and could serve
out the remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or
(shudder!) Trump.

But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC.
And I suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a
lifetime.

It's not like either of them needs the money. :-)

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:31:06 AM UTC-6, Rick wrote:

"Roy" wrote in message news:shsvqq$spf$1...@dont-email.me...

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if a >> vice president becomes president and how it affects running for president >> again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential >> candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he steps >> down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps down. >> Now Obama's in his 4th term.

Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood of >> it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if there's
any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the >office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the >United States."

Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would >obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

[snip]

I don't get why this is considered murky. The 12th Amendment seems very
clear when it says no one ineligible to be president can be eligible for
Vice President. That's about as clear-cut and non-murky as it gets, no?

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes Speaker of the House and is elevated to the presidency when there is no VP, that would seem to work.

I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's
phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th amendment.

In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP Barack Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally ineligible"
would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
(at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in particular, and possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Mike Anderson" wrote in message news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/15/2021 8:53 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens when/if
a vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
president again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the presidential >>> candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:

But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President

shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump.

But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And I
suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking just of the >two-term people that can't be elected a third time (and even then, only
said "Obama" just to have a name. It could have as easily been Joe several >years in the future or even a fictitious president or "could this have >happened when Regan was still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting
about the 12th amendment.

Reagan was already rumored to be experiencing the beginnings of Alzheimer's when his second term ended, so I doubt he would have ever seriously been considered for a backdoor third term like this.

But Obama, Clinton and G.W. Bush all left office at relatively young ages
and even today are all younger than Biden.

--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Elle N" wrote in message news:36254838-8d3a-4c42-be49-50b981a0c71an@googlegroups.com...

On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 10:31:06 AM UTC-6, Rick wrote:

"Roy" wrote in message news:shsvqq$spf$1...@dont-email.me...

On 9/15/2021 6:38 AM, Mike Anderson wrote:

Hypothetical (and it was actually brought up on the news about another
country. I just didn't catch where) way to get around a term limit?

"No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than
twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as
President, for more than two years of a term to which some other
person
was elected President shall be elected to the office of President more
than once."

It says nothing about a vice president (other than what happens
when/if a
vice president becomes president and how it affects running for
president
again.)

So what would keep, for example, the following from happening:

Obama (or any other two runs as a veep with John Doe as the
presidential
candidate (is there anything that says a former president can't become
veep?)

They win the election and John Doe is inaugurated. The next day, he
steps
down and Obama becomes president for a 3rd 4-year term, less one day.

Obama then runs as veep with John Q Public. President Public steps
down.
Now Obama's in his 4th term.

Rinse and repeat as often as they can do so and get away with it.

Anyone see why this couldn't happen? (not asking about the likelihood
of
it happening as I see the odds being slim but looking to see if
there's
any legal prohibition against it working at all.)

The 12th amendment says "no person constitutionally ineligible to the
office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the
United States."

Your scenario has been debated and the answer is a bit murky. It would
obviously be a question for the Supreme Court.

[snip]

I don't get why this is considered murky. The 12th Amendment seems very
clear when it says no one ineligible to be president can be eligible for
Vice President. That's about as clear-cut and non-murky as it gets, no?

OTOH, in the scenario where the former two-term president becomes Speaker
of
the House and is elevated to the presidency when there is no VP, that
would
seem to work.

I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's >phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the presidency >more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th >amendment.

In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP
Barack
Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally ineligible" >would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
(at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in particular,
and
possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the
requirements of Article II. After all, the requirements for age,
citizenship, etc. could all potentially be modified by later amendments.
For example, if a later amendment is passed lowering the required minimum
age to 30, then that would clearly apply. To me the phrase
"constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due to not meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.


--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:21:53 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:

"Elle N" wrote in message

I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's >phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the presidency >more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th >amendment.

In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late >president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP >Barack
Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally ineligible" >would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
(at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in particular, >and
possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the requirements of Article II.

I never said "only."

To me the phrase
"constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due to not meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.

For me to take your response seriously, you would have to address my
argument about the use of the word "elected" in the 22nd amendment.
It's clear to me that the 22nd amendment prohibits a person
being elected to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does
not speak to ascending to the presidency by other means.

Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
really meant to say a person could not serve more than
two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
four+ year process of adding this Constitutional amendment.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Elle N" wrote in message news:1f6147e8-b07c-40d7-80e3-eb90c4f0eec9n@googlegroups.com...

