In today's guardian:

Ben Roberts-Smith and four key witnesses he called were not honest or
reliable when it came to their evidence, a federal court justice has
found in the full judgment of the war veteran’s defamation case.

that's all well and good, but

Justice Anthony Besanko’s complete judgment – 736 pages long – was
published on Monday afternoon after he delivered an initial summary
decision in court on Thursday.

Really? *736*pages*?

/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
--> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote in news:5bbs7ith6c1gd2fbrpn6m2g2naq6nbq647@4ax.com:

In today's guardian:

Ben Roberts-Smith and four key witnesses he called were not
honest or reliable when it came to their evidence, a federal
court justice has found in the full judgment of the war
veteran’s defamation case.

that's all well and good, but

Justice Anthony Besanko’s complete judgment – 736 pages long –
was
published on Monday afternoon after he delivered an initial
summary
decision in court on Thursday.

Really? *736*pages*?

I guess it was a REALLY complicated case.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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In misc.legal.moderated, on Mon, 5 Jun 2023 13:30:17 -0700 (PDT), Bernie
Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:

In today's guardian:

Ben Roberts-Smith and four key witnesses he called were not honest or
reliable when it came to their evidence, a federal court justice has
found in the full judgment of the war veteran’s defamation case.

that's all well and good, but

Justice Anthony Besanko’s complete judgment – 736 pages long – was
published on Monday afternoon after he delivered an initial summary
decision in court on Thursday.

Really? *736*pages*?

That does seem long. Have computers made it easier to turn out long
decisions?

/Bernie\

If it's any consolation, Anthony Besanko is an Australian judge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Besanko

--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.

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micky <misc07@fmguy.com> wrote:

} In misc.legal.moderated, on Mon, 5 Jun 2023 13:30:17 -0700 (PDT), Bernie
} Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com> wrote:
}
} >In today's guardian:
} >
} > Ben Roberts-Smith and four key witnesses he called were not honest or
} > reliable when it came to their evidence, a federal court justice has
} > found in the full judgment of the war veteran’s defamation case.
} >
} >that's all well and good, but
} >
} > Justice Anthony Besanko’s complete judgment – 736 pages long – was
} > published on Monday afternoon after he delivered an initial summary
} > decision in court on Thursday.
} >
} >Really? *736*pages*?
}
} That does seem long. Have computers made it easier to turn out long
} decisions?

For comparison, War and Peace only runs to about 500 pages. The complete works of Sherlock Holmes about 450.

It is a *long* judgment. do you think *anyone* has/will read it? :o)

/Bernie\
--
Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers
bernie@fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA
--> Too many people, too few sheep <--

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On June 5, Bernie Cosell wrote:

Justice Anthony Besanko’s complete judgment – 736 pages long – was

published on Monday afternoon after he delivered an initial summary
decision in court on Thursday.

Really? *736*pages*?

ChatGPT is really getting around -

--
Rich

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According to Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>:

Really? *736*pages*?

You can read it here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/650718356/Ben-Roberts-Smith-VC-MG-defamation-action-full-judgement

The judge went through all of the charges, all of the evidence, and
all of the witnesses, describing each and how credible or relevant he considered them to be. It's certainly tedious but it's not just bloat.

In my experience this level of detail is more common in Commonwealth countries than in the U.S.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

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On Tue, 06 Jun 2023 21:22:56 -0700, Bernie Cosell wrote:

For comparison, War and Peace only runs to about 500 pages. The
complete works of Sherlock Holmes about 450.

The late, much misse P. J. O'Rourke noted that the US constitution - how
to run a continent - ran to 20 pages while his cars manual was over 200
and he still couldn't find the rear wiper.

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On Thu, 08 Jun 2023 07:48:57 -0700, John Levine wrote:

According to Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>:

Really? *736*pages*?

You can read it here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/650718356/Ben-Roberts-Smith-VC-MG-

defamation-action-full-judgement

The judge went through all of the charges, all of the evidence, and all
of the witnesses, describing each and how credible or relevant he
considered them to be. It's certainly tedious but it's not just bloat.

In my experience this level of detail is more common in Commonwealth countries than in the U.S.

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

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On 6/8/2023 2:13 PM, Jethro_uk wrote:

The judge went through all of the charges, all of the evidence, and all
of the witnesses, describing each and how credible or relevant he
considered them to be. It's certainly tedious but it's not just bloat.

In my experience this level of detail is more common in Commonwealth
countries than in the U.S.

