At a crime scene, the police can seize anything they
deem as evidence, and keep it for the duration. No judge's
warrants needed.

Today, in our Orwellian world, where Big Brother
watches everything, is this not problematic, when the
evidence is on camera? Or magnetic disk, more accurately.

I'm thinking of large corporate campuses, or shopping
malls. The cameras are installed for purpose of the
property owner, not the public; e.g trespassing and such.
And for the secutity of the employees, not yours.

Let's say you're a visitor, outdoors, on the premises.
You're victimized by crime, like theft. You go to
security, tell your story, they won't show you the video.
"I'm sorry, sir, we have our rules!" They may or may not call police.

You call police. Security will permit the cop to see the
film (out of intimidation, more than legal necessity).
He witnesses the incident.

How does he seize the evidence? What are the procedures?
Goes to the computer room, rips the disk out of the wall socket?

--
Rich

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/14/2021 9:52 PM, RichD wrote:

At a crime scene, the police can seize anything they
deem as evidence, and keep it for the duration. No judge's
warrants needed.

Today, in our Orwellian world, where Big Brother
watches everything, is this not problematic, when the
evidence is on camera? Or magnetic disk, more accurately.

I'm thinking of large corporate campuses, or shopping
malls. The cameras are installed for purpose of the
property owner, not the public; e.g trespassing and such.
And for the secutity of the employees, not yours.

Let's say you're a visitor, outdoors, on the premises.
You're victimized by crime, like theft. You go to
security, tell your story, they won't show you the video.
"I'm sorry, sir, we have our rules!" They may or may not call police.

You call police. Security will permit the cop to see the
film (out of intimidation, more than legal necessity).
He witnesses the incident.

How does he seize the evidence? What are the procedures?
Goes to the computer room, rips the disk out of the wall socket?

--
Rich

In most cases, a security camera yards away from the actual crime
location would not be part of the "crime scene". The authorities would
have to obtain a warrant or a subpoena duces tecum.

Since the video only exists in electronic format, they would probably
get an electronic copy made by either the person with the video or by a
police technician.

You could sue the premises owner and get a subpoena to force them to
give you a copy of the video.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In misc.legal.moderated, Roy <montanawolf@outlook.com> wrote:

In most cases, a security camera yards away from the actual crime
location would not be part of the "crime scene". The authorities would
have to obtain a warrant or a subpoena duces tecum.

Since the video only exists in electronic format, they would probably
get an electronic copy made by either the person with the video or by a police technician.

You could sue the premises owner and get a subpoena to force them to
give you a copy of the video.

This is an interesting distinction / rational that I as a non-lawyer
never really thought hard about. There's an interesting story on
Twitter that involves getting a copy of video evidence.

The story begins here:

https://twitter.com/dguido/status/1424921717051469833

Rough summary is: Guido has an electric scooter and lives in NYC.
Concerned about scooter theft he has put two Apple Airtag tracking
devices on the scooter. One he expects to be found by any moderately competetant thief, the other he expects to go unnoticed.

Eventually his scooter is stolen. He's able to track to a particular
building by the well concealled Airtag. He goes to the police and after
much cajoling manages to convince them to come with him.

The scooter is in an electric bike shop called "Fly E-Bike". The staff
in the store deny the possibility of having any stolen goods and are
only reluctantly convinced because of the Airtag (which can be made
to play sounds for auditory help in finding something).

Let's switch to direct quotes now:

As I further inspect the scooter, the cops start asking questions:
Do you sell used e-bikes? Do you collect info from the seller? Do
you ask they prove ownership? What is the contact info for the
person who dropped this scooter off? No, No, No, and we don't know.

It's at this point that I noticed there were cameras indoors. In
hushed tones, I excitedly told the cops, "Ask for video from last
Tuesday at noon." As I walked the scooter outside, I further
reiterated, "they'll delete it if you don't get video now."

An employee inside realizes we're investigating further. He
immediately becomes agitated: I should be happy I got my scooter
back and leave. It's my fault for getting it stolen. I'm screwing up
his day. This isn't how we do things in Brooklyn. More joined in.

I move outside while one cop retrieves the evidence, but the most
aggressive employee followed me. He says, "All you're doing is
making enemies." Gets closer to me, and pantomimes shooting me. He
implies I'd get murdered if he sees me again.

I do my best "How to Win Friends" and find things to agree with him
on. To their credit, the employees not harassing me outside
cooperated and provided the video. It's a woman, and they claim she
didn't leave a phone number.

So I get from Roy's response, the police had to get the staff to
co-operate or get a court order to force co-operation. And from the
sound of it, the police were not willing to really do much work, so
court order is probably unlikely to hope for, and the staff probably
could have resisted all requests and even deleted the video.

