I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast , Windows Defender
and Windows firewall.

Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Ram 12.0 GB
System type : 64-bit operating system

I also have

I have a Dell Optiplex 780 Tower, with Windows 7 Professional,
SP1, with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast , Windows Defender
and Windows firewall.

Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
System type : 64-bit operating system

and (external hard drives)

(8500)
Seagate Desktop HDD ST6000DM001 6TB
128MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Hard Drive

(780)
Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5"
Internal Hard Drive

This concerns the 8500; I had walked away
from the computer for some time which I have
done previously and I usually put it on a
scan when I do but this time when I came
back the screen was black.

I thought at first it was a dead battery in
my mouse but after I installed a fresh battery
still nothing. I tried calling up the Task Mgr
on the keyboard and still nothing.

So I held the power button until it cycled off
and then powered it off and waited 45 seconds
then back on and of course the abnormal shutdown
message appeared and I selected start normally.

Everything seems OK but I'm just wondering why
did it get hung up like that? It's never happened
before?

Thanks,
Robert

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/15/2022 7:24 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast , Windows Defender
and Windows firewall.

Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Ram 12.0 GB
System type : 64-bit operating system

I also have

I have a Dell Optiplex 780 Tower,  with Windows 7 Professional,
SP1, with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast , Windows Defender
and Windows firewall.

Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
System type : 64-bit operating system

and (external hard drives)

(8500)
Seagate Desktop HDD ST6000DM001 6TB
128MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Hard Drive

(780)
Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5"
Internal Hard Drive

This concerns the 8500; I had walked away
from the computer for some time which I have
done previously and I usually put it on a
scan when I do but this time when I came
back the screen was black.

I thought at first it was a dead battery in
my mouse but after I installed a fresh battery
still nothing. I tried calling up the Task Mgr
on the keyboard and still nothing.

So I held the power button until it cycled off
and then powered it off and waited 45 seconds
then back on and of course the abnormal shutdown
message appeared and I selected start normally.

Everything seems OK but I'm just wondering why
did it get hung up like that? It's never happened
before?

Thanks,
Robert

Your browser used up all the RAM on the machine.

Don't leave a browser running, when you walk away
from the computer.

That's what happened to me yesterday. Left it running.

This is a relatively new phenomenon, and my guess is
it is related to advertising "views" fraud. By reloading
the web page again and again, they can pretend the user
is seeing "fresh" advertisements.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 15.01.22 13:24, Robert in CA wrote:

I have a Dell XPS 8500, with Windows 7 Professional, SP1,
with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast , Windows Defender
and Windows firewall.

Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Ram 12.0 GB
System type : 64-bit operating system

I also have

I have a Dell Optiplex 780 Tower, with Windows 7 Professional,
SP1, with Spywareblaster, Malwarebytes, Avast , Windows Defender
and Windows firewall.

Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
System type : 64-bit operating system

and (external hard drives)

(8500)
Seagate Desktop HDD ST6000DM001 6TB
128MB Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal
Hard Drive

(780)
Seagate Desktop HDD ST2000DM001 2TB 64MB
Cache SATA 6.0Gb/s 3.5"
Internal Hard Drive

This concerns the 8500; I had walked away
from the computer for some time which I have
done previously and I usually put it on a
scan when I do but this time when I came
back the screen was black.

I thought at first it was a dead battery in
my mouse but after I installed a fresh battery
still nothing. I tried calling up the Task Mgr
on the keyboard and still nothing.

So I held the power button until it cycled off
and then powered it off and waited 45 seconds
then back on and of course the abnormal shutdown
message appeared and I selected start normally.

Everything seems OK but I'm just wondering why
did it get hung up like that? It's never happened
before?

Thanks,
Robert

Dont run more than 1 scanner, they interfere with their co-scanners.
Avast ran down my XPpro 2.8ghz,1GB singlecore to zero usability,
so I removed all scanners.
Apparently XP is not as much a target for malware anymore.
Still running XP, installed at 30th june 2004.
Only had a failed powersupply, on/off switch and sound card.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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If I close FF and don't run scans would that be OK or should
I just power it off?

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/15/2022 6:26 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

If I close FF and don't run scans would that be OK or should
I just power it off?

Thanks,
Robert

I would just close FF and monitor the situation.

See if the machine then runs smoother, doing whatever
you want it to do.

I've had that runaway behavior on browsers a couple of
times, and I really don't expect the browser developers
to fix it either. In one case, the about:memory (the browser
measures memory usage) said one page was using squat,
when Task Manager showed about 3GB of RAM tied up. The browser
doesn't necessarily even know it is happening. This means
part of the usage could be considered a "leak", since the
browser is apparently claiming it can't see the memory as "used".

In another case, yes, about:memory could see the unexpectedly
large memory usage.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I did try doing that and just closed FF and worked just fine.

Hmmmmm, sounds like the developers didn't think this one
out too well.

In passing, an update about the recent outage I had and lost the
computer speakers; They have a temporary power line going over
my fence and have dug a trench for it with yellow caution tape and
have marked all the lines etc with red and orange flags and
white/yellow spray paint. They're suppose to come back next week
and finish the job and then I'll be back to normal. In the meantime I
can't go on that side.

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/16/2022 6:14 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I did try doing that and just closed FF and worked just fine.

Hmmmmm, sounds like the developers didn't think this one
out too well.

In passing, an update about the recent outage I had and lost the
computer speakers; They have a temporary power line going over
my fence and have dug a trench for it with yellow caution tape and
have marked all the lines etc with red and orange flags and
white/yellow spray paint. They're suppose to come back next week
and finish the job and then I'll be back to normal. In the meantime I
can't go on that side.

Thanks,
Robert

Now that sounds safe.

Will they warn you before dropping the power again ?

I would want the entry switch (on your panel) open
until they're finished, on the day they come back.
On the assumption the temporary connection must be
removed, and the final fix installed.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Yes, they'll warn me and I'll disconnect the computers
so nothing happens.

They're actually are going to relocate the entire panel
to another location away from the water faucet. Believe
it or not that's how it was originally installed it, right next
to the water faucet! I would of thought that would of been
some sort of code violation?

Anyways, they are going to move the location and put the
line in a pipe underground and then disconnect and reconnect
me. This also means they have to move my mini-split A/C
connections but they said it would be no problem.

I will be sure to check those before they go and of course
the computer.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Here's an update,..

The same guys came back a couple of days ago
and they told me that they haven't been stalling etc
but couldn't find a post. They said it would take 32
weeks to order one!

I thought, maybe you should of got the post before
you dug the trench? Jeeeeeez Frankly I don't understand
why a post would be such a big deal? Can't they just make
one? Or is 'post' some sort of term I'm not understanding?

So now they want to hook it up to my mobile home.
At first, I said no, but then thought my Klimaire is
hooked up like that. So I said OK, but asked them to run
it by the park manager because there may be some sort of
code violation.

So I still have the trench and power line coming over
the fence.


Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/27/2022 5:59 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

Here's an update,..

The same guys came back a couple of days ago
and they told me that they haven't been stalling etc
but couldn't find a post. They said it would take 32
weeks to order one!

I thought, maybe you should of got the post before
you dug the trench? Jeeeeeez Frankly I don't understand
why a post would be such a big deal? Can't they just make
one? Or is 'post' some sort of term I'm not understanding?

So now they want to hook it up to my mobile home.
At first, I said no, but then thought my Klimaire is
hooked up like that. So I said OK, but asked them to run
it by the park manager because there may be some sort of
code violation.

So I still have the trench and power line coming over
the fence.

Robert

In a power company operating facility, they have wooden
posts stacked up. They need to have those, in case of
storm damage that requires large numbers to be replaced.
They can snap off in bunches, depending on conditions.

*******

It's an article from 2012...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/11/10/sandy-utility-pole-shortage/1696385/

"Armies of flatbed trucks stacked with the 40-foot-long poles have been
clamoring across U.S. highways to reach the impacted areas and replace
utility poles knocked down or splintered by Sandy."

"The number of new utility poles sent to areas ravaged by Sandy
is on pace to match that delivered after Hurricanes Katrina and
Rita in 2005, he said. Suppliers dispatched about 100,000 poles
to the devastated Gulf Coast in the wake of those storms,
according to the North American Wood Pole Council."

That means there should be quite a few sitting in stock
in various places. In preparation for storm conditions.
You can't run a power company, without a stock of replacement
poles sitting in the yard. It means you buy some every year,
whether you need them or not.

If there's any shortage, it's trucks to haul them,
and the power company bucket truck, you can put a set of
bogey wheels off the back of the truck and have a pole
ride behind the truck, like the pole and wheels
were a trailer for the bucket truck. You don't need
a flatbed to haul just one of them.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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p.s. I forgot to add these guys aren't from Edison they are guys
the park manager hired. I checked with Edison when I lost power
because I thought it came from them but they confirmed I was
getting full power so I was the parks fault.

When I called the park manager he asked why I hadn't called him
first because he said my next door neighbor had called him about
it? I told him I thought Edison had caused it and they just had
confirmed I was getting full power so its the Park fault which he
confirmed. Yet I know him and I bet he asked the question because
he thought maybe I had something to do with it. Just like when the guy
wired my place for 220 instead of 110 and he tried to blame me. Luckily
there was another electrician behind him who confirmed I had nothing to
do with it.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/27/2022 2:28 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

p.s. I forgot to add these guys aren't from Edison they are guys
the park manager hired. I checked with Edison when I lost power
because I thought it came from them but they confirmed I was
getting full power so I was the parks fault.

When I called the park manager he asked why I hadn't called him
first because he said my next door neighbor had called him about
it? I told him I thought Edison had caused it and they just had
confirmed I was getting full power so its the Park fault which he
confirmed. Yet I know him and I bet he asked the question because
he thought maybe I had something to do with it. Just like when the guy
wired my place for 220 instead of 110 and he tried to blame me. Luckily there was another electrician behind him who confirmed I had nothing to
do with it.

Robert

Well, I don't know the details of how they do hookups where you are.

On houses here, they use a mast (metal conduit having great strength),
and the mast is embedded into the poured foundation wall as the
conduit enters the house.

But in your case, if you're in a trailer, you would not want any
roof penetration from setups like that, so you would need some
other mechanism to bring power into the house.

I can find a picture here, but this picture doesn't make sense to me.
I can't tell if this is a conventional mast or not.

https://www.pinterest.ca/pin/204702745534521369/

I think the reason for all this "elevation jazz" is to avoid
the effects of flooding, causing the flood water to be
electrified, if at all possible.

The pipe used for mast, you would think that would be
available at a building supply. I don't know of an "electrical supply mart" here. I had one when I was back East, which had a huge stock of
parts, and it was only supposed to sell to electricians. But
the clerk at the desk looked the other way, when he sold me
some goods. I was picking up some high temperature wire for
a floor lamp project, amongst other things. To replace the
existing high temperature wire.

If your power is coming in via a trench, there might be
a pedestal involved and some sort of "disconnect" in a
covered box. And that would be present so you would
have a mechanism to disconnect the house during major
electrical work. With a house mast scheme, there are
clamps you can remove, to disconnect service, but you
need linesman gloves and other goodies to do that.
There's no switch at mast level, for disconnect. You would
remove power on a mast, one wire at a time.

When I'm standing on the roof (a 1 in 16 roof), I can touch
the live mast wires if I want. They are not elevated above
roof level so much that they cannot be touched.

Where the mast penetrates my roof, the people doing the
torch-on membrane roof, they build a "box" out of layers
of membrane, to make a waterproof protection for the mast.
That was already present, when they did the job, and they
added layers on top of it.

But the roof on a mobile, is not something you want to be
messing with, because of all the stories I hear. While the
crew was at my place, they started two fires with their
torches :-/ And I had to run faster than fuck to feed water
up to them on the roof. I was in full sprint mode.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Oh I get it now,...

but what's with the deal of them asking to hook it up
on my mobile home? That has nothing to do with the
large posts in the link you gave and btw damn!

They could just as easily hook it back up as it is now
but they want to get it away from the water faucet as
far as possible. I think its that kind of post they are talking
about. Which is why I say why can they just make one?

I asked how are they going to secure it by cementing it it in
and they replied either that or just in the ground. I thought
these guys really haven't thought this through.

Here's a picture of the trench and in the background you
can see the power line they slung over the fence and two
red flags and yellow caution tape.

https://postimg.cc/7J66wB5p

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I should of added this picture. This is how its
setup and the square box is where the power
is connected.

https://postimg.cc/dkXgCbVv

In passing, I've noticed recently that before I get my
desktop the screen goes black. I haven't been quick
enough to get my camera to take a picture so maybe
next time I'll remember and have it ready but does that
mean my monitor is going? I don't remember it going
black like that before?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 1/27/2022 11:38 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I should of added this picture. This is how its
setup and the square box is where the power
is connected.

https://postimg.cc/dkXgCbVv

In passing, I've noticed recently that before I get my
desktop the screen goes black. I haven't been quick
enough to get my camera to take a picture so maybe
next time I'll remember and have it ready but does that
mean my monitor is going? I don't remember it going
black like that before?

Robert

Yeah, I just don't understand the logic of the power
connection method. I can't tell if they're trying to keep
it all in conduit or pipe, or going for a mast approach.

*******

Your video card could be doing a VPU reset, as a result
of a driver crash. Or, the OS has decided to "discover"
the video device and install a driver as the system
is coming up. On an OS like Windows XP, we could use
some setupapi.* file to check for date-stamped entries
regarding driver installation.

But on later OSes, the evidence is thinner and a bit of
a step backwards in regards to logging.

Device Manager occasionally has logging info in it too,
but it's been quite a while since entries in there were
indicating weird stuff was going on. Today, the log entries
are pretty benign and not helpful.

The OSes can also have health reports, but they may not
tell us what we need to know about drivers. And there is
Event Viewer. For example, you used to see a ton of
entries for the old ATI Catalyst driver, as it spewed out
the same errors every time it started. So that at least
shows a place to see some activity from driver software.
But it's still not easy to figure out.

