• is it enforceable?

    From RichD@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 3 21:55:57 2023
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.

    Is it enforceable? How would anyone know (or prove)
    the difference, i.e. between conforming to the new
    regime, vs. not conforming?

    --
    Rich

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  • From Roy@21:1/5 to RichD on Mon Jul 3 22:45:40 2023
    On 7/3/2023 9:55 PM, RichD wrote:
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.

    Is it enforceable? How would anyone know (or prove)
    the difference, i.e. between conforming to the new
    regime, vs. not conforming?

    --
    Rich



    A student who was discriminated against would file a civil suit with all
    the subpoenas, depositions, etc.

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  • From John Levine@21:1/5 to r_delaney2001@yahoo.com on Tue Jul 4 10:09:13 2023
    It appears that RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> said:
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.

    Near the end of the opinion, it says:

    At the same time, as all parties agree, nothing in this opinion
    should be construed as prohibiting universities from considering an
    applicant's discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it
    through discrimination, inspiration, or otherwise.

    So the universities can say we didn't admit this person because of her
    race, we did because of how race affected her life. How could anyone
    prove otherwise?

    That's not necessarily a bad outcome. A whole lot of the minority
    students at selective colleges are from high income families and
    private schools, indistinguishable from the rest of the preppies on
    the tennis team other than their ethnicity. If this forces them to
    look for minority applicants who actually face racial and economic
    barriers, that would be a lot more real diversity than now.

    --
    Regards,
    John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
    Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to Roy on Wed Jul 5 11:55:07 2023
    On July 3, Roy wrote:
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.
    Is it enforceable? How would anyone know (or prove)
    the difference, i.e. between conforming to the new
    regime, vs. not conforming?

    A student who was discriminated against would file a civil suit with all
    the subpoenas, depositions, etc.

    Considering the nebulous, secretive nature of college admissions, especially
    at the elite schools, how could a rejected applicant prove such a case?

    --
    Rich

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 5 12:44:10 2023
    "RichD" wrote in message news:f6c96e4c-5aa2-4e4b-8796-fef23453b074n@googlegroups.com...

    On July 3, Roy wrote:
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.
    Is it enforceable? How would anyone know (or prove)
    the difference, i.e. between conforming to the new
    regime, vs. not conforming?

    A student who was discriminated against would file a civil suit with all
    the subpoenas, depositions, etc.

    Considering the nebulous, secretive nature of college admissions,
    especially
    at the elite schools, how could a rejected applicant prove such a case?

    --
    Rich

    I'm pretty sure a school like Harvard keeps very detailed records of applicants, including detailed demographic info on both accepted and
    rejected applicants. All this info would surely be subpoened and turned
    over in event of a lawsuit.

    --

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to Rick on Wed Jul 5 14:06:11 2023
    On July 5, Rick wrote:
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.
    Is it enforceable? How would anyone know (or prove)
    the difference, i.e. between conforming to the new
    regime, vs. not conforming?

    A student who was discriminated against would file a civil suit with all >>> the subpoenas, depositions, etc.

    Considering the nebulous, secretive nature of college admissions,
    especially at the elite schools, how could a rejected applicant prove such a case?

    I'm pretty sure a school like Harvard keeps very detailed records of applicants, including detailed demographic info on both accepted and
    rejected applicants. All this info would surely be subpoened and turned
    over in event of a lawsuit.

    The devil is in the details -

    It's an invitation for every white and yellow rejected applicant to file.
    Then Harvard says one was rejected because the orchestra doesn't
    need another clarinetist, another because he didn't build enough
    latrines in Zambia during his summers, and another because he got
    caught placing a hidden microphone in the girls rest room.

    So their sterling SAT and GPA scores weren't sufficient, and it isn't
    race quotas, dammit!

    This goes on for a while, finally the courts say enough is enough, and refuse to accept any further cases. And it's back to business as usual -


    --
    Rich

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 5 22:54:01 2023
    "RichD" wrote in message news:7073b43f-8659-44a3-bb46-54b0dfe0737fn@googlegroups.com...

    On July 5, Rick wrote:
    Re the Harvard admissions case - suppose the universities
    continue their race quota policies, while denying this,
    stating they respect the Supreme decision.
    Is it enforceable? How would anyone know (or prove)
    the difference, i.e. between conforming to the new
    regime, vs. not conforming?

    A student who was discriminated against would file a civil suit with
    all
    the subpoenas, depositions, etc.

    Considering the nebulous, secretive nature of college admissions,
    especially at the elite schools, how could a rejected applicant prove
    such a case?

    I'm pretty sure a school like Harvard keeps very detailed records of
    applicants, including detailed demographic info on both accepted and
    rejected applicants. All this info would surely be subpoened and turned
    over in event of a lawsuit.

    The devil is in the details -

    It's an invitation for every white and yellow rejected applicant to file. >Then Harvard says one was rejected because the orchestra doesn't
    need another clarinetist, another because he didn't build enough
    latrines in Zambia during his summers, and another because he got
    caught placing a hidden microphone in the girls rest room.