I'm correct in believing there's no legal obligation to keep the store
from deleting the tape after the cops left, assuming they left before
any court order arrived, right?

Just working that out from: "If I hold video evidence of a possible
crime, I don't need to preserve that evidence at my expense absent a
court order" which I believe to be correct.

In this case, receiving stolen goods, the shop has every right to
presume the person who brought the scooter in is innocent, correct?
Guido has told us his story, but nothing has been decided in a court.

(Others have pointed out, if it is this hard for a white guy to get the
police to get off their asses and investigate a crime, immagine how hard
it is for so many others.)

Elijah
------
wanting to make a vague scenario much more specific

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/16/2021 6:29 AM, Eli the Bearded wrote:

I'm correct in believing there's no legal obligation to keep the store
from deleting the tape after the cops left, assuming they left before
any court order arrived, right?

Just working that out from: "If I hold video evidence of a possible
crime, I don't need to preserve that evidence at my expense absent a
court order" which I believe to be correct.

In this case, receiving stolen goods, the shop has every right to
presume the person who brought the scooter in is innocent, correct?
Guido has told us his story, but nothing has been decided in a court.

(Others have pointed out, if it is this hard for a white guy to get the police to get off their asses and investigate a crime, immagine how hard
it is for so many others.)

There's this thing called Spoliation of Evidence. If you intentionally
destroy or tamper with evidence, you have committed a crime. If the
evidence could show that you committed a tort (something you can be sued
for), the court can assume the worst -- that the evidence WOULD have
shown that.

If the store has a policy of deleting videos after 3 days (e.g., to save
disk space), that's fine. But if they have the video and then wipe it or
change it when subpoenaed, they are in big trouble.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampering_with_evidence

Video (or any other evidence) can be obtained one of three ways:
1. The cops take it from the crime scene, mark it, and put it in the
"evidence locker" (actually one or more fairly large rooms in a big city department).
2. The police or a private person asks the person/company that holds the evidence and the holder voluntarily gives it up.
3. Someone issues a "subpoena duces tecem" (under penalty of law, you
will bring it with you). Then the holder is required to either show up
in court with it, or yield it to the issuer in advance.

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/15/2021 5:15 PM, Roy wrote:

On 8/14/2021 9:52 PM, RichD wrote:

At a crime scene, the police can seize anything they
deem as evidence, and keep it for the duration.  No judge's
warrants needed.

Today, in our Orwellian world, where Big Brother
watches everything, is this not problematic, when the
evidence is on camera?  Or magnetic disk, more accurately.

I'm thinking of large corporate campuses, or shopping
malls.  The cameras are installed for purpose of the
property owner, not the public; e.g trespassing and such.
And for the secutity of the employees, not yours.

Let's say you're a visitor, outdoors, on the premises.
You're victimized by crime, like theft.  You go to
security, tell your story, they won't show you the video.
"I'm sorry, sir, we have our rules!"  They may or may not call police.

You call police.  Security will permit the cop to see the
film (out of intimidation, more than legal necessity).
He witnesses the incident.

How does he seize the evidence?  What are the procedures?
Goes to the computer room, rips the disk out of the wall socket?

--
Rich

In most cases, a security camera yards away from the actual crime
location would not be part of the "crime scene".  The authorities would
have to obtain a warrant or a subpoena duces tecum.

Since the video only exists in electronic format, they would probably
get an electronic copy made by either the person with the video or by a police technician.

You could sue the premises owner and get a subpoena to force them to
give you a copy of the video.

I can't see a security camera that is close enough to have taken video
that can be used to identify someone could somehow be "outside the
scene." If I killed someone, then the blood trail that goes down the
block could all be considered part of the scene of the crime as long as
it's showing a reasonably continuous trail. So if there was a trail of
blood that ended at the door, they couldn't claim other blood five miles
away constituted part of the scene and impound anything and everything
in between (but maybe it could constitute a secondary scene.) But if I
killed someone at one end of a shopping mall and there was reason to
think I left by an exit at the other end or they saw blood drops every
few feet the entire length of the mall, etc, they could cordon off the
whole mall initially to preserve evidence (and then narrow the scope if
they found reason to think there would be no evidence that far away or
maybe witnesses said I actually left via a door right next to the
victim, etc.)

And "yards away" could be anywhere from 6' (2 yards) away to 6 miles
away. Not a very precise term.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On August 16, Barry Gold wrote:

Video (or any other evidence) can be obtained one of three ways:
1. The cops take it from the crime scene, mark it, and put it in the "evidence locker"

um, how do the cops seize the video evidence, when it consists
of binary bits on a magnetic disk?