When your monitor screen turns black, does the "status LED"
indicate the video card is sending sync signals, and the
black screen is just a black signal ? Or is the screen black,
because the status LED is indicating that no signal at all
is coming from the video card. In which case the OSD should
put up a dialog indicating a loss of signal. Usually between
the power/status LED color, and the presence or lack of OSD
messages, you can get some idea of whether it is a black screen
drawn on purpose, or it is the black color of a screen that
is not driven by any signal at all.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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As I understood it they are trying to separate the power
connection box away from the water outlet. Hence the
trench and they are suppose to lay a pipe the the power
line inside and it'll come up at the new location but they
say they can't find a post for it. If that means a simple pipe
or pvc they can mount the existing one on why can't they
do that? I don't understand why this is so difficult? Or as
they suggested mount it to my mobile home but again
that's probably not code. The Klimaire mini-split A/C is
one thing but the power box may be another.

Still regular homes are like that with the meter on the outside.

I just think they didn't think this through very well before starting.
It shouldn't take this long.

As far as the screen it doesn't do it every time but I just mentioned
it in case it does it again. I don't recall seeing any LED its just black
for a second or so and then the desktop appears like normal.
Very strange,...

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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It probably doesn't have to do with anything but
just now it took forever to get the 8500 to power up.
I mean it was being very stubborn and this I would say
was the worst it has been. Not good.

I never liked the power button on the 8500 its too iffy.
I would of preferred one like the 780 has. It always powers
on.

However it finally did (obviously)

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/3/2022 7:23 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

Here's the finished job. They forgot to hook my mini-split A/C
back up so they had to return the following day and then another
guy came to fill in the trench and put all the pavers back.

https://postimg.cc/vcxvt2pD

https://postimg.cc/v1bLMYD6

They did a pretty good job. You wouldn't believe the size of the trench
from my place to the junction box.

The 8500 was hard to power on again. This is beginning to bother me.
Is this a sign that the power supply is failing? It took well over 5
minutes to get it to power on. Yet at other times it comes right on but lately its getting harder and harder to power it on and I'm just wondering
if this is indicative of my power supply going bad?

What if I can't power it on some day at all? Then what?

Once running its fine.

Is there a way to change the power on switch on the 8500 for one like the
780 has or is that part of the power supply?

Thanks,
Robert

It's good to see they resolved the "post" issue, of finding
some component to finish the job.

*******

Your 8500 problem.

It could be power supply, motherboard, or front push button switch.

Take note of the behavior of the front power switch, whether it
is slow to respond, whether the movement is "normal".

It could be the motherboard. The motherboard may be trying
to send PS_ON# to the power supply, but the signal is
not swinging to the logic 0 state properly. This is a common
problem with computers. And it's not clear why this happens.

The control signal on the power supply, might need around
2mA of current to be sunk to ground. The logic chip on the
motherboard has 8mA drive. That would be a typical value
for a modern chip. But back around the year 2000 to 2003 or so,
the chip driving PS_ON# could sink 64mA. They were not
fooling around back then.

Today, the signal is not normally buffered any more, and
the 8mA drive comes from a pin on one of the larger chips.
Back around the year 2000, the chip driving the PS_ON# was
a separate 14 pin chip, like an F series TTL chip.

When you test an ATX PSU, you ground the PS_ON# signal
to cause the power supply fan to spin, and the main
rails to come on. But grounding the signal, that's
a "lot more drive" than an 8mA chip can provide. That
doesn't particularly prove anything. It can be used though,
to prove the ATX supply works.

Sometimes an ATX supply becomes "deaf" on PS_ON#. You can
connect a switch, flip the switch so PS_ON# is grounded,
and nothing happens. And that's an indication that the
PSU needs to be changed out.

*******

You can see a description here, of the switch used on the
8500. Since there may be several model years of 8500, this
switch may have been changed.

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8300-8500-8700-Power-Switch-Failure-and-Solution/td-p/7424349

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Here's the finished job. They forgot to hook my mini-split A/C
back up so they had to return the following day and then another
guy came to fill in the trench and put all the pavers back.

https://postimg.cc/vcxvt2pD

https://postimg.cc/v1bLMYD6

They did a pretty good job. You wouldn't believe the size of the trench
from my place to the junction box.

The 8500 was hard to power on again. This is beginning to bother me.
Is this a sign that the power supply is failing? It took well over 5
minutes to get it to power on. Yet at other times it comes right on but
lately its getting harder and harder to power it on and I'm just wondering
if this is indicative of my power supply going bad?

What if I can't power it on some day at all? Then what?

Once running its fine.

Is there a way to change the power on switch on the 8500 for one like the
780 has or is that part of the power supply?

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I re-read the instructions in the link you gave on how to
remove the front panel and top panel to access the switch
and think I can do it but unsure whether I can solder
and I would have to have a new switch on hand before
I would attempt to do that.

So what do I do in the meantime? Leave the 8500 on?
Use the sleep mode?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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It's a top push button actually, when I push it in,
it seems 'normal' I try not to force it down further
past the first 'click' when it should engage. I've tried
using a pencil with an eraser to hold it down without
slipping. It should engage immediately like the 780
but it doesn't.

https://postimg.cc/sM6PwpQm

Is there a way to test to see if the motherboard is bad?

Removal of the switch seems complicated, but if you
can guide me maybe I could do it but replace it with
what? and would I have to solder? I have never done
that. I do have a soldering gun though although I don't
know if its hot enough and I think I have some solder
around somewhere.

So what do you recommend I do?


Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 at 13:01:46, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

I re-read the instructions in the link you gave on how to
remove the front panel and top panel to access the switch
and think I can do it but unsure whether I can solder
and I would have to have a new switch on hand before
I would attempt to do that.

No, you shouldn't have to solder. Usually, the "on" switch has a flylead attached, which goes to a header on the motherboard - i. e. the lead
ends in a two-socket (0.1" spacing) connector which pushes onto two pins
on the mobo. Usually a several-pin header, to which other parts of the
front panel - the disc and power LEDs, and the reset button if there is
one - connect, each with their own two-pin connector. sometimes the
internal speaker, too, if there is one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nMVK6Lpge0 shows it very well. (As he
says, if you plug things in the wrong way round, it won't harm, just the
LEDs won't work [switches, of course, work either way round].)

That's for general motherboards; I don't know if Dells are different.
Won't hurt to look.

So what do I do in the meantime? Leave the 8500 on?

Should do no harm.

Use the sleep mode?

If the sleep mode is something you can reliably recover from even if the
switch is dodgy (e. g. by waggling the mouse), that should also be OK.

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

As I said, I don't know if Dells are different, but usually, the on
switch is only a "momentary" type - i. e. it connects its two wires only
while its actually pressed. (If yours feels like it has two positions -
i. e. push to turn on, push again to turn off, and feels like it remains further in when on, like a retractable ballpoint pen, then it _is_
different.)

If it _is_ the normal momentary type switch, then until you've got a replacement (probably raid a gash PC), then (other than leaving the PC
on), anything that shorts the two wires - scrape them to expose them and
use anything, like a key, screwdriver, or piece of cutlery - will start
the PC; after all, that's all the switch does.

It tells the motherboard to tell the power supply to start; obviously
the motherboard/PSU remember you've told them to. If one of those two is faulty, replacing the switch won't fix the problem. But it's an easy
thing to try (including just shorting the wires, rather than buying a replacement switch, unless you have one handy anyway).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

While no one was paying attention, weather reports became accurate and the
news became fiction. Did not see that coming. - Scott Adams, 2015

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I don't like the sleep mode. I tried it once with the 8200 and was
very iffy. I think I'll just leave it on.

I don't think it's like a ballpoint pen and in your second scenario
scrap what two wires? I'm not following you?

Do you mean to open it up and scrape the switch wires and then
short them ? But the only way to do that would have to be when
the computer is apart, correct? It doesn't sound safe to do.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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For now I'm leaving the 8500 on,
I don't trust it to power up until we've
discussed a plan and I maybe order a
switch or what you think best to do.

Is this what I need?

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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sorry forgot to add this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=enc%3A17V7qPcMfQK6l-fSi2Ae0zg47&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=115053589468&targetid=1599090335417&device=c&mktype=&googleloc=1014001&poi=&campaignid=
15275224983&mkgroupid=131097072938&rlsatarget=pla-1599090335417&abcId=9300697&merchantid=110763945&gclid=Cj0KCQiAuvOPBhDXARIsAKzLQ8EhKKUrmDZkUZiwoa9Sn7mToQguJB3B5DXUKs9NaHmAXFkafCsPaRkaAp4CEALw_wcB

Robert

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On Fri, 4 Feb 2022 at 22:11:40, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

I don't like the sleep mode. I tried it once with the 8200 and was
very iffy. I think I'll just leave it on.

OK.

I don't think it's like a ballpoint pen and in your second scenario
scrap what two wires? I'm not following you?

The two that go to the switch, though if the thing you posted a link to
- https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468 - is the assembly in question,
it looks like the two LEDs and the switch are enclosed in a module, and figuring out which are the two wires that go to the switch might not be
easy. It looks from that picture as if the motherboard connector _is_
the normal six-by-two-so-twelve-with-one-blanked-off connector, so you
might be able to figure out which two from the diagramme near the
beginning of the YouTube clip I posted a link to last time. I _think_
they (if yours is the same colouring as that one) are the yellow and one
of the blacks.

Do you mean to open it up and scrape the switch wires and then
short them ? But the only way to do that would have to be when
the computer is apart, correct? It doesn't sound safe to do.

Personal safety: as long as you don't open the power supply, there are
no voltages inside a PC over 12 volts, mostly lower. Watch out for
spinning fan blades though.

Safety of (avoiding damage to) the PC: lots of people who work on PCs do
so with them open; obviously you've got to be careful not to drop any
metal object inside that might short something. The only other possible
harm I can think of is if its cooling is designed only to work properly
with all covers in place; this isn't common, but I think I have heard of
such. Don't know for Dell. (I've worked on Dells that run fine with the
cover off, but can't say for all models.)

Only if you've definitely identified which two wires are the switch,
though.

Robert

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468?chn=ps&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&amdata=en c%3A17V7qPcMfQK6l-fSi2Ae0zg47&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0& mkcid=2&itemid=115053589468&targetid=1599090335417&device=c&mktype=&googl eloc=1014001&poi=&campaignid=15275224983&mkgroupid=131097072938&rlsatarge t=pla-1599090335417&abcId=9300697&merchantid=110763945&gclid=Cj0KCQiAuvOP BhDXARIsAKzLQ8EhKKUrmDZkUZiwoa9Sn7mToQguJB3B5DXUKs9NaHmAXFkafCsPaRkaAp4CE ALw_wcB

By the way, you can trim an ebay URL before the first "?", and it'll
usually still point to the same item - so for the above, for example, https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468 does.

$30.50 seems a lot for a switch, two LEDs, and a header - well, it is,
but I suppose it's a limited market (and you're paying for somebody's
time to assemble it). If it was me, I'd be trying to replace the switch
itself - one of the little square things in the third picture - and
feeding the wires through; but (a) you might after all have to solder
the wires to the switch part, and (b) you'd have to do the crimps at the motherboard connector end, which is fiddly if you haven't done it
before. (Switch, wire, and crimps ought to come out at less than a
dollar or two.) But only if you establish for sure that it's definitely
the switch that's at fault, rather than the motherboard or power supply.

Looking at that assembly, I presume there's a piece of (probably)
plastic built into your front panel, that mechanically connects what you
press on the outside of the case with the actual switch itself (one of
the little square things in the module - I suspect the silvery one). It wouldn't surprise me if said piece of plastic has just got knocked out
of place, or the module has become dislodged from where it should be; if
so, or if the shaped piece of plastic has got broken, then replacing the
module won't fix the problem.

I would definitely open up and see if it all seems mechanically sound -
even with the power off. I can't see for sure how that module is held to
the front panel - it might just be clips, but that little black tube
might contain a screw.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Politics: A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles.
- Oscar Wilde, quoted by Ron Bauerle 2015-7-24

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I mean no offense but Paul knows my system very well and I
would rather wait until I hear what he has to say.

Also I need to know what switch or whatever to buy and he generally
is able to go to right to what I need.

Also working with the PC open and running is something I've never done even
if allot of people do it and it seems allot of work with the switches and soldering
that I've never done before. This is beyond me.

However, I can open it up and see if anything has been dislodged or
broken. That I can do and is a good first step.

I did power it off finally last night and was again difficult to power on.
So I'll leave the computer on the rest of today and tonight and then power
it off and open it up.

p.s. thanks for the tip about the eBay url, I didn't know that.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Please give me your recommendation on what I should do?

I can't keep going on with the 8500 powering up like this.
Someday it won't power on at all. I do have the new PSU's
that we bought for both computers but that would be a bear
to do and if its just the switch couldn't I just replace that but
I need your assistance to order one or a different one maybe
from Newegg?

As I've said, I would like one like the 780 has if possible.

The 8500 runs fine once its powered on.

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/5/2022 4:19 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I mean no offense but Paul knows my system very well and I
would rather wait until I hear what he has to say.

Also I need to know what switch or whatever to buy and he generally
is able to go to right to what I need.

Also working with the PC open and running is something I've never done even if allot of people do it and it seems allot of work with the switches and soldering
that I've never done before. This is beyond me.

However, I can open it up and see if anything has been dislodged or
broken. That I can do and is a good first step.

I did power it off finally last night and was again difficult to power on.
So I'll leave the computer on the rest of today and tonight and then power
it off and open it up.

p.s. thanks for the tip about the eBay url, I didn't know that.

Robert

You can wire a switch in parallel with the existing switch.

This assume the switch is not failing "short circuit"
and is instead failing open.

The switch type needed is SPST Normally Open.
When the button is not depressed, an Ohm meter
indicates the two switch contacts are an open circuit.
When you push the plunger, the knife in the diagram
touches the contact. The two items "X" are then shorted
together, which is the Logic 0 desired.

