• It might be time to stop using antivirus - use a sandbox instead

    From Anonymous Remailer (austria)@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 6 03:40:01 2021
    Freebie Sandboxes

    https://sandboxie.en.softonic.com/

    http://www.toolwiz.com/lead/toolwiz_time_freeze/

    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/antivirus-is-bad/

    Update your software and OS regularly instead, practice skeptical computing.

    Former Firefox developer Robert O'Callahan, now a free agent and safe
    from the PR tentacles of his corporate overlord, says that antivirus
    software is terrible, AV vendors are terrible, and that you should
    uninstall your antivirus software immediately—unless you use Microsoft's Windows Defender, which is apparently okay.

    A couple of months back, Justin Schuh, Google Chrome's security chief,
    and indeed one of the world's top infosec bods, said that antivirus
    software is "my single biggest impediment to shipping a secure browser." Further down the thread he explains that meddling AV software delayed
    Win32 Flash sandboxing "for over a year" and that further sandboxing
    efforts are still on hold due to AV. The man-in-the-middle nature of
    antivirus also causes a stream of TLS (transport layer security) errors,
    says Schuh, which in turn breaks some elements of HTTPS/HSTS.

    These are just two recent instances of browser makers being increasingly
    upset with antivirus software. Back in 2012, Nicholas Nethercote,
    another Mozillian working on Firefox's MemShrink project said that
    "McAfee is killing us." In that case, Nethercote was trying to reduce
    the memory footprint of Firefox, and found that gnarly browser add-ons
    like McAfee were consuming a huge amount of memory, amongst other
    things. If you venture off-piste into the browser mailing lists, anti- antivirus sentiment has bubbled away just below the surface for a very
    long time.

    The problem, from the perspective of the browser makers, is that
    antivirus software is incredibly invasive. Antivirus, in an attempt to
    catch viruses before they can infect your system, forcibly hooks itself
    into other pieces of software on your computer, such as your browser,
    word processor, or even the OS kernel. O'Callahan gives one particularly egregious example: "Back when we first made sure ASLR was working for
    Firefox on Windows, many AV vendors broke it by injecting their own ASLR-disabled DLLs into our processes." ASLR, or address-space layout randomisation, is one of the better protections against buffer overflow exploits.

    Furthermore, because of the aforementioned knotweed-style rhizomes of
    antivirus programs, the AV software itself presents a very large attack surface. As in, without AV installed, a hacker might have to find a vulnerability in the browser or operating system—but if there's AV
    present, the hacker can also look for a vulnerability there. This
    wouldn't necessarily be a problem if AV makers made secure software, but
    for the most part they don't (except for Windows Defender, because
    Microsoft is "generally competent," according to O'Callahan).

    Back in June last year, Google's Project Zero found 25 high-severity
    bugs in Symantec/Norton security products. "These vulnerabilities are as
    bad as it gets," said Tavis Ormandy, a Project Zero researcher. "They
    don’t require any user interaction, they affect the default
    configuration, and the software runs at the highest privilege levels
    possible. In certain cases on Windows, vulnerable code is even loaded
    into the kernel, resulting in remote kernel memory corruption." Over the
    past five years, Ormandy has found similar vulnerabilities in security
    software from Kaspersky, McAfee, Eset, Comodo, Trend Micro, and others.

    All this isn't to say that you (or your parents) shouldn't use antivirus software, but you should certainly be aware that using antivirus
    software doesn't necessarily make your computer any more secure. In some
    cases, AV might make your computer less secure, and cause a deleterious
    effect on system performance—and, if you believe the browser makers, the continuing popularity of AV software might have a gnarly knock-on effect
    on other developers, too.

    The nail in the coffin, according to O'Callahan, is that software
    vendors rarely speak out about antivirus issues "because they need
    cooperation from the AV vendors." He then links to a mailing list thread
    in 2012, where he suggests keeping a list of the AV software that
    interferes with Firefox. Later in the thread, Mozilla PR swoops in and
    tells him to knock it off.