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

No, at least not in the US. Most lawyering is paid by the hour. The
Model Rules of Professional Conduct (basically the lawyers' code of
ethics) requires fair dealing with the client, so you're not supposed to
do makework to pad your hours. That would include writing documents that
aren't needed or that are unnecessarily long.

But a judge typically wants to get everything down on paper to justify
his decision, so as not to leave any loopholes for the losing side to
use for an appeal.


--
I do so have a memory. It's backed up on DVD... somewhere...

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"Jethro_uk" wrote in message news:u5t0jb$1j81q$19@dont-email.me...

On Thu, 08 Jun 2023 07:48:57 -0700, John Levine wrote:

According to Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>:

Really? *736*pages*?

You can read it here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/650718356/Ben-Roberts-Smith-VC-MG- >defamation-action-full-judgement

The judge went through all of the charges, all of the evidence, and all
of the witnesses, describing each and how credible or relevant he
considered them to be. It's certainly tedious but it's not just bloat.

In my experience this level of detail is more common in Commonwealth
countries than in the U.S.

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

Effectively yes, since they are often paid by the hour - but in this case,
the law clerks who helped the judge with the opinion are probably salaried.

--

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Jethro_uk <jethro_uk@hotmailbin.com> wrote:

John Levine wrote:

According to Bernie Cosell <bernie@fantasyfarm.com>:

Really? *736*pages*?

You can read it here:

https://www.scribd.com/document/650718356/Ben-Roberts-Smith-VC-MG-

defamation-action-full-judgement

The judge went through all of the charges, all of the evidence,
and all of the witnesses, describing each and how credible or
relevant he considered them to be. It's certainly tedious but
it's not just bloat.

In my experience this level of detail is more common in
Commonwealth countries than in the U.S.

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.


--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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On 09/06/2023 07:17, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use Legal
instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for legal documents
to compensate?

--

Jeff

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Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use
Legal instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for legal
documents to compensate?

We switched over to letter size (8.5 X 11) a good number of years ago.
Plus, computers have given us the opportunity to draft documents in 20
point type.


--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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In misc.legal.moderated, on Fri, 9 Jun 2023 08:15:55 -0700 (PDT), Jeff
Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/06/2023 07:17, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use Legal
instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for legal documents
to compensate?

At least in NYS and 45 years ago, they had switched mostly to Letter
size. I have no idaa about other states.

And my lawyer uses 44 point type. He gets about 2 words per line.

--
I think you can tell, but just to be sure:
I am not a lawyer.

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On Fri, 09 Jun 2023 16:26:32 -0700, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use Legal
instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for legal documents
to compensate?

We switched over to letter size (8.5 X 11) a good number of years ago.
Plus, computers have given us the opportunity to draft documents in 20
point type.

Now just use the correct date format, and you'll be set.

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On 10/06/2023 00:26, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use
Legal instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for legal
documents to compensate?

We switched over to letter size (8.5 X 11) a good number of years ago.
Plus, computers have given us the opportunity to draft documents in 20
point type.

I'd looked at
<https://pdf.wondershare.com/business/legal-paper-size.html> as that was up-to-date. I appears, however, that the information there is not
correct, as it states that legal size is obligatory.

--

Jeff

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On 10/06/2023 05:15, micky wrote:

In misc.legal.moderated, on Fri, 9 Jun 2023 08:15:55 -0700 (PDT), Jeff
Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 09/06/2023 07:17, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use Legal
instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for legal documents
to compensate?

At least in NYS and 45 years ago, they had switched mostly to Letter
size. I have no idaa about other states.

And my lawyer uses 44 point type. He gets about 2 words per line.

Well, at least the detail isn't in "small print"...

--

Jeff

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Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote in
news:u61njm$29pb7$1@dont-email.me:

On 10/06/2023 00:26, Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Jeff Layman <Jeff@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Stuart O. Bronstein wrote:

Just a thought, but are lawyers paid by the word ?

I charge by the page.

Seems to me US lawyers have been missing out by having to use
Legal instead of Letter size. Or is the font size bigger for
legal documents to compensate?

We switched over to letter size (8.5 X 11) a good number of years
ago. Plus, computers have given us the opportunity to draft
documents in 20 point type.

I'd looked at
<https://pdf.wondershare.com/business/legal-paper-size.html> as
that was up-to-date. I appears, however, that the information
there is not correct, as it states that legal size is obligatory.

That may change based on the state you are in.

--
Stu
http://DownToEarthLawyer.com

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