/ Normally Open
X--------/ +-------+
|
|
|
X-------------------+

You can wire a second switch of the Normally Open type,
in parallel with the original switch. This works, as
long as the original Normally Open switch returns to the
Normally Open state when there is no pressure on the
plunger. If the spring breaks in the original switch, the original
switch may stay shorted at all times.

+-----------+
/ | |
X----+---/ +---+---+ | When wired this way, either
| | | switch can work it. It's only
+-------+ | | if one button is "jammed ON"
| | | that this idea is no good.
| X-------------------+ |
| | If the original switch is jammed
| / | ON, you have to cut it loose.
+-----------/ +---------------+

Just about every place you need to get at, to make
those connections, is covered in plastic. To "T" into
a wire, is a tricky job for someone even with the
right kind of wire strippers. I hate trying to make those
connections. You have to take an Xacto knife and skin the
wire between the two breaks you make with the yellow strippers.

But that's the cheapest way to fix it.

It's actually hard to find good switches to make
computer power buttons. My digital camera battery just
died, so I can't show you my emergency button I have
prepared here. It's just a calculator style switch, a
square push button intended for low voltage low current
work. But the reason I have one of those, is when I
have a motherboard on the kitchen table, that's how
I turn them on and off is with that button and the two
leads on the end that fit over the box header pins on
the motherboard.

Mine is similar to this, only it has a square of plastic
on the plunger, for more comfortable actuation. Sometimes
you get lucky, and a local electronics store will have
one of these on a twisted pair.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9190

Wired like this ? It's still an SPST single pole single throw

https://elinux.org/images/4/4b/Mpushbuttonworking.jpg

For years, I have used the excruciating/nasty switches
from Radio Shack. A small round button on top, with
extremely high pressure requirement to work the switch.
Radio Shack didn't always stock the nice switches. It
can take a bit of searching, to find anything which is
pleasant to use.

You don't have to solder wires. Occasionally, you can get
away with twisted on contacts. But that's not really a
"reliable" connection, done that way.

In this example, a little more of the work is done for you.

https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/02d804e1-56f1-4ead-9d05-5e3e6f1c3cb8_1.53224ddd7f589c707ed597b0aafda760.jpeg

( https://www.walmart.com/ip/PC-Power-Cable-48cm-2-Pin-SW-Cable-On-Off-Reset-Push-Button-ATX-Desktop-Computer-Case-Motherboard-Switch-Wire/136234392 )

For one of those, you could lift the plastic tabs on the
motherboard end of the cable, and pull the pins out of
their housing. Then shove the pins into the
corresponding holes of the 2x6 you've currently got. You lift
the tab with an Xacto knife, being careful not to damage the tab.

The only problem with that concept, is the pins are not
always shaped correctly, for "every" housing of the 2xN kind.
Some may end up loose in there and not remain properly affixed.

Not all pin header shells have the lift-able tabs, but those
tabs are excellent for repair work.

Pin headers come on 0.1" and 2mm centers, have various
heights and pin designs inside. The pins in this case, have
to fit over some kind of square post. It's up to you to verify,
as best you can, what size of header is on the motherboard.
whether it's a metric spaced one or an Imperial one (0.1").

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sat, 5 Feb 2022 at 19:03:33, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

On 2/5/2022 4:19 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I mean no offense but Paul knows my system very well and I
would rather wait until I hear what he has to say.

See below (-:!

Also I need to know what switch or whatever to buy and he generally
is able to go to right to what I need.

Ah. I assumed the assembly you'd found on ebay _was_ the right sort
(though more than needs changing if it's only the switch).

Also working with the PC open and running is something I've never
done even

Fair enough.

if allot of people do it and it seems allot of work with the switches
and soldering
that I've never done before. This is beyond me.
However, I can open it up and see if anything has been dislodged or
broken. That I can do and is a good first step.

Definitely do that. Assuming that ebay thing _is_ what's inside your
machine, and you can persuade it to come unclipped, you should be able
to see how - mechanically - whatever you press on the outside of the
case transfers to the switch inside that module.

I did power it off finally last night and was again difficult to
power on.
So I'll leave the computer on the rest of today and tonight and then power >> it off and open it up.
p.s. thanks for the tip about the eBay url, I didn't know that.

You're welcome. (The rest gives all sorts of information of how you got
to the item in question, I think.)

Robert

You can wire a switch in parallel with the existing switch.

I don't think Robert would feel confident enough to do that.

This assume the switch is not failing "short circuit"
and is instead failing open.

The switch type needed is SPST Normally Open.
When the button is not depressed, an Ohm meter
indicates the two switch contacts are an open circuit.

If you do have a multimeter (they mostly have a beeper function,
sometimes on the "diode test" function), that is worth a check. You'd
have to unplug the header from the motherboard end, and connect the
meter probes to the wires that come from the switch (possibly by poking something, like straightened paper clips, into the relevant two holes in
the connector); if you do that and the switch is OK, the meter should
beep when you hold the switch in. You could do that even without having
to persuade the module to come unclipped - unplugging the connector from
the motherboard end is easy.
[]

Pin headers come on 0.1" and 2mm centers, have various
heights and pin designs inside. The pins in this case, have
to fit over some kind of square post. It's up to you to verify,
as best you can, what size of header is on the motherboard.
whether it's a metric spaced one or an Imperial one (0.1").

[]
I think the "front panel" connector has been around long enough that
it's a standard pinout, on 0.1" spacing. That https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nMVK6Lpge0 suggests (about 18 seconds
in) that it's

ooxLLlPP
SoosHhRR

, where LLl are the power-on LED, PP the power switch, Ss the speaker,
Hh the disc access LED, and RR the reset switch (the case may not have a
reset switch and/or an internal speaker). (x being the blanked-off hole
so you can't plug it in the wrong way.)

(I'd prefer to have got that from TheHardwareBook, but this seems to be
one of the connectors it doesn't cover.) Some cases have separate
two-socket connectors for each LED and switch, some - like the ebay one
you've found - have them all wired into one header. All in one is better
in that it's harder to connect the wrong things to the wrong places, but separate (as he shows in the video; pause it at 18 seconds in) are
easier to replace when one bit fails. As he says, sometimes the various
pins are also labelled on the motherboard itself.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"EARTH is 98% full. Please delete anybody you can." - Fortunes file

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/5/2022 4:25 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

Please give me your recommendation on what I should do?

I can't keep going on with the 8500 powering up like this.
Someday it won't power on at all. I do have the new PSU's
that we bought for both computers but that would be a bear
to do and if its just the switch couldn't I just replace that but
I need your assistance to order one or a different one maybe
from Newegg?

As I've said, I would like one like the 780 has if possible.

The 8500 runs fine once its powered on.

Thanks,
Robert

The 8500 part seems to be F7M7N. That's
a cable assembly.

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8700-power-button-broke/td-p/5761325

You can see in the take-apart someone did, the switch portion
doesn't have the actuator. The actuator is a separate thing that
presses on the switch body. It could be that something is worn
down and not making contact with the switch any more.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The F7M7N looks the same as the one on eBay I found

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468?

I'll take it apart and see if I can see anything but if its
worn is there something I can wedge in-between there
so it makes contact again?

In the link you gave the guy cut the wires which means he had
to re-solder them. He also did allot cutting/drilling and altering
to fit a new different switch. I don't know if that's beyond me. I
could really screw the 8500 so it doesn't work at all. I don't want
to break anything either in trying to remove it.

As I said in my earlier post I've never done any soldering although
I do have a 23W Weller soldering iron and two types of solder.

If I can't get it to work when I open it up maybe its better we
just buy a new switch? Should I get the one on eBay or try
Newegg?

What do you think?

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Your right I don't feel confident on wiring a switch in parallel.

Some of the things you guys talk about is above my head and I
can barely keep up.

p.s. I remembered your tip about the ebay and ? thanks again

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 at 00:12:59, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

The F7M7N looks the same as the one on eBay I found

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468?

you mean in the thread https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8700-power-button-broke/td-p/5761325
that Paul found?

I'll take it apart and see if I can see anything but if its
worn is there something I can wedge in-between there
so it makes contact again?

It looked from that thread as if it was in more cases the switch itself
that is faulty, than the plastic piece you push being out of position or
worn. But I'd certainly check that first! If you _can_ get the (switch-plus-two-LEDs) module out without breaking it, you should be
able to test the switch - either by seeing if poking it with any pointed
object makes the PC start, or if you're unhappy doing that, unplugging
the motherboard end and checking it with a continuity beeper (if you
haven't got one, ask any techy friend to lend you theirs - or buy one; a multimeter's a useful thing to have, even if you only ever use it for continuity beeping and checking battery/cell voltages - and you can get
them for a few bucks [make sure it _does_ have a beep function though -
most do]).

If you discover that the switch _is_ OK (in which case replacing the
switch or the whole module won't help) so it _is_ the plastic piece you
need to fix - then yes, anything you can wedge in, or glue onto it, will
be fine. (Better a piece of plastic or wood that you cut off something -
don't use anything metal in case it falls off inside and shorts
something.

In the link you gave the guy cut the wires which means he had
to re-solder them. He also did allot cutting/drilling and altering
to fit a new different switch. I don't know if that's beyond me. I
could really screw the 8500 so it doesn't work at all. I don't want
to break anything either in trying to remove it.

If you find it _is_ the switch itself that needs changing, then given
your hesitancy about your skill level, then changing the whole module -
for $30 - is probably the answer (and it then wouldn't matter if you
break the module getting it out as you'd be buying a new/replacement one anyway). But make sure it _is_ the switch that's faulty, not just a broken/dislodged piece of plastic, first!

As I said in my earlier post I've never done any soldering although
I do have a 23W Weller soldering iron and two types of solder.

Unless you've only got a tiny amount of solder, have a practice, joining
some similar items (ideally copper, such as bits of stripped electrical
wire) - if you _do_ go that route. (The solder that says "60/40" on it somewhere is probably the easiest to work with.) a 23 watt iron will
take a while to heat up.

If I can't get it to work when I open it up maybe its better we
just buy a new switch? Should I get the one on eBay or try
Newegg?

What do you think?

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

It's up to you; if you establish that the switch _is_ faulty and it's
not just that the plastic piece is broken or misaligned, you've got to
replace it. If you don't want to do any soldering/crimping, then the
module is your only choice; I don't think newegg or similar will have
the whole module, only the switch (you may or may not be able to find
one of the same physical size). I don't know if they do, but they _may_
have one with some bits of wire already attached - but you'd still need
to put the metal contacts onto the other end (the motherboard
connector), which is fiddly (not to mention getting the old ones out of
the connector); if I was replacing just the switch, I'd be re-using the existing wires. Probably best for you to just replace the whole module.
But - sorry to keep saying it! - only if you're _sure_ that's where the
problem is, rather than either the piece of plastic or the
motherboard/PSU. Eliminating _those_ as the source of the problem is why
we want you to try starting the PC by shorting the two wires - which you
could do without having to get the switch/module out at all; if it
starts reliably by you doing that, you'd at least know that the
PSU/motherboard are OK and to then go ahead with module/button/switch investigation. If it _doesn't_ start reliably by shorting the wires,
then you _do_ need to look at the PSU/motherboard. but let's hope it
isn't that. (Though you said you've got a spare PSU; changing that isn't _difficult_, just very tedious.)


--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The squeamish will squeam a lot.
(Barry Norman on the film "300", in Radio Times 30 March-5 April 2013.)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/6/2022 3:12 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

The F7M7N looks the same as the one on eBay I found

https://www.ebay.com/itm/115053589468?

I'll take it apart and see if I can see anything but if its
worn is there something I can wedge in-between there
so it makes contact again?

In the link you gave the guy cut the wires which means he had
to re-solder them. He also did allot cutting/drilling and altering
to fit a new different switch. I don't know if that's beyond me. I
could really screw the 8500 so it doesn't work at all. I don't want
to break anything either in trying to remove it.

As I said in my earlier post I've never done any soldering although
I do have a 23W Weller soldering iron and two types of solder.

If I can't get it to work when I open it up maybe its better we
just buy a new switch? Should I get the one on eBay or try
Newegg?

What do you think?

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

I don't know how practical this is, but if the "button"
could be moved out of the way, so you could gain access
to the tiny plunger button on the switch, maybe with the
8500 reassembled again, you could press on the recessed
button on the switch and see if the switch behaves cleanly
on its own. Like use a lead pencil, eraser end down, to press the
button and turn the 8500 on.

I'm not trying to turn you into a professional soldering guy :-)
It's just in this case, the assembly is way way too complicated
for an FP solution. All the job needs is just four 1x2 twisted
cables. That would have allowed easy maintenance and
modular repair. With four 1x2 cables (like there is in the
PC to the right of me at the moment), if a LED were to burn out,
I can replace the LED cable without disturbing anything else.
Same would go with a switch cable. I've already moved
the switch cable off to the side (lying on the table)
for easier access from my sitting position.

It's a shame how Dell made this thing, makes it so hard
to fix stuff. It's like they're saying "we want you to buy
our cable assembly", and in the same breath they will tell
you "hey, we don't make that cable assembly any more". It
remains to be seen, what stock of those is available, and
at what nutty Internet pricing.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I like your suggestion of moving the button out of the way.

If it needs to be soldered then I'll guess I'll try,,,.... just tell me
what and if I have the right kind of solder. I have a Weller 23 W
soldering iron with holder (yes, I know its takes awhile to get hot).
I have rosin core solder and silver lead free solder ( have more of that).

So will get back with you after I take it apart and see if I can move
the button to the side and see if I can just depress the plunger that way.

What do you think of John's suggestion of shortening the wires? You
know my history and chances are all too good something not good will
happen.

However shouldn't I buy the switch on eBay just to have because they
are hard to find?

Thoughts/suggestions?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

As it turns out I haven't opened the 8500
yet to check it out. I had my days mixed
up and thought today was Monday and had
a VA appointment I needed to go to.