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:21:53 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:

"Elle N" wrote in message

I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's
phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the
presidency
more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the 25th
amendment.

In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP
Barack
Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally
ineligible"
would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements
(at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in
particular,
and
possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the
requirements of Article II.

I never said "only."

To me the phrase
"constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due to
not
meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.

For me to take your response seriously, you would have to address my
argument about the use of the word "elected" in the 22nd amendment.
It's clear to me that the 22nd amendment prohibits a person
being elected to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does
not speak to ascending to the presidency by other means.

Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
really meant to say a person could not serve more than
two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
four+ year process of adding this Constitutional amendment.

I absolutely agree that the 22nd amendment only prohibits a person from
being elected to the presidency more than twice (or more than once plus
serving more than half of another president's term). Thus, if we are only considering the 22nd amendment, there would be nothing to prohibit a
previous two-term president like Obama or W. Bush or Clinton from serving as
VP after being elected to two terms, and thus possibly ascending back to the presidency if the incumbent dies or leaves office.

But we also have the 12th amendment which basically says that if you don't qualify as president, you can't serve as VP. Period. So in my mind, those
two components of the Constitution together would prohibit a previous
two-term president from serving as VP.

--

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Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
(and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
amendment.

According to Trump he was elected to a second term. Shouldn't that
prevent him from running again?

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 9/17/2021 7:36 PM, Rick wrote:

"Mike Anderson"  wrote in message news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me...

On 9/15/2021 8:53 PM, Barry Gold wrote:

Your scenario breaks down right there. From Amendment 12:

But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of

President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United
States.

However, if Obama were to run for Congress and become Speaker of the
House, and then both the President and Vice-President were to die or
resign, Obama would then become President and could serve out the
remainder of that term. So could GWB, Bill Clinton, or (shudder!) Trump. >>>
But Obama won't: Michelle has had quite enough of Washington, DC. And
I suspect Bill Clinton has also had enough of politics for a lifetime.

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking just
of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time (and even
then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could have as easily
been Joe several years in the future or even a fictitious president or
"could this have happened when Regan was still alive?", etc.) But yes,
I was forgetting about the 12th amendment.

Reagan was already rumored to be experiencing the beginnings of
Alzheimer's when his second term ended, so I doubt he would have ever seriously been considered for a backdoor third term like this.

Agreed but again, this is a discussion on what would be legally possible
and not what would be or would not be probable. I was simply looking at "elected to two term" presidents since the 22 was ratified and those are Eisenhower, Reagan, Clinton, "Shrub" and Obama. So Eisenhower was the
only one I was overlooking as asking "could this have *legally* happened
to him?" (and never ""could this have *probably* happened to him?" as I
don't see this ever actually being a real issue.)

But Obama, Clinton and G.W. Bush all left office at relatively young
ages and even today are all younger than Biden.

--

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On 9/18/2021 12:38 AM, Rick wrote:

"Elle N"  wrote in message news:1f6147e8-b07c-40d7-80e3-eb90c4f0eec9n@googlegroups.com...

On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:21:53 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:

"Elle N" wrote in message

I think it's murky because of the ambiguity of the the 12th amendment's >>> >phrase "constitutionally ineligible."

The 22nd amendment prohibits a person being // elected // to the
presidency
more than twice. But the 22nd does not speak of a person becoming
president via, say, either Art II, Section 1, clause 6 or, say, the

25th

amendment.

In other words: A VP who becomes president on account of the late
president's death has not been elected. In the case of hypothetical VP
Barack
Obama, ascending to the presidency because the president died,
no violation of the 22nd amendment has occurred.

The 12th amendment's reference to "no person constitutionally
ineligible"
would seem to me to refer to Art II, Section 1, clause 5's requirements >>> >(at least 35 years old; a natural born citizen; et cetera) in
particular,
and
possibly some other requirements that appear to add to the murk.

I guess I don't agree that the 12th amendment would only cover the
requirements of Article II.

I never said "only."

To me the phrase
"constitutionally ineligible" is very clear and means ineligible due
to not
meeting any Constitutional articles or amendments.

For me to take your response seriously, you would have to address my
argument about the use of the word "elected" in the 22nd amendment.
It's clear to me that the 22nd amendment prohibits a person
being elected to the presidency more than twice. But the 22nd does
not speak to ascending to the presidency by other means.

Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
really meant to say a person could not serve more than
two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
four+ year process of  adding this Constitutional amendment.

