• the non-computerate

    From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to Mayayana on Thu Sep 13 09:30:22 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    Mayayana wrote (in a thread in the '7 'group that started out about
    Adobe):

    I think that when you get adept with computers
    it's easy to forget how much work that took. It
    took me months to get the hang of image editing.
    (That was the original thread subject. This is wider.)
    Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's
    dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory.
    For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't
    have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer
    is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more
    than they have to.

    I think we all need to be reminded of that from time to time: that there
    are people who're not interested in computing any more than necessary -
    or, within computing, aren't interested in some aspect more than they
    need to be: image editing, word processing, programming (including web,
    script, and other things, not just C and the like).

    What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're just
    not _interested_, either in computing as a whole, or the specific aspect
    we are. I see the same attitude in myself towards food preparation: I
    _know_ I could save money, be healthier, and have extra wonderful
    experiences if I were to just ... - I'm just _not interested_, and will
    never be. Mayayana's last sentence, though only 11 words, is a big one.

    The same probably applies to many if not all aspects of life: car
    maintenance; gardening; DIY generally; language(s); grammar. We could
    probably all save money, avoid being ripped off, and so on by learning
    more about many things. But we _choose_ not to. And trying, beyond a
    point, to interest us, is just likely to make us grumpy - because we
    know we are in the wrong (though that's arguable), and someone who
    "knows" they are in the wrong is one of the grumpiest.

    I say trying _beyond a point_ is unproductive: of course, it is
    intensely rewarding when someone "sees the light", as in "now I see what
    you're getting at" - which is why we all try (-:. But it's best to be
    able to see when to give up! (And I'm probably as bad as any, at not
    seeing.)
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    Eve had an Apple, Adam had a Wang...
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Java Jive@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 13 12:50:29 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    On 13/09/2018 09:30, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

    Mayayana wrote (in a thread in the '7 'group that started out about Adobe): >>
    I think that when you get adept with computers
    it's easy to forget how much work that took. It
    took me months to get the hang of image editing.
    (That was the original thread subject. This is wider.)
    Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's
    dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory.
    For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't
    have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer
    is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more
    than they have to.

    I think we all need to be reminded of that from time to time: that there
    are people who're not interested in computing any more than necessary -
    or, within computing, aren't interested in some aspect more than they
    need to be: image editing, word processing, programming (including web, script, and other things, not just C and the like).

    Exactly, to *most* people outside of interest groups such as this, a
    computer is a *tool*, for doing some type of work or pursuing some type
    of interest, and they aren't interested in the intricate workings of the
    tool any more than I am interested in the metallurgy of the face of the
    hammer I use to drive in a nail, fascinating though that subject might
    be to a materials scientist. The fact that computers are general
    purpose tools that can do so much more than the one or two things that
    most people use them for is neither here nor there, what is important to
    them is getting done whatever job that the computer is used as a tool to
    do, preferably with the least hassle and most convenience.
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Wolf K@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 13 09:02:48 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    On 2018-09-13 04:30, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    [...]

    What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're just
    not _interested_
    [...]


    ... and people who have different interests than you aren't thick, either.

    --
    Wolf K
    kirkwood40.blogspot.com
    Complexity is not a condition to be tamed, but a lesson to be learned.
    (James Bridley, 2018)
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 13 08:06:25 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> on Thu, 13 Sep 2018
    09:30:22 +0100 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
    Mayayana wrote (in a thread in the '7 'group that started out about
    Adobe):

    I think that when you get adept with computers
    it's easy to forget how much work that took. It
    took me months to get the hang of image editing.
    (That was the original thread subject. This is wider.)
    Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's
    dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory.
    For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't
    have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer
    is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more
    than they have to.

    I think we all need to be reminded of that from time to time: that there
    are people who're not interested in computing any more than necessary -
    or, within computing, aren't interested in some aspect more than they
    need to be: image editing, word processing, programming (including web, >script, and other things, not just C and the like).

    What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're just
    not _interested_, either in computing as a whole, or the specific aspect
    we are. I see the same attitude in myself towards food preparation: I
    _know_ I could save money, be healthier, and have extra wonderful
    experiences if I were to just ... - I'm just _not interested_, and will
    never be. Mayayana's last sentence, though only 11 words, is a big one.