    So their sterling SAT and GPA scores weren't sufficient, and it isn't
    race quotas, dammit!

    This goes on for a while, finally the courts say enough is enough, and
    refuse
    to accept any further cases. And it's back to business as usual -


    --
    Rich

    But the premise of your question is suppose Harvard just keeps up their practice of race quotas, and I don't think they will do that. Roberts gave them a big out by saying you can't use race per se as an admissions
    criterion, but there is nothing to say that students can't write about their racial experiences in their admission essays, and it's certainly fair game
    for the university to give weight to how well written or how insightful
    those essays are. I think this might give them a backdoor way to work race
    in as an admission factor without basing it on an actual quota.

    --

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  • From RichD@21:1/5 to Rick on Mon Jul 10 10:51:39 2023
    On July 5, Rick wrote:
    But the premise of your question is suppose Harvard just keeps up their practice of race quotas, and I don't think they will do that. Roberts gave them a big out by saying you can't use race per se as an admissions criterion, but there is nothing to say that students can't write about their racial experiences in their admission essays, and it's certainly fair game for the university to give weight to how well written or how insightful
    those essays are. I think this might give them a backdoor way to work race
    in as an admission factor without basing it on an actual quota.

    WSJ ran a column yesterday, on the methods available to
    the colleges to continue their race admission policies.  The
    opionionator has first hand experience in admission offices.

    Now, what if a future Congress decides to override the Harvard
    decision?  "All schools receiving federal aid shall make good faith
    effort to produce a student population ethnically representative of
    the community, statistically."

    Then the court's decision is void?

    --
    Rich

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  • From Stuart O. Bronstein@21:1/5 to RichD on Mon Jul 10 11:26:36 2023
    RichD <r_delaney2001@yahoo.com> wrote in news:6f6f85b8-35d0-4562-8fda-cbf58ef225a3n@googlegroups.com:

    On July 5, Rick wrote:
    But the premise of your question is suppose Harvard just keeps up
    their practice of race quotas, and I don't think they will do that.
    Roberts gave them a big out by saying you can't use race per se as an
    admissions criterion, but there is nothing to say that students can't
    write about their racial experiences in their admission essays, and
    it's certainly fair game for the university to give weight to how
    well written or how insightful those essays are. I think this might
    give them a backdoor way to work race in as an admission factor
    without basing it on an actual quota.

    WSJ ran a column yesterday, on the methods available to
    the colleges to continue their race admission policies.  The
    opionionator has first hand experience in admission offices.

    Now, what if a future Congress decides to override the Harvard
    decision?  "All schools receiving federal aid shall make good faith
    effort to produce a student population ethnically representative of
    the community, statistically."

    Then the court's decision is void?

    No, Congress can't normally overrule the Supreme Court with respect to constitutional issues. Sometimes when the Court makes a ruling based on
    a statute, Congress can weigh in.


    --
    Stu
    http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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  • From Rick@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 10 19:53:31 2023
    "RichD" wrote in message news:6f6f85b8-35d0-4562-8fda-cbf58ef225a3n@googlegroups.com...

    On July 5, Rick wrote:
    But the premise of your question is suppose Harvard just keeps up their
    practice of race quotas, and I don't think they will do that. Roberts
    gave
    them a big out by saying you can't use race per se as an admissions
    criterion, but there is nothing to say that students can't write about
    their
    racial experiences in their admission essays, and it's certainly fair
    game
    for the university to give weight to how well written or how insightful
    those essays are. I think this might give them a backdoor way to work
    race
    in as an admission factor without basing it on an actual quota.

    WSJ ran a column yesterday, on the methods available to
    the colleges to continue their race admission policies. The
    opionionator has first hand experience in admission offices.

    Now, what if a future Congress decides to override the Harvard
    decision? "All schools receiving federal aid shall make good faith
    effort to produce a student population ethnically representative of
    the community, statistically."

    Then the court's decision is void?

    --
    Rich

    No, I think the only way this could be overridden would be through a constitutional amendment.

    --

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  • From Barry Gold@21:1/5 to RichD on Tue Jul 11 07:00:47 2023
    On 7/10/2023 10:51 AM, RichD wrote:
    WSJ ran a column yesterday, on the methods available to
    the colleges to continue their race admission policies.  The
    opionionator has first hand experience in admission offices.

    Now, what if a future Congress decides to override the Harvard
    decision?  "All schools receiving federal aid shall make good faith
    effort to produce a student population ethnically representative of
    the community, statistically."

    Then the court's decision is void?

    That would probably run into the 14th Amendment:
    1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to
    the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the
    State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which
    shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United
    States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or
    property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    That "equal protection" is often interpreted as meaning that the
    government (all levels) cannot discriminate between people on the basis
    of race, religion, skin color, etc.

    --
    I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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