    Antivirus software is so ingrained with Windows users, and synonymous
    with the concept of "good security," that software makers have their
    hands tied. "When your product crashes on startup due to AV
    interference, users blame your product, not AV," O'Callahan says. "Worse
    still, if they make your product incredibly slow and bloated, users just
    think that's how your product is ... You can't tell users to turn off AV software because if anything bad were to happen that the AV software
    might have prevented, you'll catch the blame."

    As always, irrespective of whether you decide to use AV, regularly
    updating your OS and software is one of the best ways to keep your
    computer safe. This also means that you should stop using Windows 7 or 8
    and update to Windows 10.

    When it comes to keeping your personal data safe, the problem is a
    little more complex: all of the sandboxing and antimalware software in
    the world won't save you from a well-executed phishing attack, or if a
    database that contains your details is breached. For that, you should
    use unique passwords, a physical security key where possible, and
    generally be very wary of offering up any kind of personally
    identifiable data.

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  • From J. P. Gilliver (John)@21:1/5 to mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at on Fri Aug 6 04:36:14 2021
    On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 03:40:01, "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> wrote (my responses usually follow
    points raised):
    []
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/antivirus-is-bad/ ................................................^^^^
    []
    He's at it again.
    --
    J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

    "Bother,"saidPoohwhenhisspacebarrefusedtowork.

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  • From Mayayana@21:1/5 to G6JPG@255soft.uk on Fri Aug 6 07:52:19 2021
    "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote

    | On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 03:40:01, "Anonymous Remailer (austria)"
    | <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> wrote

    | He's at it again.

    Interesting. The last one was carl@MIT. This one was
    already in my block list. I don't know how long it's been
    there, or why. I only see your post. Maybe it's an army
    of Chinese spammers trying to get us to install their
    malware.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From R.Wieser@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 6 17:41:26 2021
    Mayayana,

    Interesting. The last one was carl@MIT.

    The two he send after that came from (two different) "remailer" newsservers. Its rather possible that Eternal September blocks those - and for good
    reason.

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser

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  • From Mr Pounder Esquire@21:1/5 to All on Fri Aug 6 19:58:02 2021
    J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 03:40:01, "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> wrote (my responses usually follow
    points raised):
    []
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/antivirus-is-bad/
    ................................................^^^^
    []
    He's at it again.

    +1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Paul@21:1/5 to R.Wieser on Fri Aug 6 14:44:24 2021
    R.Wieser wrote:
    Mayayana,

    Interesting. The last one was carl@MIT.

    The two he send after that came from (two different) "remailer" newsservers. Its rather possible that Eternal September blocks those - and for good reason.

    Regards,
    Rudy Wieser



    Sandboxie. Process isolation with kernel hooks.
    May 23rd, 2011

    https://web.archive.org/web/20130429072246/http://vallejo.cc/48

    "Sandboxie is a sandbox that performs a process isolation. Its main features:
    - Access control to kernel resources by direct hooks on kernel objects.
    - Some ssdt and shadow ssdt hooks to control window messages.
    - Some kernel registered callbacks to be notified of process creating, images loaded, …

    In this article I will speak about sandoxie design and I will perform
    a analysis from a security point of view."

    ...

    "KeBugCheck is called from SbieDrv so it is only a non dangerous DoS
    (we can cause it from a sandboxed process), but we can see that a
    simple fuzzing causes a crash, and this fact makes me suspicious
    of Sandboxie robusticity."

    Summary: No security method or scheme is perfect.

    Don't be too enamored of perfection, and you
    won't be disappointed when you're tipped over.

    If a nation state wants you to be tipped over,
    you're tipped over.

    If a nation state wants to scan your device, they'll
    get Apple to do it :-)

    Paul

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  • From Anonymous Remailer (austria)@21:1/5 to you on Fri Aug 6 23:56:01 2021
    On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 19:58:02 +0100, you wrote:

    J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
    On Fri, 6 Aug 2021 at 03:40:01, "Anonymous Remailer (austria)" <mixmaster@remailer.privacy.at> wrote (my responses usually follow
    points raised):
    []
    https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/01/antivirus-is-bad/
    ................................................^^^^
    []
    He's at it again.


    +1

    Thank you for your vote of confidence.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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