    The same probably applies to many if not all aspects of life: car >maintenance; gardening; DIY generally; language(s); grammar. We could >probably all save money, avoid being ripped off, and so on by learning
    more about many things. But we _choose_ not to. And trying, beyond a
    point, to interest us, is just likely to make us grumpy - because we
    know we are in the wrong (though that's arguable), and someone who
    "knows" they are in the wrong is one of the grumpiest.

    I say trying _beyond a point_ is unproductive: of course, it is
    intensely rewarding when someone "sees the light", as in "now I see what >you're getting at" - which is why we all try (-:. But it's best to be
    able to see when to give up! (And I'm probably as bad as any, at not
    seeing.)

    Amen and amen.

    My wife uses the expression "I only have so many spoons". I can
    spend my spoons on learning the intricacies of a subject (car repair,
    computer operating system programming, the cultural and political
    implications of social media in southwest Asia theocracies) or I can
    spend them on something I've an interested in (Aristotle, the impact
    of the transition from Gagothic to Cyrillic alphabets and the spread
    of Slavonic literacy into 12 century Novgorod, and scale models of
    Norman construction in 'the west'{Not "doll houses" B-) } )

    I'm not saying the {subject} is unimportant, just that it is unimportant to me.

    tschus
    pyotr

    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Big Al@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 13 11:56:49 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    On 09/13/2018 04:30 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    Mayayana wrote (in a thread in the '7 'group that started out about Adobe):

      I think that when you get adept with computers
    it's easy to forget how much work that took. It
    took me months to get the hang of image editing.
    (That was the original thread subject. This is wider.)
    Now it seems simple, but for someone new it's
    dozens of menu items that are not self-explanatory.
    For people who aren't linear thinkers and don't
    have a touch of OCD, doing anything on a computer
    is pure tedium. They don't want to know any more
    than they have to.

    I think we all need to be reminded of that from time to time: that there
    are people who're not interested in computing any more than necessary -
    or, within computing, aren't interested in some aspect more than they
    need to be: image editing, word processing, programming (including web, script, and other things, not just C and the like).

    What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're just
    not _interested_, either in computing as a whole, or the specific aspect
    we are. I see the same attitude in myself towards food preparation: I
    _know_ I could save money, be healthier, and have extra wonderful
    experiences if I were to just ... - I'm just _not interested_, and will
    never be. Mayayana's last sentence, though only 11 words, is a big one.

    The same probably applies to many if not all aspects of life: car maintenance; gardening; DIY generally; language(s); grammar. We could probably all save money, avoid being ripped off, and so on by learning
    more about many things. But we _choose_ not to. And trying, beyond a
    point, to interest us, is just likely to make us grumpy - because we
    know we are in the wrong (though that's arguable), and someone who
    "knows" they are in the wrong is one of the grumpiest.

    I say trying _beyond a point_ is unproductive: of course, it is
    intensely rewarding when someone "sees the light", as in "now I see what you're getting at" - which is why we all try (-:. But it's best to be
    able to see when to give up! (And I'm probably as bad as any, at not
    seeing.)

    Lack of repeated use can also change things. I used to know fluidly a
    4GL programming language. Spent 10-15 years doing it and was dang good.
    After years retired, I have little hope I could redo it. I could
    possibly read it, but engineer it or improve on it, NO.
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to pyotr filipivich on Thu Sep 13 11:30:10 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    "pyotr filipivich" <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote

    | the impact
    | of the transition from Gagothic to Cyrillic alphabets and the spread
    | of Slavonic literacy into 12 century Novgorod

    You took the words right out of my mouth. Anyone
    would have to be nuts not to find that interesting.
    We should start a discussion group at your house.
    John can bring some of his snack ramen and cocoa
    puffs.
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to G6JPG-255@255soft.uk on Thu Sep 13 11:58:28 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> wrote

    | What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're just
    | not _interested_

    I think it's not an accident that this comes up
    in computer groups. There are a lot of poorly
    socialized people who don't adapt well in general
    but who do well with computers. That's basically
    the profile of the nerd. Nerds aren't mocked because
    they like science but because they don't connect
    well socially and are confident that anything but
    science is both inferior and irrelevant. Jocks
    are idiots. Humanities people are dreamers. Religious
    people are misled cowards. Artists are just plain nuts.
    Bankers are a necessary evil. It's a form of mono-
    paradigmatic ignorance, like a fundamentalist
    preacher. Except the fundamentalist preacher is
    relatively openminded. He can at least make sense
    of the outlook of the nerd. The nerd will reject the
    preacher as simply an idiot.