So will open it up later tonight. Luckily it
still powered on.

I'll check it out and see what I can find and yes
I thought about what to wedge in (plastic would
be best I think).

If I understand you correctly, it's best to try shorting
the wires (with the power cables etc connected as a
process of elimination to see if its the motherboard
or the switch that's at fault. I can always tape over the
scraped wires, correct?

I'm just wondering if my cables are long enough to
do this with it open.

However I think I would like to try Pauls suggestion
first.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/6/2022 4:07 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I like your suggestion of moving the button out of the way.

If it needs to be soldered then I'll guess I'll try,,,.... just tell me
what and if I have the right kind of solder. I have a Weller 23 W
soldering iron with holder (yes, I know its takes awhile to get hot).
I have rosin core solder and silver lead free solder ( have more of that).

So will get back with you after I take it apart and see if I can move
the button to the side and see if I can just depress the plunger that way.

What do you think of John's suggestion of shortening the wires? You
know my history and chances are all too good something not good will
happen.

However shouldn't I buy the switch on eBay just to have because they
are hard to find?

Thoughts/suggestions?

Robert

If you're going to buy an off-brand switch, you'll need to use your
calipers and take some size readings off it, to ensure it fits in
the available space. Like, see if it is a 12mm button.

My little emergency button, for motherboard test, is 12.4mm, so isn't
exactly the same as the ones I was looking at earlier. As for the idea of metric, if the item has "crazy dimensions", then sometimes it's because
the switch is actually metric dimensions. The dimensions of my switch,
don't seem to align with either system particularly. It's not a nice round number in Imperial either.

You know there are, like, a million of those things :-) It's not like
the catalog only has a half dozen, and I can easily access the right
one on the first try.

For example, there are over 9000 "push button switches" here.
The Digikey.com site did not respond when I tried that.

https://www.mouser.com/c/electromechanical/switches/pushbutton-switches/?q=push%20button%20switch

Type=Subminiature
Illuminated="Non-Illuminated"
Contact Form = SPST-NO (Single Pole Single Throw Normally Open)

Normally, something has to hold a switch in position.
The squarish shape prevents rotation.
If there are panel rings on it, the switch can be
affixed at a fixed level with respect to a front panel sheet metal.

As the engineer on this project, you have to examine the mounting fixture provided, and decide how the switch will be prevented from falling out.

You can see in this example, the switch has blades on it, that you can
slide a crimped connector over each leg. But such an approach is only
feasible, if there is mechanical clearance underneath to coil up the
excess wire and so on. Some switch terminations encourage soldering,
others will take a slide on connector. Slide on connectors might be
used in an appliance assembly plant.

Anyway, using the search, you can consider the kind of switch you want to
try. I suspect the contact pressure on this one might be too high.
It's a 5 ampere switch, and a lot more than is needed for the job.
The power switch on most PCs, only needs a 5 volt logic rating, and
currents of well under 10 milliamps (0.01 amps). That's why mine, is
little more than a kind of "calculator button".

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Littelfuse/9187?qs=lM4gFlnEeEP6XuRYyw%252B6OA%3D%3D

Mouser doesn't show a datasheet in PDF format on the page.
This slows down the selection process. We need dimensions,
mechanical details (pressure to actuate the switch) and so on,
to make a selection and get it right on the first try.

You might think this is easy, but I have a hell of a time
finding suitable items like this. I'm just not very good at
it :-)

The guy who used to do these at work, he quit and became a
"stock trader". Because he was sick of doing those, plus
getting pressure from managers to rush certain projects forward.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hmmmm understood,

As for buying a switch like the
one off of ebay, I'm just going by
what it says. That it fits the Dell
8300, 8500 and 8700 . That's all
I know about them.

Holy crap that's allot of pushbuttons!

I'll try and open it up tonight and see
what I can find out and do. I'll take pics
as I go. I don't want to do anything so
that the 8500 no longer powers up either.

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

These instructions were part of one of the links.

Take the side panel off first, allowing access to the release tabs for
the front panel and the top cover. Remove the front bezel first. There
are four tabs on the left side, which should be pulled outwards to
release them from the chassis and then the bezel will swing out and
release.

Next remove the top cover. There is a plastic release tab in the center
of the top of the chassis, pull this down and push the top cover forward towards the front of the PC to release the cover.

Now you will have access to the switch and LED assembly, to which the
power switch is just a push fit.


I opened up the 8500 and removed the
bezel which I had done before but was
unable to remove the top.

I didn't see any plastic release tab in the center
top of the cover, maybe I missed it but there are
tabs that are holding it in. (last 2 pics)

I cleaned it out however and the front bezel and the
computer started allot easier. I wonder if just opening
it up and pushing it and cleaning it out helped?



https://postimg.cc/sMcsN2jY

https://postimg.cc/9468PG6J

https://postimg.cc/G8PWH74k

https://postimg.cc/8s13ZbF0

https://postimg.cc/JGspFYRP

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 7 Feb 2022 at 00:15:39, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

I cleaned it out however and the front bezel and the
computer started allot easier. I wonder if just opening
it up and pushing it and cleaning it out helped?

Sounds like it did. If it now feels reliable _enough_, you can probably
stop now, and hope it doesn't get worse again within the life of the PC
- or, you could decide that you've proved to your own satisfaction that
the problem _is_ in that area, and buy the replacement module, knowing
that you can break the old one getting it out since you have a
replacement (as long as you don't break anything else that is). Or, you
could just soldier on (not solder!), in the knowledge that if it does deteriorate again, you now know how to make it better again.

https://postimg.cc/sMcsN2jY

https://postimg.cc/9468PG6J

https://postimg.cc/G8PWH74k

https://postimg.cc/8s13ZbF0

https://postimg.cc/JGspFYRP

I couldn't make out too much from those. That website included
distracting moving pictures of young women in bikinis when I looked at
them ... (-:

Thoughts/suggestions?

Above.

Robert

John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum." Translation: "Garbage in, garbage out."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 6 Feb 2022 at 12:46:20, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

If I understand you correctly, it's best to try shorting
the wires (with the power cables etc connected as a
process of elimination to see if its the motherboard
or the switch that's at fault.

Yes. If shorting the two wires reliably starts the PC, then the
motherboard and PSU are OK, and the fault is in the switch assembly
(either faulty switch or worn/misaligned plastic). If shorting the wires
still only sometimes starts the PC, it's bad news.

I can always tape over the
scraped wires, correct?

Yes.

I'm just wondering if my cables are long enough to
do this with it open.

However I think I would like to try Pauls suggestion
first.

If you mean reassembling the PC with the plastic actuator left out, so
you end up poking a pencil or other object to the switch itself, then
there's not a lot to lose (as long as the disassemby/reassembly doesn't
break any plastic tabs). If said poking at the switch then reliably
started the PC, you'd know the switch itself, motherboard, and PSU were
OK, and it was just a mechanical problem. If it's _still_ unreliable,
you still don't know where the fault is.

Robert

But see next post.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"Purgamentum init, exit purgamentum." Translation: "Garbage in, garbage out."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The problem came back. ,..and was hard to start once again.
I bought a new maglight to help me see better to locate the
plastic tab I to release the top panel to give me access to the
switch assembly. If I can, I will try and set the button aside.

but I may have to end up shorting the wire by scraping them to
bare wire to test it.

I don't know at this point, I'm just taking baby steps. Right now
my main problem is removing the top cover. So will try again
tonight.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I took the 8500 apart again but I couldn't
find the tab to release the top cover. I saw
a metal tab and depressed it but nothing
happened. I think its the part of the top
cover that slides forward. I could see the
side tabs as well that would slide forward
but couldn't find the release.

These are looking at the underside of the top cover.

https://postimg.cc/V5fCZsGr

https://postimg.cc/Q90HZ54B

https://postimg.cc/VJnvL2ZP

These instructions were part of one of the links.

Take the side panel off first, allowing access to the release tabs for
the front panel and the top cover. Remove the front bezel first. There
are four tabs on the left side, which should be pulled outwards to
release them from the chassis and then the bezel will swing out and
release.

Next remove the top cover. There is a plastic release tab in the center
of the top of the chassis, pull this down and push the top cover forward towards the front of the PC to release the cover.

Now you will have access to the switch and LED assembly, to which the
power switch is just a push fit.


In the directions, he talks of a plastic release tab in the
center of the top of the chassis to pull down to release
it but on mine it seems there's wires attached to it. Is
that what he's talking about? The big black thing, to
pull down?

Also the black screen came back before the desktop
and stayed for quite some time so I was able to take pics.

https://postimg.cc/LYXmfWDX

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/8/2022 4:45 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I took the 8500 apart again but I couldn't
find the tab to release the top cover. I saw
a metal tab and depressed it but nothing
happened. I think its the part of the top
cover that slides forward. I could see the
side tabs as well that would slide forward
but couldn't find the release.

These are looking at the underside of the top cover.

https://postimg.cc/V5fCZsGr <=== aha! Pipe smoking ???

https://postimg.cc/Q90HZ54B

https://postimg.cc/VJnvL2ZP

These instructions were part of one of the links.

Take the side panel off first, allowing access to the release tabs for
the front panel and the top cover. Remove the front bezel first. There
are four tabs on the left side, which should be pulled outwards to
release them from the chassis and then the bezel will swing out and
release.

Next remove the top cover. There is a plastic release tab in the center
of the top of the chassis, pull this down and push the top cover forward towards the front of the PC to release the cover.

Now you will have access to the switch and LED assembly, to which the
power switch is just a push fit.

In the directions, he talks of a plastic release tab in the
center of the top of the chassis to pull down to release
it but on mine it seems there's wires attached to it. Is
that what he's talking about? The big black thing, to
pull down?

Also the black screen came back before the desktop
and stayed for quite some time so I was able to take pics.

https://postimg.cc/LYXmfWDX

Thoughts/Suggestions?
Robert

It's a good thing you took those pictures.

Your PC has some crud on the circuit board. Electronics
don't necessarily like material buildup.

One of the mechanical engineers at work, insisted that
dust and moisture collecting under the legs of the integrated
circuits, could lead to circuit malfunction. We told him he
was crazy, but that's what team effort is for, identifying
product risks. The idea is, if dirt collects underneath stuff,
*plus* the air is acidic or corrosive, the combination might
attack conductors and the like. I'm still not convinced this
is a real risk -- but, the "corrosive gas mixture test" is
part of standard product integrity testing and is more gross
than any environment you might have in your living room :-)

If there were any high impedance circuits on the board, they could
be thrown off, if a conductive path forms through the debris on
the circuit board surface.

I am not recommending cleaning at this time. The composition
of those deposits, I don't think isopropyl would be sufficient
for cleaning. And electronics are not rated for solvents powerful
enough to remove cigarette smoke or pipe smoke. The solvents
that would clean the circuit board, would start to eat the IC
package bodies. Whereas isopropyl would not hurt them. And
there is always a risk when smearing around any debris, of making
it pile up somewhere we don't want it to go. Cleaning in this
case, is more risky than not cleaning.

*******

Your black desktop, partially rendered, is not suggestive of
a power switch failure.

I take it you have two sets of symptoms.

1) Machine fans don't start to spin after just one press of the button.
It is taking multiple button presses, to start the fans spinning
and get BIOS POST to start.

That could be a switch issue. Or, it could also be a "backfeed
cut" logic problem affecting the ability of the circuit to recognize
you want it to switch on. This is the part of circuit design which
is not "controlled" by Intel -- the hardware engineers make up
their own custom logic and design, to meet backfeed requirements
(currents flowing where they are not supposed to go). Sometimes,
these designs don't meet requirements properly.

2) The desktop has come up. I can see the Taskbar in your picture.
Yet, the bulk of the desktop is not showing. I think it is black
via some initial definition of the displayed surface of the desktop.
The machine has yet to load the background picture. That's what it
looks like to me. Why is the background picture missing ? Usually,
drawing the Taskbar is late in desktop initialization, so it would
seem we're pretty far along in that process.

So (1) and (2) are separate problems.

(1) could be a switch issue, but the condition of the surface of the motherboard just might be a contributing factor.

For (2), I don't really have anything to offer on that. Why there
would be a delay. If it was my machine, I would be using Procmon
boot tracing, and see if I could see some process holding up the
works. But since I've tried that a few times, and been mostly
unhappy with the results, I can hardly suggest that in good
conscience. Going to the trouble of boot tracing the thing,
I doubt the software is going to "tell us in no uncertain terms",
what is broken there.

It could be, that the OS is having trouble reading the background
image file. But that's a long shot.

You can check eventvwr.msc (Event Viewer) and see if any
events are being collected, like error messages. But I don't
think it's a video card problem, because the Taskbar is rendered,
I see colors there, so it's not like the whole desktop is
not rendering. It is rendering. It's just there is no
background picture showing up.

This might be a job for a Macrium Restore to a previous date,
but then you'd have to tell us exactly how long this has been
happening - as to what the odds are a restore will fix it.

If the machine is run with one of your alternate disks, does
the desktop still come up slowly ?

*******

This is for the 8700.

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8700-top-cover-removal/td-p/7434991

"HOWEVER (amazing this is missing in the manual), you have to unsecure the
optical drive, and push it partially out the front to get access to the
retaining clip. I couldn't even see the retaining clip until I did that.

The image (shown below) in the manual is so bad. Where exactly is the
retaining clip? To where exactly is that detail of the clip pointing? It
looks like its pointing to the side of the case, not up and under, and
toward the front of the computer.

Terrible

I happened to stumble upon the answer when checking the procedure in the
service manual for the DELL XPS 8300."

So the guy uses the manual for an 8300, to get hints on how to open his 8700 :-)

*******

Now, it makes sense, when I read the 8500 manual.