I absolutely agree that the 22nd amendment only prohibits a person from
being elected to the presidency more than twice (or more than once plus serving more than half of another president's term).  Thus, if we are
only considering the 22nd amendment, there would be nothing to prohibit
a previous two-term president like Obama or W. Bush or Clinton from
serving as VP after being elected to two terms, and thus possibly
ascending back to the presidency if the incumbent dies or leaves office.

But we also have the 12th amendment which basically says that if you
don't qualify as president, you can't serve as VP.  Period.  So in my
mind, those two components of the Constitution together would prohibit a previous two-term president from serving as VP.

I think the key part here may be "what does 'qualify' mean in this
context?" and Elle has a point here that I wasn't considering.

#22 doesn't seem to change what makes a person "qualify to be president"
but simply seems to cover two ways (and ONLY two ways) a person can
BECOME president, those being:

1) Elected to the office.
2) Being VP and the president leaving office (and keep in mind, the VP
doesn't even have to been in the election at all. If Kamala Harris left
office today and John Doe took over as VP and then Biden leaves office
two days later, John Doe was never part of a presidential election at
all (he was subject to a confirmation but not an election) but is still president.

#25 states ways that a person can become president (death of the
president, resignation of the president, removal of the president, etc.)
And the Constitution says what qualifications a person must meet to be president (natural-born, over 35, etc) and basically #12 says "If you're
an immigrant or under 35, etc than you can't be veep, either." So Obama
is over 35, natural-born, etc and would NOT be "[...]elected to the
office of the President more than twice," even in my original hypothetical.

And along that note, let's change this around a bit. It would seem that
if Obama had stepped down after a month and Biden became president for
3y 11m, then John Doe won the primary in 2012 and Joe Biden was his veep
and John Doe stepped down and Biden again became president for 3y 11m,
then he could STILL have run for president in 2020 as he'd never been
*elected* to the office. In fact, it seems that he could have had
SEVERAL 3y 11m terms as president based on being elected VP and then the president stepping down, dying, etc. as long as he was never actually
ELECTED to the office of president.

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On 9/18/2021 8:18 AM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
(and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
amendment.

According to Trump he was elected to a second term. Shouldn't that
prevent him from running again?

*laugh* Good point.

But if there was such a good case for fraud in the elections, my main
question is "why did no judge agree?" Out of 60+ court cases, they won
how many? Three, I think, and even those were minor things like "yes,
the poll observers can get a few feet closer" and such.

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On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 10:38:21 PM UTC-6, Rick wrote:

Go look up the history of the 22nd and see if someone
messed up when choosing the word "elected." Perhaps the someone
really meant to say a person could not serve more than
two full terms as president. If the use of the word "elected"
was a typ-o / amendment-o, then a surprising number of
attorneys missed this during the massive, labor-intense,
four+ year process of adding this Constitutional amendment.

I absolutely agree that the 22nd amendment only prohibits a person from
being elected to the presidency more than twice (or more than once plus serving more than half of another president's term). Thus, if we are only considering the 22nd amendment, there would be nothing to prohibit a
previous two-term president like Obama or W. Bush or Clinton from serving as VP after being elected to two terms, and thus possibly ascending back to the presidency if the incumbent dies or leaves office.

But we also have the 12th amendment which basically says that if you don't qualify as president, you can't serve as VP. Period. So in my mind, those
two components of the Constitution together would prohibit a previous two-term president from serving as VP.

I think the use of "basically" and "period" above is somewhat oxymoronic. Appeals court decisions do not use the word "basically." I am sure you
know the courts are all about parsing phrases. The 12th amendment's
relevant phrase seems to me to be "constitutionally ineligible." This
means one thing to you, basically. To others, it means something
else. The courts are best for separating the wheat from the chaff.
Or more accurately, "The law is what the court says tomorrow."

Two other things:

First, Justices Breyer, Barrett and Thomas recently going around
saying there's no politics in SCOTUS's decision making. There are
'judicial philosophies,' as I believe Justices Barrett and Thomas put
it. How any rational person (much less a Justice of SCOTUS) could
think "judicial philosophy" does not reflect one's politics is beyond
my understanding. Do the Justices think we're all stupid?