    There was a great scene in A Beautiful Mind where
    the physicist is on a date and, lacking any kind of
    social skills, he decides to tell his date that while
    she will probably slap him and has every right to
    do so, what he really wants is to fuck her. She's
    relieved, despite his awkward presentation, and
    they end up getting married. I found the scene very
    touching. It was an unsocialized nerd being open
    to life with courage, even though he was completely
    out of his element.
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to mayayana@invalid.nospam on Thu Sep 13 19:31:47 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    In message <pne1g4$5c6$1@dont-email.me>, Mayayana
    <mayayana@invalid.nospam> writes:
    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> wrote

    | What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're just
    | not _interested_

    I think it's not an accident that this comes up
    in computer groups. There are a lot of poorly
    socialized people who don't adapt well in general
    but who do well with computers. That's basically
    the profile of the nerd. Nerds aren't mocked because
    they like science but because they don't connect
    well socially and are confident that anything but
    science is both inferior and irrelevant.

    I'm not sure I'd agree with that entirely. _Some_ people with an
    overpowering interest - not just in science - don't connect well
    socially, but not all.

    Jocks
    are idiots. Humanities people are dreamers. Religious
    people are misled cowards. Artists are just plain nuts.
    Bankers are a necessary evil.

    Anyone left you haven't insulted (-:?

    It's a form of mono-
    paradigmatic ignorance, like a fundamentalist
    preacher. Except the fundamentalist preacher is
    relatively openminded. He can at least make sense
    of the outlook of the nerd. The nerd will reject the
    preacher as simply an idiot.

    This nerd doesn't. Many preachers - or religious people in general - are
    highly intelligent; they just have the faith "gene" (for want of a
    better word; it isn't genetic) that some of us don't. Faith isn't a
    matter of scientific proof, it's a whole different way of thinking. (Of
    course _some_ priests are idiots - as are some nerds, and some people
    from any group. And some are charlatans, though I suspect fewer - and/or
    to a lesser extent - than TV dramas would have us believe.)

    There was a great scene in A Beautiful Mind where
    the physicist is on a date and, lacking any kind of
    social skills, he decides to tell his date that while
    she will probably slap him and has every right to
    do so, what he really wants is to fuck her. She's
    relieved, despite his awkward presentation, and
    they end up getting married. I found the scene very
    touching. It was an unsocialized nerd being open
    to life with courage, even though he was completely
    out of his element.

    He _did_ have a beautiful mind, though. Patron saint of nerds - though
    far more intelligent than most of us (science or arts [for the sake of
    brevity - I don't accept that dichotomy]).

    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    You can be tough without being rude - Nick Clegg, 2014 July
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to wolfmac@sympatico.ca on Thu Sep 13 19:24:15 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    In message <_dtmD.73541$Ac3.51427@fx45.iad>, Wolf K
    <wolfmac@sympatico.ca> writes:
    On 2018-09-13 04:30, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    [...]
    What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're
    just not _interested_
    [...]


    ... and people who have different interests than you aren't thick, either.

    Well rejoined, but I never said that. Actually, I had in mind someone
    when I was composing my post: he's a sheep-farmer, who lives in a very
    isolated (for the UK) spot in rural Northumberland; when we visit him,
    we always had to tell him - again! - how to use his TV boxes. Technology altogether just isn't his thing. But he's by no means thick; he runs his sheep-farming business, is a war veteran, has a shotgun licence, can
    drive, and has more knowledge of many aspects of his rougher life than
    I'd ever have. But no way he'd ever get on with a computer. (I once
    heard him mutter "city boy" about me - without any malice - when I
    displayed my ignorance of or incompetence at something that was so
    natural to him.) I consider him a good friend; I think we respect each
    other.