Prerequisites
1 Remove the computer cover. See "Removing the Computer Cover" on page 23.
2 Remove the front bezel. See "Removing the Front Bezel" on page 31.
3 Remove the optical drive. See "Removing the Optical Drive" on page 67. <===

Removing the Top Cover
1 Pull the release tab, and slide the top cover towards the front of the
computer to release the top-cover tabs from the slots on the top panel.
2 Pull the top cover away from the top panel.
3 Set the top cover aside in a secure location.

So that manual makes note that the optical drive must
be moved forward, to allow you to see the release tab.
If you move it too far forward, it could fall out, and
perhaps that's why the procedure says to remove the drive,
so you don't drop it.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I know its dirty, I apologize. Yes, I'm a pipe smoker.

What about using simple green or Windex with a q-tip
or brush to clean the circuit boards? Too risky?

I did use compressed air (held back) to clean it some
and a paint brush to get some of the dust off and I cleaned
the front bezel thoroughly. I could try masking tape again
and clear out as much as I can.

Ahah - It was the retaining tab I was depressing vs pulling
down but as the guy in the link says he had to remove the
optical drive to gain access and as you can see from the pics
in the link and my pictures I'll have to do the same thing.

Yes,, I noted it has to slide forward also and you can see
that with the side tabs. I'll just remove the optical drive
rather than risking it falling if I move it too far forward
as you suggest.

While I'll have the computer open again do you recommend
I use a brush at lease or compressed air to try and clean the
circuit board?

Hopefully, once I have the cover off then I'll see if I can
remove the button.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/8/2022 2:48 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I know its dirty, I apologize. Yes, I'm a pipe smoker.

What about using simple green or Windex with a q-tip
or brush to clean the circuit boards? Too risky?

I did use compressed air (held back) to clean it some
and a paint brush to get some of the dust off and I cleaned
the front bezel thoroughly. I could try masking tape again
and clear out as much as I can.

Ahah - It was the retaining tab I was depressing vs pulling
down but as the guy in the link says he had to remove the
optical drive to gain access and as you can see from the pics
in the link and my pictures I'll have to do the same thing.

Yes,, I noted it has to slide forward also and you can see
that with the side tabs. I'll just remove the optical drive
rather than risking it falling if I move it too far forward
as you suggest.

While I'll have the computer open again do you recommend
I use a brush at lease or compressed air to try and clean the
circuit board?

Hopefully, once I have the cover off then I'll see if I can
remove the button.

Robert

There are very few cleaners which are safe and compatible for this.
Even a brush can be dangerous, which is why it's very hard to
clean.

An ultrasonic bath would be compatible with many of the
components on the board, but I don't know if quartz (timing)
crystals are safe that way. Quartz crystals are easily damaged
if you hit one of their resonant frequencies.

I would just carry on with the switch work for the moment.

I don't think your desktop image issues are caused
by a hardware issue with the video card. So I don't see
a reason to be fussing over it for cleaning.

Smoke makes the dust stick to stuff, which is why it's
difficult to clean. And any solvent strong enough to
lift a smoke material, would probably attack the
epoxy on some of the ICs.

There are liquids which are compatible with ICs which
could be used in a cleaning bath. Like fluorinert. Perhaps
a smoke would dissolve in that. But that stuff is $500
a bottle, and has to be disposed by sending it back to
the manufacturer (they can redistill it). It's not ozone
friendly, which is why you don't pour it down the sink
or toss it in the landfill. There are some electronic assemblies
that are completely immersed in it. Some datacenters use
that liquid for cooling. You cannot dunk conventional
hard drives in it, because it might get through the
breather hole on the drive. But SSDs would work in that
liquid.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Understood,

I will just carry on with the switch work
and take out the optical drive and hopefully
I'll be able to release the top cover to gain
access and move the button aside.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I finally was able to remove the top cover after I
removed the optical drive. The push button is part
of the top cover actually. So I removed it and put
everything back together but it wouldn't start.

https://postimg.cc/1fxJYJV3

https://postimg.cc/gXCqQ2JT

https://postimg.cc/Mv8mYHgc

https://postimg.cc/0zVGxfjm

https://postimg.cc/5HGwQ2w2


Maybe I wasn't depressing the plunger but I thought
I was and I tried all sorts of things to fit in. It's in a
difficult location with a shelf right over it.

So I put the push button back on and put it back together
and it started.

What I can do as an experiment if you want is take
off the top cover again and try to start it without the top
cover on so it's easier to access the plunger and see if
it starts then. Of course I'll still have to put the top
cover back on. I just need something small and I think
wooden matches would be perfect.

Another thing that worries me is if the 8500 should fail
how will I get all my bookmarks and documents to the
780? I have the mrimgs of course but those are all for the
8500 and wouldn't work on the 780. Would I copy/paste?
What about my bookmarks?

I hope I don't loose the 8500 because of this push button
issue. It's a beautiful computer in every other respect.

Thoughts/suggestions

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 8 Feb 2022 at 01:45:24, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

These instructions were part of one of the links.

[]

Now you will have access to the switch and LED assembly, to which the
power switch is just a push fit.

I'm wondering what they mean by "the power switch is just a push fit".

If it is, and you can pull it out, still attached to its two wires, then
you can try it by pressing its little plunger; if that starts the PC
reliably, then it isn't at fault, but if it doesn't, you still don't
know if the fault is in the motherboard/PSU. If shorting the wires - or,
the contacts on the back of the switch, if they're exposed when you push
it out (if so, you can do that rather than scraping the wires) - _does_ reliably start the PC, then the switch needs replacing. If that's the
case, I _hope_ the wires are push-fit onto the tabs or pins on the back
of the switch; if soldered, you're going to have to solder.

BUT ...
[]

Also the black screen came back before the desktop
and stayed for quite some time so I was able to take pics.

https://postimg.cc/LYXmfWDX

[]
... the power switch tells the power supply (and thus PC) to wake up
from dead - fans start to spin, panel lights come on, and so on. If the
PC is always getting to the point shown in your last picture above -
windows screen border and taskbar on the monitor - then we've been
chasing a red herring with the switch; for it to get that far, the
motherboard, graphics card, and disc drive must be getting power, so
there's nothing wrong with the power switch or power supply or the parts
of the motherboard between the two.

So _has_ it always been getting that far, or have we two different
faults - sometimes the PC doesn't show any sign of life, but sometimes
it does but it stops at the "black screen"?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush.
It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.
-Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Not sure about scraping wires now since they are
so small, and I don't want to cause more damage.

Yes were talking about two different problems.

1. is that its having problems powering on normally like the 780
which always powers on and has a different kind of switch vs the
plunger type like the 8500 has.

2. the black out screen is intermittent and I mentioned it to Paul
before but it was always so fast I couldn't get a picture of it but it
wold come up before the desktop and as Paul surmised its probably
just still loading the drivers etc. It only happens once in awhile.


Thanks
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 15:56:57, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

I finally was able to remove the top cover after I
removed the optical drive. The push button is part
of the top cover actually. So I removed it and put
everything back together but it wouldn't start.

https://postimg.cc/1fxJYJV3

https://postimg.cc/gXCqQ2JT

I'm _guessing_ the actual switch is the square thing with an S on it.

When you had it in that condition, did it make a slight click if you
poked it with something? Switches usually do click a little.

https://postimg.cc/Mv8mYHgc

https://postimg.cc/0zVGxfjm

https://postimg.cc/5HGwQ2w2

Would I be right in guessing that the little bit of transparent plastic
with a rectangle on it, that seems to glued to the back of the round
black plastic pushbutton, is what actually presses the switch? (I can't
see what its purpose is if not.)

Maybe I wasn't depressing the plunger but I thought
I was and I tried all sorts of things to fit in. It's in a

Straightened-out then bent paperclip?

difficult location with a shelf right over it.

I take it you mean the PC is. Can you not take it out and stand it on a
table or chair or something, even the floor? Just for checking whether
the power switch makes it come alive, it doesn't matter if things aren't connected, like monitor or even keyboard and mouse (only the power cord, obviously!); If you're just seeing whether it powers up, just whether
the front panel power light comes on will suffice. (If it does come on,
turn it off again - probably at the power strip, or by yanking the cord
- within a second or two, so it doesn't get as far as starting to boot.)

So I put the push button back on and put it back together
and it started.

If it does so reliably, then you're home dry (-:

What I can do as an experiment if you want is take
off the top cover again and try to start it without the top
cover on so it's easier to access the plunger and see if

If back together as above doesn't start _reliably_, then yes, do that.
If that then _does_ start reliably, you have isolated the problem to
being somewhere in the mechanical assembly.

it starts then. Of course I'll still have to put the top
cover back on. I just need something small and I think
wooden matches would be perfect.

Or a cocktail stick, pencil, ...

Another thing that worries me is if the 8500 should fail
how will I get all my bookmarks and documents to the
780? I have the mrimgs of course but those are all for the
8500 and wouldn't work on the 780. Would I copy/paste?
What about my bookmarks?

I hope I don't loose the 8500 because of this push button
issue. It's a beautiful computer in every other respect.

No, we're not going to let it! At least, not if it's just a misaligned pushbutton or faulty fifty-cent switch. (Even if you have to pay $5
including carriage for the switch, or even $30 for the whole module.)
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A good pun is its own reword.

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On Wed, 9 Feb 2022 at 15:54:00, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

Not sure about scraping wires now since they are
so small, and I don't want to cause more damage.

Well, let's get to the point where you are reasonably sure it isn't just misalignment of the plastic pushbutton. If you can put it together
without the pushbutton, and poking through the hole at the switch
reliably starts it, then it _is_ the pushbutton; if not, it's either the
switch or the PSU or motherboard. Rather than scraping the wires, if you
can push the switch out of the module and the terminals are exposed, you
may be able to short them there to test - maybe even if you can get at
the back of the switch without taking it out of the module. They might
have sleeving on though. If you can get at those, and shorting them
reliably starts the PC, then the switch is at fault.

Yes were talking about two different problems.

1. is that its having problems powering on normally like the 780
which always powers on and has a different kind of switch vs the
plunger type like the 8500 has.

1. See above.

2. the black out screen is intermittent and I mentioned it to Paul
before but it was always so fast I couldn't get a picture of it but it
wold come up before the desktop and as Paul surmised its probably
just still loading the drivers etc. It only happens once in awhile.

2. Sounds as if that's not really a problem at the moment.

Thanks
Robert

John
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

still kicking, just not as high! - "c!" in alt.comp.os.windows-10, 2021-4-2

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The square thing with an S on it may be the switch
but the plunger is the round white thing.

I understand it now, the button pushes the plunger
(white round thing) and the clear plastic arm of the
button pushes the switch which activates it. That's
why it didn't and won't start by just pushing the plunger
alone. That's my guess.

No, I didn't notice any click.

Yes, I could move it for tests purposes but I don't like the
idea of pulling the cord or abnormal powering off. The
computer won't like that.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I can put it together to poke through the hole but as I said the way
the push button is made with the clear plastic arm which engages
the switch the same time the plunger is pushed means it won't work
by just pushing the plunger alone.

I think I can get the switch out if needed. It's held in by clips. There's (white, red, blue, and yellow wires attached) So which color wires would I short? Could I use a small screwdriver to short them? You sure this isn't
going to hurt the computer?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I get it about 2 wires for the LEDs and 2 wires for the
switch but which is which? There's blue, white, red and
yellow wires.

Here's where we are as I understand it;

I was able to remove the top cover and tried
depressing the plunger but it would not start.

The reason is because if you look at the push
button it has a clear plastic attachment so that
when the button is depressed the plunger goes
down carrying the clear plastic piece with it
which makes contact with the switch not the
button/ plunger.

https://postimg.cc/0zVGxfjm

That's why it would not start when I depressed
the plunger because pressing the plunger does
nothing without the clear plastic piece which
activates the switch.

As far as shorting the wires I'm not sure we can
do that. If you look at the pictures they are fully
insulated and looks like they have covering on
their ends.

https://postimg.cc/gXCqQ2JT

https://postimg.cc/Mv8mYHgc

I'm also a little leery of removing the switch
assembly to do this. I don't want to damage
something that I can't fix.

My concern is the computer is running and working
now and I want to explore all other possibilities
before taking that step.

Thoughts/Suggestions?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/10/2022 1:06 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I can put it together to poke through the hole but as I said the way
the push button is made with the clear plastic arm which engages
the switch the same time the plunger is pushed means it won't work
by just pushing the plunger alone.

I think I can get the switch out if needed. It's held in by clips. There's (white, red, blue, and yellow wires attached) So which color wires would I short? Could I use a small screwdriver to short them? You sure this isn't going to hurt the computer?

The +5V and the Resistor "R" are items on the motherboard part of the diagram. I could probably have done a better job of drawing this.

The materials on the right of that, are part of the cable assembly.

+ -
Two wires for LED. +5 -------R---+--- LED ----------+ (mobo driver grounds to light)
| |
LEDHOT LEDDRV
| |
X X

/
/
Two wires for switch. +5 -------R---+--+ +---------+ Ground
| |
(active low signal to PCH) PWR- GND
| |
X X

Trace and see.

There should be two wires to the LED, with just a LED on the ends.

And two wires to the Switch, with just the switch on the ends of the wires.

*******

Because these are FP header wires, electrically they try to make them safe.

*******

The most dangerous wire in a PC, is the speaker that makes the beep has
a +5V supply on one leg of the speaker, with NO fuse in the path (idiots!).
If the red wire to the speaker is pinched in the door on the PC, the red
wire turns into toaster wire, until it burns off :-)

There are two kinds of speakers. There is the round piezo beeper about the
size of a quarter. It's safe for a home user. No problem there. It's
the "transistor radio speaker" two inches in diameter with the paper cone,
that has the "hot" connection on one leg. Whether any company has remedied
this oversight, I don't know. I think it's possible to do a better job
than that, but that's just me. I first read of this, in a USENET group,
a warning to "don't pinch the RED wire, OK?".

The Optiplex 780 has an amp board strapped to the speaker, and it is "different" and is not the usual cheap implementation. There are likely
more than just two wires to that one.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/10/2022 4:00 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I get it about 2 wires for the LEDs and 2 wires for the
switch but which is which? There's blue, white, red and
yellow wires.