Second, the Aug 2, 2021 New Yorker had an amazing write-up
about Justice Powell c. 1977-1978 and how Powell had his
clerk devise a legal argument to preserve affirmative action
in some form acceptable to a majority of Justices. From the
article:

/////////////
Powell assigned one of his clerks, Robert Comfort, to draft a
“bench memo” summarizing the case—making clear his initial
inclinations. Comfort, who is now retired after a career as a tax
lawyer, told me, when we spoke not long ago, “In Powell’s view,
the best result was to preserve affirmative action in some form.
He said, ‘I want to find a middle ground. My client, the country,
needs for this to be the result. How do we get there?’ ” Powell
hated the medical school’s system of explicitly reserved places
for minority applicants. Comfort said, “Powell thought that was offensive—to let politics decide how to cut up the melon.”

Four Justices were willing to support U.C. Davis. If the case had
arrived a few years later, John Paul Stevens, who was moving left,
might have provided a fifth vote. Powell’s biographer John Jeffries
has written that Powell realized how far the Justices really were
from reaching a natural consensus when Thurgood Marshall, a
liberal and the Court’s only Black Justice, said in conference that
some form of racial recompense would be necessary for the next
hundred years—it would take that long to heal the wounds left by
the country’s racial history. “This remark left Powell speechless,” Jeffries writes, giving him “a sharpened sense of the vast gulf that separated him from the liberals.”

So Comfort had to devise an argument for keeping affirmative
action while limiting the open use of race in admissions.
/////////////////

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According to Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com>:

2) Being VP and the president leaving office (and keep in mind, the VP >doesn't even have to been in the election at all. ...

Um, ever hear of a guy named Gerald Ford?

But the point here is that one can become president or at least acting president without first being VP. If the president dies or resigns
while there is no VP, next in line is the Speaker.

The 22nd amendment says no person "shall be elected" who has served
two terms but Art II says if there is no VP, Congress decides "what
Officer shall then act as President." There is nothing in that clause
about elections, but since that language is different from the
previous language that the president's powers and duties "shall
devolve on the Vice President", the Speaker becomes Acting President,
not President.

When the order of succession was last changed in 1947, Truman wanted a special election
if both pres and VP died but the Congress wasn't interested.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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"Mike Anderson" wrote in message news:si530f$usn$3@dont-email.me...

On 9/18/2021 8:18 AM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in
news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
(and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
amendment.

According to Trump he was elected to a second term. Shouldn't that
prevent him from running again?

*laugh* Good point.

But if there was such a good case for fraud in the elections, my main >question is "why did no judge agree?" Out of 60+ court cases, they won how >many? Three, I think, and even those were minor things like "yes, the poll >observers can get a few feet closer" and such.

Because Trump never had a legal case and I suspect at a certain point he
knew that. He was trying to make a political case using the power of his office and was hoping he could stir up enough supporters to force some kind
of political action by the VP and Congress. What's not clear to me is if he actually thought this would work or if he was just doing it as a Hail Mary
to set himself up as a martyr to his hardest core supporters.

--

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Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote:

1) Elected to the office.
2) Being VP and the president leaving office (and keep in mind,
the VP doesn't even have to been in the election at all. If Kamala
Harris left office today and John Doe took over as VP and then
Biden leaves office two days later, John Doe was never part of a
presidential election at all (he was subject to a confirmation but
not an election) but is still president.

That's exactly how Gerald Ford became President.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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On 9/18/2021 8:57 PM, Rick wrote:

"Mike Anderson"  wrote in message news:si530f$usn$3@dont-email.me...

On 9/18/2021 8:18 AM, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Mike Anderson <prabbit237@gmail.com.com> wrote in
news:shvvvh$jqr$1@dont-email.me:

Trump could still be elected for another term so I was thinking
just of the two-term people that can't be elected a third time
(and even then, only said "Obama" just to have a name. It could
have as easily been Joe several years in the future or even a
fictitious president or "could this have happened when Regan was
still alive?", etc.) But yes, I was forgetting about the 12th
amendment.

According to Trump he was elected to a second term.  Shouldn't that
prevent him from running again?

*laugh* Good point.

But if there was such a good case for fraud in the elections, my main
question is "why did no judge agree?" Out of 60+ court cases, they won
how many? Three, I think, and even those were minor things like "yes,
the poll observers can get a few feet closer" and such.

Because Trump never had a legal case and I suspect at a certain point he
knew that.  He was trying to make a political case using the power of
his office and was hoping he could stir up enough supporters to force
some kind of political action by the VP and Congress.  What's not clear
to me is if he actually thought this would work or if he was just doing
it as a Hail Mary to set himself up as a martyr to his hardest core supporters.

Neither, I think. It's just a scam to get people to contribute money to
his campaign. Which buys services from a corporation that Trump owns...


--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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