    [Sadly, he had a stroke about a year ago (lay on the floor for many
    hours until fortunately the people at the farm up the hill realised his curtains weren't open or shut when they'd have expected them to be, or something like that). He can now hardly speak, and can get agitated when
    he tries and someone doesn't understand what he's trying to say; he
    spent most of the year in various hospitals/care facilities. I think it
    says a lot for his intelligence that the authorities have seen fit to
    let him return to his isolated home (put Rivergreen Mill into Google
    Maps - that identifies the farm, he's in the old mill next to it).]

    I was considering mentioning him in my original post, but I thought it
    was already too long.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    You can be tough without being rude - Nick Clegg, 2014 July
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 13 12:25:22 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> on Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:30:10
    -0400 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
    "pyotr filipivich" <phamp@mindspring.com> wrote

    | the impact
    | of the transition from Gagothic to Cyrillic alphabets and the spread
    | of Slavonic literacy into 12 century Novgorod

    You took the words right out of my mouth. Anyone
    would have to be nuts not to find that interesting.
    We should start a discussion group at your house.
    John can bring some of his snack ramen and cocoa
    puffs.


    Let me check with the wife.
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 13 12:22:50 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    Big Al <Big_Al@invalid.com> on Thu, 13 Sep 2018 11:56:49 -0400 typed
    in alt.windows7.general the following:

    I say trying _beyond a point_ is unproductive: of course, it is
    intensely rewarding when someone "sees the light", as in "now I see what
    you're getting at" - which is why we all try (-:. But it's best to be
    able to see when to give up! (And I'm probably as bad as any, at not
    seeing.)

    Lack of repeated use can also change things. I used to know fluidly a
    4GL programming language. Spent 10-15 years doing it and was dang good.
    After years retired, I have little hope I could redo it. I could
    possibly read it, but engineer it or improve on it, NO.

    I can read GD&T, but not sure I can "write" it. {"Geometric
    Dimension and Tolerance" : machinist / design speak for "how to set
    the values of "good" to make sure the parts are "good"}
    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to G6JPG-255@255soft.uk on Thu Sep 13 21:22:44 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> wrote

    | > Jocks
    | >are idiots. Humanities people are dreamers. Religious
    | >people are misled cowards. Artists are just plain nuts.
    | >Bankers are a necessary evil.
    |
    | Anyone left you haven't insulted (-:?
    |

    Maybe it wasn't clear. That was a synopsis
    of the nerd point of view.
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Wolf K@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 14 09:14:55 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    On 2018-09-13 14:24, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    In message <_dtmD.73541$Ac3.51427@fx45.iad>, Wolf K
    <wolfmac@sympatico.ca> writes:
    On 2018-09-13 04:30, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    [...]
     What we need to remember is *these people are not thick*: they're
    just  not _interested_
    [...]


    ... and people who have different interests than you aren't thick,
    either.

    Well rejoined, but I never said that. [...]

    Just unpacked what your comment means, for those who can't parse
    intensions. :-)



    --
    Wolf K
    kirkwood40.blogspot.com
    Complexity is not a condition to be tamed, but a lesson to be learned.
    (James Bridley, 2018)
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From pyotr filipivich@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 14 08:04:24 2018
    XPost: alt.windows7.general, microsoft.public.windowsxp.general

    "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam> on Thu, 13 Sep 2018 21:22:44
    -0400 typed in alt.windows7.general the following:
    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG-255@255soft.uk> wrote

    | > Jocks
    | >are idiots. Humanities people are dreamers. Religious
    | >people are misled cowards. Artists are just plain nuts.
    | >Bankers are a necessary evil.
    |
    | Anyone left you haven't insulted (-:?
    |

    Maybe it wasn't clear. That was a synopsis
    of the nerd point of view.

    Bingo. And not just the computer nerds. All {$Subject} nerds
    have a perception of Those People(tm) who are so Strange.

    Sort of like how the Dutch tell "Belgian Dentists" stories.


    tschus
    pyotr

    --
    pyotr filipivich
    Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From James Davis@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 14 23:22:39 2018
    That's all well and good, but what does it have to do with Windows 98?

    All philosophers, please get off this party line.--Unless you want to philosophize about Windows 98.
    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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