Here's where we are as I understand it;

I was able to remove the top cover and tried
depressing the plunger but it would not start.

The reason is because if you look at the push
button it has a clear plastic attachment so that
when the button is depressed the plunger goes
down carrying the clear plastic piece with it
which makes contact with the switch not the
button/ plunger.

https://postimg.cc/0zVGxfjm

That's why it would not start when I depressed
the plunger because pressing the plunger does
nothing without the clear plastic piece which
activates the switch.

As far as shorting the wires I'm not sure we can
do that. If you look at the pictures they are fully
insulated and looks like they have covering on
their ends.

https://postimg.cc/gXCqQ2JT

https://postimg.cc/Mv8mYHgc

I'm also a little leery of removing the switch
assembly to do this. I don't want to damage
something that I can't fix.

My concern is the computer is running and working
now and I want to explore all other possibilities
before taking that step.

Thoughts/Suggestions?

Robert

The other point of leverage, is the header where it plugs
into the motherboard.

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8700-does-not-power-on/td-p/7832109/page/2

In the diagram, the square pin is the keying pin and the
hole might be blocked on that pin. That might also help you
identify and verify the pin numbering mentioned on the Dell
forum thread. You can see that it's likely the blue wire is
part of the power switch.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/3NwKcMT0/header-cable-assembly.gif

The keying pin should establish the pin numbering, and
the disagreement the participants are having on the
pin numbers which are for the power switch. But I can't tell
from that picture, how many wires are involved there,
or where they are going. It may or may not be a 2x3 group
of wires.

The pin header usually has a visible hole over each pin. The
hole exists, because the pins usually have a "lock" that
engages the hole and prevents the pin from coming out of
the shell.

That hole (or for that matter, the hole where the wire goes
into the shell), does not leave a lot of room for making
bootleg connections :-) So if you were thinking you could
get in there, that would be a real challenge. You might need
30ga wirewrap wire to get in there or something. And with
30ga, if you nick the wire while stripping it, it snaps
real easy. 26ga ww wire is more robust, but also too big
for a lot of "microscope work".

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I think you an I agree even if we identify the wires to try shorting, scrapping/stripping the wires is too risky. If you want, I can try
and remove the switch and see what all the wires are connected
to so we can at least identify them and go from there.

http://static.highspeedbackbone.net/pdf/DELL%20XPS%208500%20Desktop%20PC%20Manual.pdf

same as your link:

http://static.highspeedbackbone.net/pdf/DELL%20XPS%208500%20Desktop%20PC%20Manual.pdf

However, good news,! the computer powered on immediately. It
may be a fluke and I'll test it later today by powering it off/on again
which I normally do anyway. I'm thinking, hoping that when I removed
the push button and then put it back I realigned it so it works now. I
hope.

So for now lets just see how it works

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 01:00:58, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

I get it about 2 wires for the LEDs and 2 wires for the
switch but which is which? There's blue, white, red and
yellow wires.

I can see in one of your pictures that one of the wires going to the LED
- which is at the end of the module - is yellow. (Where it's attached to
the LED, it has some black sleeving over the actual join.)
[]

That's why it would not start when I depressed
the plunger because pressing the plunger does
nothing without the clear plastic piece which
activates the switch.

I see, so if you reassemble the PC without what you are calling the
plunger - the round black plastic thing with the power symbol on it -
the actual switch is not in line with the hole, so you can't poke it.

As far as shorting the wires I'm not sure we can
do that. If you look at the pictures they are fully
insulated and looks like they have covering on
their ends.

https://postimg.cc/gXCqQ2JT

That's the one where I can see that one of the wires to the LED - the
white thing on the right of that picture, or towards the front of the
PC, with the black strap over it - is yellow. I'm pretty sure I can see
that the other one is black, but do look to be sure. That eliminates two
of the wires.

Ah! I've just realised what's going on: the round white thing that's
under the plunger is the power LED, seen face on - it shines through the
power symbol on the plunger. (So the LED on the end - the one with
yellow and I think black wires - must be the hard disc LED.)

https://postimg.cc/Mv8mYHgc

If I look closely at that, I can see the yellow and black wires
disappearing off into the distance, towards the HDD LED. The centre of
the picture seems to show the white and one of the reddish wires going
together to something, which I think will be the power LED, the one
under the plunger. They appear to have short lengths of black sleeving
over the LED legs too, same as the far LED. And in the foreground I can
see the blue wire, I think going to the switch, yet again with black
sleeving over the actual connection. I can't see the other reddish wire,
but I assume it goes to the other switch connection. The two reddish
wires aren't quite the same colour - one is more a dark pink - but I
can't see from your pictures; you should be able to tell though.

I'm also a little leery of removing the switch
assembly to do this. I don't want to damage
something that I can't fix.

The diag. on page 90 in the PDF you posted a link to shows which
tags/tabs to squeeze. It looks as if it's the two narrower tabs on each
side. I think they're the ones where the little dimples in the metal
are. You can see from the one of your pictures that shows the underside
of the thing, that the tabs/tags won't have to be squeezed much to allow
the module just to be lifted off. Though there really isn't any point
unless you _are_ going to do so to identify which wires to shave.

But I see no reason why you can't operate the PC with just the plastic
parts (front and top panels, and the "plunger") removed, so you can
operate the switch directly; you've got that far to take the pictures.
[]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

/Downton Abbey/ presented a version of the past that appealed to anyone who
had ever bought a National Trust tea towel. - Alison Graham, RT 2015/11/7-13

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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What I call the plunger is the white round thing that
the push button (round black button with power symbol
on it) depresses.

However I did remove the button (with power symbol on
it ) and you're correct the switch was not aligned.

It looks like pink, white, blue, yellow and red or brown wires
to me and all have sleeves on them as you said. The yellow
and black wires terminate in the LED

https://postimg.cc/m1DJD1G6

https://postimg.cc/N5vRQq7R

https://postimg.cc/9DqbJtpB

https://postimg.cc/V5pbDyH3

I saw the release tabs for the switch as well on the last picture
and I agree it doesn't look like it would take much squeezing to
release the switch assembly but as you say there really isn't much
point unless were going to identify the wires to shave.

As I said it needs the plunger(with power sign) with the clear
plastic arm that's attached to it so when depressed its that
clear plastic arm that actually activates the switch.

In any case, I turned the computer off and then back on after
awhile and it started with no problem again. Granted, it's still
early but hopefully my taking out the push button(with power symbol)
and then re-seating it may of fixed it but I'll continue to monitor it
and lets hope for the best.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/11/2022 12:02 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

re-seating it may of fixed it but I'll continue to monitor it
and lets hope for the best.

Robert

That sounds fixed to me :-)

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I powered it off and then back on a little
while later again and it came on. I had to
hold it down a little bit longer this last time
but nowhere near like before.

So (3) successful startups today.

So maybe that fixed it?

Many thanks for all your good help and Johns.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote


| That sounds fixed to me :-)
|
What a relief. But I know it won't be long
before Robert posts again in xp.general to ask why
the cover on his Win10 computer is loose... and it
will be another 100 posts in which he won't hesitate in
the slightest to waste your time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thu, 10 Feb 2022 at 21:02:39, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

What I call the plunger is the white round thing that
the push button (round black button with power symbol
on it) depresses.

I think that "white round thing" is in fact not part of the switch at
all - and isn't intended to move at all, though it may move a little if
it's not actually glued in place.

I think it is the top of an LED! Or, at least, the diffuser for one.
Which shines through the power symbol on the push button. I think the
actual _switch_ is the thing with a square silvery outline and four
black circles, with its little button - with S on it - inside a little
square sleeve for some reason - which is actually pressed by that
transparent bit of plastic glued/fused to the back of the pushbutton.

However I did remove the button (with power symbol on
it ) and you're correct the switch was not aligned.

It looks like pink, white, blue, yellow and red or brown wires
to me and all have sleeves on them as you said. The yellow
and black wires terminate in the LED

I think there are _six_ wires altogether - two to each LED, and two to
the switch. As you say, black and yellow to the LED at the end (probably
the HDD-access LED - is there some symbol [usually looks like an old
drum drive!] on the case next to where it shines through, or it might
shine _through_ such a symbol?). I think it's white and pink (?) to the
LED in the middle of the assembly - the round white one that shines
through the pushbutton to show the power is on - and blue and the
remaining wire to the switch itself.

https://postimg.cc/m1DJD1G6

https://postimg.cc/N5vRQq7R

https://postimg.cc/9DqbJtpB

In the above three, especially the last one, I am pretty sure I can see
six wires - black, white, blue, yellow, and two reddish.

https://postimg.cc/V5pbDyH3

I saw the release tabs for the switch as well on the last picture
and I agree it doesn't look like it would take much squeezing to
release the switch assembly but as you say there really isn't much
point unless were going to identify the wires to shave.

Though having got this far I'd be inclined to do it just so I know! They
might be easier to release - or one pair might - by squeezing from below
rather than above. (But hopefully not important if everything's working
again anyway.)

As I said it needs the plunger(with power sign) with the clear
plastic arm that's attached to it so when depressed its that
clear plastic arm that actually activates the switch.

so you've come to the same conclusion I did as to what is the actual
switch.

In any case, I turned the computer off and then back on after
awhile and it started with no problem again. Granted, it's still

It only needs a momentary contact to signal the motherboard/power supply
to start. The only time it ever needs to make contact for longer is if
you were to turn the PC _off_ by holding in the power button, which
you'd normally only do if it has locked up and you can't tell it to shut
down from Windows.

early but hopefully my taking out the push button(with power symbol)

Hopefully. Another thing that occurs to me is that the square surround
of the actual switch pushbutton (the thing with the S on it) might have
become stiffer with time - is it rubbery?. If so, you might cut it back
a bit with a sharp knife, and/or put a dab of glue or something on the
bit of the clear plastic that actually presses the switch to build it up
(down) to give it a better chance of depressing the switch. (If you do
the latter, make sure it has set hard before reassembly - you don't want
unset glue around a switch!)

and then re-seating it may of fixed it but I'll continue to monitor it

"May of"? Shame on you (-:

and lets hope for the best.

Robert

Indeed.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I hate petitions, they're the modern-day equivalent of villagers with pitchforks and flaming torches. - Alison Graham RT 2016/2/20-26

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 at 07:50:42, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

"Paul" <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote

| That sounds fixed to me :-)
|
What a relief. But I know it won't be long
before Robert posts again in xp.general to ask why
the cover on his Win10 computer is loose... and it
will be another 100 posts in which he won't hesitate in
the slightest to waste your time.

I know what you're suggesting, but I think he's genuine, unlike he who
shall be nameless (or rather multi-named).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A biochemist walks into a student bar and says to the barman: "I'd like a pint of adenosine triphosphate, please." "Certainly," says the barman, "that'll be ATP." (Quoted in) The Independent, 2013-7-13 [UK-specific, and dated]

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I powered it on again today
and although it did take a
little time it did start.

I'll keep monitoring it but I
believe we've fixed it.

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote

| > What a relief. But I know it won't be long
| >before Robert posts again in xp.general to ask why
| >the cover on his Win10 computer is loose... and it
| >will be another 100 posts in which he won't hesitate in
| >the slightest to waste your time.
| >
| >
| I know what you're suggesting, but I think he's genuine, unlike he who
| shall be nameless (or rather multi-named).
|

Genuinely self-absorbed and genuinely shameless in
wasting other peoples' time. Maybe he's old and has
trouble concentrating? Fair enough. But that doesn't
justify lack of consideration.

Nevertheless, while you're here... I've been counting
the tines in my two toothbrushes. If I'm not mistaken
it's 120 in one and 116 in the other. Would you please
count all the tines in all your toothbrushes and post
a picture? I just want to make sure my count is in the
right ballpark. Thanks so much. :)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, 11 Feb 2022 at 11:15:08, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

I powered it on again today
and although it did take a
little time it did start.

I'll keep monitoring it but I
believe we've fixed it.

Thanks,
Robert

By "start", do you mean "the light in the pushbutton came on", or do you
mean desktop appeared on screen? There should be no delay to the first;
the second could be delayed by lots of things.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

How could you be expected to know that picnics were originally held indoors,
or that a slow loris has poisonous elbows?
- Sandi Toksvig on QI, in RT 2018/9/15-21

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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By start I mean the computer booted.
Sometimes I have to hold the button
down for awhile and sometimes it starts
immediately.

What had happened was that I was having to
hold it down for an abnormally long period of
time to start.

After I removed the plunger/push button (with
power symbol on it) from the top cover and then
replaced it, it may of re-seated it on the two pins
holding it and now works better.

It's better we didn't scrap the wires because they
all had sleeves and there's a good chance I may
have damaged them. Let hope it continues to work
without the problem returning.

In passing, I'm not a troll or whatever the implication.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I was wrong and too quick on the draw.
The problem came back. I shut it down
earlier and this last time was like before
and took an abnormally long time to boot.

I noticed that it had been taking longer and
longer to boot.

I think it revolves around the plunger(with power
symbol) with the clear plastic arm connecting to
the switch and for awhile it was. but for some
reason it isn't anymore.

I'm just guessing, but what do you think of
adding washers under the(2) pins where the
plunger slides down and is connected to the
top cover. Would that give it a better connection?

https://postimg.cc/vD15CGZv

https://postimg.cc/WdVrDr69

other than that I really don't know what to do
at this point to improve connection.

Thoughts/Suggestions
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/12/2022 11:39 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I was wrong and too quick on the draw.
The problem came back. I shut it down
earlier and this last time was like before
and took an abnormally long time to boot.

I noticed that it had been taking longer and
longer to boot.

I think it revolves around the plunger(with power
symbol) with the clear plastic arm connecting to
the switch and for awhile it was. but for some
reason it isn't anymore.