Which is the original question -

--
Rich

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/17/2021 9:34 PM, Rick wrote:

"RichD"  wrote in message news:8ee79065-00a0-4779-994f-8c91b9f51916n@googlegroups.com...

On August 16, Barry Gold wrote:

Video (or any other evidence) can be obtained one of three ways:
1. The cops take it from the crime scene, mark it, and put it in the
"evidence locker"

um, how do the cops seize the video evidence, when it consists
of binary bits on a magnetic disk?

Which is the original question -

--
Rich

Realistically, there are only two choices here.  The cops can ask the
owner to voluntarily turn over the video in some appropriate media
(disc, USB drive, whatever) or they can present a subpoena granting them
the power to seize any computers, drives, smart phones or whatever else
they can find that might reasonably have the data.   Unless a person's
life is in some imminent danger (and maybe not even then), I don't think
can just ransack private property grabbing any laptops, cell phones or whatever else they can find that might have the video.

--

My security camera videos are encrypted and stored on a server that is
not in the same state as I am. It may not even be in the US. It would
be an uphill battle to declare that server to be a crime scene for a
local crime.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"RichD" wrote in message news:8ee79065-00a0-4779-994f-8c91b9f51916n@googlegroups.com...

On August 16, Barry Gold wrote:

Video (or any other evidence) can be obtained one of three ways:
1. The cops take it from the crime scene, mark it, and put it in the
"evidence locker"

um, how do the cops seize the video evidence, when it consists
of binary bits on a magnetic disk?

Which is the original question -

--
Rich

Realistically, there are only two choices here. The cops can ask the owner
to voluntarily turn over the video in some appropriate media (disc, USB
drive, whatever) or they can present a subpoena granting them the power to seize any computers, drives, smart phones or whatever else they can find
that might reasonably have the data. Unless a person's life is in some imminent danger (and maybe not even then), I don't think can just ransack private property grabbing any laptops, cell phones or whatever else they can find that might have the video.

--

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/17/2021 9:52 PM, Roy wrote:

security camera videos are encrypted and stored on a server that is not
in the same state as I am. It may not even be in the US.  It would be an uphill battle to declare that server to be a crime scene for a local crime.

Then the prosecutor's office will serve you with a subpoena duces tecem,
and you will be required to produce a copy for them.

--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/17/2021 8:12 PM, RichD wrote:

On August 16, Barry Gold wrote:

Video (or any other evidence) can be obtained one of three ways:
1. The cops take it from the crime scene, mark it, and put it in the
"evidence locker"

um, how do the cops seize the video evidence, when it consists
of binary bits on a magnetic disk?

Which is the original question -

They put the disk in an evidence bag and put it in the evidence locker.
If the disk is in a big box (e.g., a desktop computer) they'll take the computer.

Some departments will copy the data on site, or take the computer to
their own experts who will extract the data then return it to the owner.

In any case, the property will (usually) be returned to its owner. But
it might be only after the trial (or after the defendant(s) plead guilty).
--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In misc.legal.moderated, Barry Gold <bgold@labcats.org> wrote:

On 8/17/2021 8:12 PM, RichD wrote:

um, how do the cops seize the video evidence, when it consists
of binary bits on a magnetic disk?

They put the disk in an evidence bag and put it in the evidence locker.
If the disk is in a big box (e.g., a desktop computer) they'll take the computer.

In doing _that_ they would effectively disable the video system from
further use. Does a property owner have any recourse in general? How
about if they are subsequently robbed after the police leave and before
it would be practical to acquire a replacement system?

(For these hypotheticals, let's still keep the location as NYC from the
scooter theft story I was discussing.)

Some departments will copy the data on site, or take the computer to
their own experts who will extract the data then return it to the owner.

In any case, the property will (usually) be returned to its owner. But
it might be only after the trial (or after the defendant(s) plead guilty).

That could be a long time to be without a functional part of a security
system.

I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

The subpeona will make you find it, I guess. :^)

Elijah
------
amused at that sig on this topic

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 8/17/2021 11:12 PM, RichD wrote:

On August 16, Barry Gold wrote:

Video (or any other evidence) can be obtained one of three ways:
1. The cops take it from the crime scene, mark it, and put it in the
"evidence locker"

um, how do the cops seize the video evidence, when it consists
of binary bits on a magnetic disk?

Which is the original question -

--
Rich

They seize the media on which those binary bits exist.

"How do cops seize the cooked books when it consists of graphite smudges
on wood fiber pulp?"

You could claim that piece of paper just contains markings from a pencil
and isn't actually "the names, dates and amounts of the bribes" but the
judge would laugh you out of court (and probably into the slammer.) Same
for "that's just a metal disk. It's not an actual video showing me
paying that bribe to the congress-critter."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)