I'm just guessing, but what do you think of
adding washers under the(2) pins where the
plunger slides down and is connected to the
top cover. Would that give it a better connection?

https://postimg.cc/vD15CGZv

https://postimg.cc/WdVrDr69

other than that I really don't know what to do
at this point to improve connection.

Thoughts/Suggestions
Robert

There's five pages of nonsense here (disgruntled customer
posts mixed with repair suggestions).

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8700-power-button-does-not-work/td-p/5808419/page/2

I still don't understand what that plastic assembly is supposed
to achieve. It looks like there is an offset between where
the button operates and where the switch is placed.
If the plastic bends, then perhaps not enough force is
transferred to the switch.

Some people have replaced CMOS battery and power supply.
One other person convinced Dell Support to change the motherboard.

There is a report the Normally Open switch measures
15 ohms when it closes. Which is way too high for a
switch. The switch should be a fraction of an ohm when
it closes. Like 0.1 ohm or less.

A low CMOS battery has been known to stop a PC from posting.
but not every PC does that. This is a function of the SuperIO.
Some SuperIO have a battery channel and they check the voltage.
If the voltage drops too low, then even though sufficient +5V
is there to start a session, the stupid thing denies the request.

Sometimes a brand new CMOS battery can be defective. I bought a
defective one at the "Mall Battery Shop" -- presumably old stock.

Using a voltmeter on the 20 volt scale, the top of the CMOS
battery should read 3.1V with respect to chassis ground. Below
2.3V spells trouble. But for the SuperIO to block a switch
request, sometimes the battery has to be right down to zero.
And not all SuperIO are even equipped to do that. I've never
seen this response here, on my junk PCs with their dead CMOS
batteries.

A washer isn't going to help the problem, unless it
brings the switch, closer to whatever functions as a
plunger.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

One thing I will say whoever designed the case
could of made it allot easier to remove the top cover
without having to remove the optical drive.

The plunger (with power symbol) is designed as a spring
to depress so the clear plastic arm makes contact with the
switch. The top left and lower right holes are where it slides
down on pins of the top cover. The other hole (top right) is
a guide if I remember.

https://postimg.cc/WdVrDr69

Ok, how about for a start we change the battery? It just so
happens I have CR2032 battery still in the package, so change
it?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Ummmmm, I just read in the manual that if I change the battery
it will set my BIOS back to the default settings. So is it OK to do this?

I don't even know what my setting are or suppose to be? It said it hit F2
when I see the F2 on the screen after the Dell symbol to check my BIOS
So I restarted the computer but I didn't see any F2?

So what should I do?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/13/2022 10:30 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

Ummmmm, I just read in the manual that if I change the battery
it will set my BIOS back to the default settings. So is it OK to do this?

I don't even know what my setting are or suppose to be? It said it hit F2 when I see the F2 on the screen after the Dell symbol to check my BIOS
So I restarted the computer but I didn't see any F2?

So what should I do?

Robert

To answer that question, what have you changed in there ?

You've likely used SATA port controls at some point.
But running with one HDD and one DVD drive, the controls
could be back to default.

Other than that, it's boot order (optical drive, HDD).
Again, mostly default.

*******

My two PCs here have "bios profile save" and can restore
settings on demand. In the BIOS, I type "1" in the
restore field and hit return, it says "do you want to
reload profile", I click yes in there. That's the UEFI BIOS.

The only problem with "bios profile save", is the saved
info tends to be invalidated if you do a BIOS flash update.
Which hasn't happened on either machine.

The older machines don't have that. Restoring settings on
the year 2000 PC is actually a bit easier than some
of the others, but there are still some cryptic settings
you have to do manually.

*******

I measure the CMOS battery, to tell it is time to change
it. +3.1V is new, +2.3V or less is time-to-replace. The
red multimeter lead, touches the top of the battery case,
the black lead touches shiny conductive metal on the chassis.
That way, you can measure battery state, without removal.

All power should be off when you replace it.

the battery clips range from "Easy" to "Dastardly". You don't
want the battery flopping around all over the PCB if you can
help it. Unplugging the computer, ensures there is no live
+5VSB inside the PC.

The spent Panasonic I just checked, a magnetic wand picks it up.
The "+" should be visible from the outside, when it is installed.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

As I recall we tried to change to boot order to select the
optical drive but it didn't change the boot order but allowed me
to select the optical drive manually. Other than I can't think of
anything I've done.

This was when we were trying to get the Macrium cd's to load.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter.

Before changing the battery I was going to try and wait
till I saw the F12 on the screen and then click F2 to access
the BIOS but for some reason the F12 never showed and
went directly to the MBR where it counts down from 29
seconds before logging onto to the desktop.

Honestly, I don't remembering us changing anything on the
BIOS.

As I recall we tried to change to boot order to select the
optical drive but it didn't change the boot order but allowed me
to select the optical drive manually. Other than I can't think of
anything I've done.

Even if it sets things back to default that shouldn't hurt the
computer should it?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

btw I tried pressing F2 and it took me to the countdown screen
immediately. Maybe thats why the F12 doesn't show anymore?

So should I proceed and change the battery?

We should be able to change to BIOS if needed, correct?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

If I have to click F2 to change the BIOS then I have never
done anything.

The only F keys I've done is F12

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 20:39:30 -0800 (PST), Robert in CA
<magineer02@yahoo.com> wrote:

I was wrong and too quick on the draw.
The problem came back. I shut it down
earlier and this last time was like before
and took an abnormally long time to boot.

Del

I really ain't following this thread, but an old beef came up
reading just the Subject. It's this: why don't people get a backup
proggie the makes incremental backups of their C:? My
old-as-the-hills Acronis True Image has saved my butt literally
dozens of times over the years.

Why drive yourself crazy when you KNOW your C: is going to go nuts
time and again?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/13/2022 1:03 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

Unfortunately I don't have a multimeter.

Before changing the battery I was going to try and wait
till I saw the F12 on the screen and then click F2 to access
the BIOS but for some reason the F12 never showed and
went directly to the MBR where it counts down from 29
seconds before logging onto to the desktop.

Honestly, I don't remembering us changing anything on the
BIOS.

As I recall we tried to change to boot order to select the
optical drive but it didn't change the boot order but allowed me
to select the optical drive manually. Other than I can't think of
anything I've done.

Even if it sets things back to default that shouldn't hurt the
computer should it?

Robert

There is a countdown in modern Windows, if you have the
legacy (black) boot screen set up.

As Admin, this places the legacy boot screen, black with F8 option,
in place of the Modern Vista+ boot menu with square icons. This
menu counts down from 30, but you can also change that time
constant as well. The purpose of having this menu, was to make
it easier to access Safe Mode F8.

bcdedit /set {bootmgr} displaybootmenu True

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:12:02 -0600, sam@invalid.com wrote:

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:47:57 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

On 2/13/2022 2:06 PM, Cal@invalid.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 20:39:30 -0800 (PST), Robert in CA
<magineer02@yahoo.com> wrote:

I was wrong and too quick on the draw.
The problem came back. I shut it down
earlier and this last time was like before
and took an abnormally long time to boot.

Del

I really ain't following this thread, but an old beef came up
reading just the Subject. It's this: why don't people get a backup
proggie the makes incremental backups of their C:? My
old-as-the-hills Acronis True Image has saved my butt literally
dozens of times over the years.

Why drive yourself crazy when you KNOW your C: is going to go nuts
time and again?

He has backups.

What he doesn't have backups for is a Power Switch and custom harness
made by Dell. When simpler designs would have been perfectly adequate.

Dell always has to find the most difficult way to do everything.
Including BIOS settings. I have one, and it always leaves me
scratching my head, asking "what were they thinking". Most of
my working machines, are home built. The latest an AMD with an MSI mobo.

Paul

Well, as I said, I didn't read the main thread. As for Dell, I gave up
on them almost 2 decades ago when they kept sending me units that were >missing some of the extras I ordered, but kept trying to charge me for
them.. I keep it simple anymore. I have my comps built at a local
shop. That way, I get exactly what I ordered.

As you may have guessed, I ain't the tech type. :o)

Sorry 'bout the nym shift. Posted with the wrong Agent. :o(

- Cal@invalid.com -

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/13/2022 2:06 PM, Cal@invalid.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 20:39:30 -0800 (PST), Robert in CA
<magineer02@yahoo.com> wrote:

I was wrong and too quick on the draw.
The problem came back. I shut it down
earlier and this last time was like before
and took an abnormally long time to boot.

Del

I really ain't following this thread, but an old beef came up
reading just the Subject. It's this: why don't people get a backup
proggie the makes incremental backups of their C:? My
old-as-the-hills Acronis True Image has saved my butt literally
dozens of times over the years.

Why drive yourself crazy when you KNOW your C: is going to go nuts
time and again?

He has backups.

What he doesn't have backups for is a Power Switch and custom harness
made by Dell. When simpler designs would have been perfectly adequate.

Dell always has to find the most difficult way to do everything.
Including BIOS settings. I have one, and it always leaves me
scratching my head, asking "what were they thinking". Most of
my working machines, are home built. The latest an AMD with an MSI mobo.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 14:47:57 -0500, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
wrote:

On 2/13/2022 2:06 PM, Cal@invalid.com wrote:

On Sat, 12 Feb 2022 20:39:30 -0800 (PST), Robert in CA
<magineer02@yahoo.com> wrote:

I was wrong and too quick on the draw.
The problem came back. I shut it down
earlier and this last time was like before
and took an abnormally long time to boot.

Del

I really ain't following this thread, but an old beef came up
reading just the Subject. It's this: why don't people get a backup
proggie the makes incremental backups of their C:? My
old-as-the-hills Acronis True Image has saved my butt literally
dozens of times over the years.

Why drive yourself crazy when you KNOW your C: is going to go nuts
time and again?

He has backups.

What he doesn't have backups for is a Power Switch and custom harness
made by Dell. When simpler designs would have been perfectly adequate.

Dell always has to find the most difficult way to do everything.
Including BIOS settings. I have one, and it always leaves me
scratching my head, asking "what were they thinking". Most of
my working machines, are home built. The latest an AMD with an MSI mobo.

Paul

Well, as I said, I didn't read the main thread. As for Dell, I gave up
on them almost 2 decades ago when they kept sending me units that were
missing some of the extras I ordered, but kept trying to charge me for
them.. I keep it simple anymore. I have my comps built at a local
shop. That way, I get exactly what I ordered.

As you may have guessed, I ain't the tech type. :o)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

So am I OK to proceed and change the battery?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2022 at 00:28:36, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

I still don't understand what that plastic assembly is supposed
to achieve. It looks like there is an offset between where
the button operates and where the switch is placed.

Yes, there is. Because they wanted the button itself to light up when
the PC is on. But instead of using a switch with an LED in it - of which
there are many types - they used a standard cheap switch, and a normal
LED - and then went to this complicated design of gluing/fusing a little
spar to the bottom of the button. The button pushes against the top of
the LED (or its diffuser), doing nothing, with a side spar to press the
switch:

___BBB
## _^_ where ##___BBB is the button with its side spar.
SW /LED\ (The ___## part is the clear plastic side spar.)
|| | | <- wires (4 out of 6 - the others go to a different LED)
So when the button presses the switch, and the power comes on, the LED
shines ^ through the button (which has the international power symbol -
a circle and a line - transparent in it, the rest being black. The loopy
things at the side of the button are just a way of making the button -
cast as a one piece of black plastic, including those loopy bits -
springy, so the user thinks he's pressing on something with pushback.

If the plastic bends, then perhaps not enough force is
transferred to the switch.

Hence my suggestion that Robert adds a dob of glue - or anything - to
the bit of the spar (## above) that actually presses the switch.
[]

A washer isn't going to help the problem, unless it
brings the switch, closer to whatever functions as a
plunger.

Paul

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I'm the oldest woman on primetime not baking cakes.
- Anne Robinson, RT 2015/8/15-21

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Great, I changed the battery but now I can't change the year date
It's stuck on 2005 and gives short date and long dates.until
I can change it the computer doesn't work.

I put :

2/13/2022 - short date
February 13, 2022 - as the long date
whatever I put it doesn't like.

When I click the down arrow this is what it shows
For short date
M/d/yyyy
M/d/yy
MM/dd/yy
MM/dd/yyyy
yy-MM-dd
dd-MMM-yy

For long date:

dddd,MMMM dd, yyyyy
MMMM dd, yyyy
dddd, dd MMMM, yyyy
dd, MMMM, yyyy


how am I suppose to know why format to follow?

please help because now I can't even use the 8500


Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/14/2022 12:19 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

This is what I'm putting in which is exactly as their example
but it doesn't take

2/13/2022 - short date
Sunday February 13, 2022 - long date

and it rejects it. Yet that's how the examples show it but
it doesn't work.

So what do I do?

Robert

There's a control panel in Windows for that.

Control Panel : Date and Time : Internet Time : Change Settings

+---+
| X | Synchronize with an Internet time server
+---+
Server: time.windows.com Update Now button <====

Click the button. It could take five to ten seconds
for the operation to complete.

Do not panic, if the word "Error" occurs on the screen.
Just re-check the time and see that the issue is resolved.
The interface has various stupid things it does, and not
every error is an error.

There is more than one Internet time server. You do not
have to use that exact server, for it to work. There are
also the "pool" servers, where a machine in the pool is
picked at random to provide the time service.

Occasionally, there are time server outages, even time server
errors. I synched a machine once, and the time server was
off by 20 minutes.

GPS provides a very accurate time reference. If you have
a smartphone with GPS, it may be able to provide verification
that the Windows time is within a second of the correct value.
I'm not advocating somehow, for a smartphone, just pointing out
that "if you don't know what time it is", there is inadvertent
technology in the room to give very accurate answers. You may have
to stand outside, for the smartphone to see a constellation of
four GPS satellites. When I had my GPS running in the house,
by holding the receiver near the window, I could see two birds.
It could "see" seven birds, but the signal level was too low
on five of those. One bird was "green", strong signal, the
second bird was "yellow", the other five were "red" status.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I cannot click to your link because the 8500
wont connect to anything without the clock

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I don't understand it, I'm following the format to change
the date but each time it comes back and says 'One of more
of the characters of the Short Date format are invalid. Try
using different characters.

I'm following their exact formnat how can it be wrong?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

This is what I'm putting in which is exactly as their example
but it doesn't take

2/13/2022 - short date
Sunday February 13, 2022 - long date

and it rejects it. Yet that's how the examples show it but
it doesn't work.

So what do I do?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The 8500 is set to 2005 and I can't get it to change and until then
I don't have access to anything. I have tried numerous times but
none work.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

This should be a simple operation to change the year but its
not. Until I can change the year I'm dead in the water.

Please help

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

There's a control panel in Windows for that.

Control Panel : Date and Time : Internet Time : Change Settings

I have been using the Control panel >Clock, Language, and Region > Date
and Time > changing calendar settings. I have attempted to use the control panel several times to change the year from 2005 to 2022
but none have worked.

I have followed the example of the Customize Format Date tab but it doesn't work.

I'm trying to follow instructions but they don't seem to work.

I don't know what else to do?

Please help me change the date from 2005 to 2022


Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/14/2022 12:42 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I don't understand it, I'm following the format to change
the date but each time it comes back and says 'One of more
of the characters of the Short Date format are invalid. Try
using different characters.

I'm following their exact formnat how can it be wrong?

Administrator Command Prompt

date <=== the command for it

The Current date is: Mon 02/14/2022
Enter the new date: (mm-dd-yy) 02-14-22 <=== very hard to type this in
correctly the first time

That will set the numeric date at least.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Administrator Command Prompt

date <=== the command for it

The Current date is: Mon 02/14/2022
Enter the new date: (mm-dd-yy) 02-14-22 <=== very hard to type this in correctly the first time

That will set the numeric date at least.

Paul

I had to logon to the Admin Account because it couldn't switch
to the Admin CMD promp from the User Account.

I typed Date

then it said

The current date is Mon 02/14/2005
Enter the new date: <mm-dd-yy> I typed 02-14-22
and it came back with 'a required privilage is not held by the client.
and then gave me the command line.

C:\Users/Commander>

I did it exactly as you instructed and the same thing happened as
when I tried to go through the Control panel. Nothing is working.
Even though it should. What's going on here? I hope I haven't lost
the 8500 by changing the battery because nothing I do is restoring
the date.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Also, changing the battery did nothing and
is still hard to start but the bigger problem
now is getting the date back to 2022 on the
8500.


Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/14/2022 4:42 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

Administrator Command Prompt

date <=== the command for it

The Current date is: Mon 02/14/2022
Enter the new date: (mm-dd-yy) 02-14-22 <=== very hard to type this in
correctly the first time

That will set the numeric date at least.

Paul

I had to logon to the Admin Account because it couldn't switch
to the Admin CMD promp from the User Account.

I typed Date

then it said

The current date is Mon 02/14/2005
Enter the new date: <mm-dd-yy> I typed 02-14-22
and it came back with 'a required privilage is not held by the client.
and then gave me the command line.

C:\Users/Commander>

I did it exactly as you instructed and the same thing happened as
when I tried to go through the Control panel. Nothing is working.
Even though it should. What's going on here? I hope I haven't lost
the 8500 by changing the battery because nothing I do is restoring
the date.

Robert

It's possible this applies to other OSes as well.

"Windows 10 set time privilege missing"

https://social.technet.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/e4b338a8-110d-4cfb-9e6e-e0376de3d7f3/windows-10-set-time-privilege-missing?forum=win10itprogeneral

Since you are the Administrator, that eliminates some possibilities.
However, there is this one.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/you-cannot-change-system-time-if-realtimeisuniversal-registry-entry-is-enabled-in-windows-78cf9fbe-eeca-4b06-a67a-2dacdf5189f9

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Control\TimeZoneInformation
RealTimeIsUniversal DWORD 1

If you booted back and forth between Windows and Linux,
you would notice that the clock keeps getting screwed
up by a fixed number of hours. the time difference
is the difference between local time ("Eastern") and
UTC (Universal time).

Using the above registry key, happens when a user decides
to fix the Windows versus Linux issue permanently. You can
boot back and forth, and the time stops changing.

However, that setting isn't as "easy" as it looks. And
this failure to set the time, may be an example of that.

You could set RealTimeIsUniversal to 0, and retest.

Now, I don't even have that key, which implies that to
gain that one, it must be added to the registry, and
the registry does not come with it by default.

Anyway, have a look and see if that lines up.

I would be more willing to believe that you logged in
with an account which really isn't administrator.
You can do

whoami /user /priv

and get some idea whether the user is ordinary or elevated.
An ordinary user is around five lines maybe, an elevated
user maybe fifteen or sixteen lines of privileges.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I sorry it got messed up when I posted. I had everything in
neat columns for you to read. Why does it do that?


Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I logged on to the Administrator Account and entered
whoami /user /priv and this is what I got in return:

User name SID
dragon\commander S-1-5-21-800400232- XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (unless you need this number I prefer to keep it private)

Privileges Information

Privilege name Description State

SeShutdownPrivilege shut down the system Disabled
SeChangeNotifyPrivelege bypass trasverse checking Enabled
SeUndockPrivilege Remove computer from docking station Disabled
SeIncreaseWorking SetPrivilege Increase a process working set Disabled
SeTimeZonePrivilage Change the time zone Disabled


Boy I sure wish I could take pics or a screenshots!
It would make things allot easier so you could see
what I see but the 780 doesn't have any ports for the
flash card.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I put the screenshot on the Patriot key:

https://postimg.cc/kBQ0kFDg

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/14/2022 4:37 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I tried it again:

https://postimg.cc/SYy56jbf

Robert

There is only five lines of text in your picture. You did not use
"Run as Administrator" from the right-click menu when
running the Command Prompt window.

Once you elevate the Command Prompt window, the "date" command will work.

*******

This is an administrator-capable account. The sheer number of
items hints at the administrator powers. You can actually add a couple
more, but that isn't recommended.

Start : Run : cmd ["Run as Administrator"] <=== don't forget to elevate...

whoami /user /priv

USER INFORMATION
----------------

User Name SID
============= ==============================================
bluewave\bob S-1-5-21-1111111111-2222222222-3333333333-1001 1001 is a "regular account"...


PRIVILEGES INFORMATION
----------------------

Privilege Name Description ========================================= ==================================================================
SeIncreaseQuotaPrivilege Adjust memory quotas for a process SeSecurityPrivilege Manage auditing and security log SeTakeOwnershipPrivilege Take ownership of files or other objects
SeLoadDriverPrivilege Load and unload device drivers SeSystemProfilePrivilege Profile system performance SeSystemtimePrivilege Change the system time <=== admin group has this
SeProfileSingleProcessPrivilege Profile single process SeIncreaseBasePriorityPrivilege Increase scheduling priority SeCreatePagefilePrivilege Create a pagefile
SeBackupPrivilege Back up files and directories SeRestorePrivilege Restore files and directories SeShutdownPrivilege Shut down the system
SeDebugPrivilege Debug programs SeSystemEnvironmentPrivilege Modify firmware environment values SeChangeNotifyPrivilege Bypass traverse checking SeRemoteShutdownPrivilege Force shutdown from a remote system SeUndockPrivilege Remove computer from docking station SeManageVolumePrivilege Perform volume maintenance tasks SeImpersonatePrivilege Impersonate a client after authentication
SeCreateGlobalPrivilege Create global objects SeIncreaseWorkingSetPrivilege Increase a process working set SeTimeZonePrivilege Change the time zone SeCreateSymbolicLinkPrivilege Create symbolic links SeDelegateSessionUserImpersonatePrivilege Obtain an impersonation token for another user in the same session

*******

This user does not belong to the administrator group
or has not used "Run as Administrator". A "Guest" account might
be like this whether you try Run as Administrator or not. This
person cannot set the date with the "Date" command.

whoami /user /priv

USER INFORMATION
----------------

User Name SID
============= ==============================================
bluewave\bob S-1-5-21-1111111111-2222222222-3333333333-1001


PRIVILEGES INFORMATION
----------------------

Privilege Name Description
============================= ==================================== SeShutdownPrivilege Shut down the system
SeChangeNotifyPrivilege Bypass traverse checking
SeUndockPrivilege Remove computer from docking station SeIncreaseWorkingSetPrivilege Increase a process working set SeTimeZonePrivilege Change the time zone

*******

Items pasted into a posting get messed up, because
you cannot see the "tab" characters that have been
inserted.

*******

The "real administrator" account is irrelevant, and it is not
recommended to run with it. Account 500 is "hot stuff". None of my
OS installs have this turned on. The list of privs matches the
above administrator-group set.

whoami /user /priv

USER INFORMATION
----------------

User Name SID
============= ============================================== bluewave\administrator S-1-5-21-1111111111-2222222222-3333333333-500

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I tried it again:

https://postimg.cc/SYy56jbf

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I don;t know what happen but anyway what I was saying is
when I typed the command it took me to the Windows
Explorer page not the C: prompt.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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This is the menu I get when I right click

https://postimg.cc/K49S7XJr

As you can see there is no option to Run as Administrator.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I seem to remember before when I typed cmd it gave the option to
'Run as Administrator'.

In any case, because I couldn't get it to elevate on the User Account
I did switch to the Admin Account and try the command there. I
thought I should let you know after reading your warning not to do it.

So what am I doing wrong? I typed the command as you instructed but it
takes me to the

Robert



.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I tried it but it doesn't work? What am I missing?

https://postimg.cc/Kknr5yPG

https://postimg.cc/ZC18XRwb

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/14/2022 7:06 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

This is the menu I get when I right click

https://postimg.cc/K49S7XJr

As you can see there is no option to Run as Administrator.

Robert

https://www.windowspasswordsrecovery.com/images/knowledge/turn-off-password-expiration-windows7/run-command-prompt-as-administrator.jpg

When you type "cmd" in the Windows 7 run box,
a tall white column with search results appears,
extending the run box to a kind of window.

There will be one word at the top

cmd

Right click that, and the context menu with
"Run as Administrator" appears on the right.

Use the "Run as Administrator" item to start
cmd in administrator group mode.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Success !

https://postimg.cc/7GGW7Nn3

Now we'll monitor the 8500 to see if the battery helped or not.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I should of thought of right clicking cmd,.. I'll
remember from now on.

Although it has nothing to do with the 8500
I noticed I couldn't log in to hotmail on the 780
even though I had the password written in front
of me. I tried several times thinking I messed up
but nothing.

Yet now that I've got the 8500 up and running it
logged in with no problem because it used cookies
so I didn't have to type. Still I should have been able
to login in on the 780. Strange,.... and I was able to
log in my bank account OK

Still I don't want to distract from the 8500 until we know
it starts reliably.

Many thanks for your help and patience.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Ta da!

https://postimg.cc/8jPL0zx3

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/14/2022 9:46 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I should of thought of right clicking cmd,.. I'll
remember from now on.

Although it has nothing to do with the 8500
I noticed I couldn't log in to hotmail on the 780
even though I had the password written in front
of me. I tried several times thinking I messed up
but nothing.

Yet now that I've got the 8500 up and running it
logged in with no problem because it used cookies
so I didn't have to type. Still I should have been able
to login in on the 780. Strange,.... and I was able to
log in my bank account OK

Still I don't want to distract from the 8500 until we know
it starts reliably.

Many thanks for your help and patience.

Robert

I'm the last person to be giving advice on these "free"
mail accounts.

I got locked out of one, and didn't have 2FA recovery set up.
By waiting six months, it got turned back on :-)

When you're using Hotmail on the 8500, look in the web interface
for a "logout" option. What that should do, is remove the token
from the browser.

Then, go over to the 780 and try logging into Hotmail there.

You might also review the Hotmail inbox, and see if there
are any messages about "password changed" or the like. If the
account is hacked, it could be the token on the 8500 is the
only thing keeping you connected to the account -- the "bad"
response on the 780 then, is a "warning" that maybe the
account is hacked.

And that's the problem with the way they run these things.
All the "thinking" and "pondering" is left to the end user,
the end user never knowing what's going to happen next. And if
you're mistaken in any conclusion you reached, all the
responsibility is on your shoulders, because there is no
tech support.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hmmm I never thought of that. Ok.. I'll check out the Hotmail
logout and messages but what if I logout and can't log back in
on the 8500?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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By logging off Hotmail do you mean signing off? If so,
I always do that and come to think of it I get very few
emails on there. I keep two email accounts and the hotmail
is primarily for family and friends. The other email account
is more business oriented and I have no problem logging into
that.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Also should I synchronize the computer via your link?
Since we just got the 8500 up and running I thought I
would ask before I click on it

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/15/2022 9:33 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

Also should I synchronize the computer via your link?
Since we just got the 8500 up and running I thought I
would ask before I click on it

Robert

As long as you're running the Admin account, it should work.

Since the time thing likes to throw errors, only certain
of the error messages would indicate a real problem.

To verify sync, check this page.

https://nist.time.gov

There is a black rectangle on the right hand side

"Your clock is off by:
+0.820 s"

The web page does not always work right, so if the black
rectangle is not sensible-looking, that's normal. Trying
later, may find it in a better mood.

And that's how you find the current offset error
on your setup. After a sync, the error should be low.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2022 at 01:45:02, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

Also, changing the battery did nothing and
is still hard to start

In what way "hard to start" - you have to waggle the button a lot (or something) before you get any sign of life (light comes on, fans start),
or do those happen but it takes a long time to boot?

but the bigger problem
now is getting the date back to 2022 on the
8500.

Robert

If using the "date" command ("time" ditto) from an elevated-privilege
cmd prompt really isn't working, then you can set it in the BIOS; you'll
have to get into the BIOS, which you do by pressing a certain key
(common ones are the Delete key, or one of the F keys) more or less as
soon as you turn the PC on. (It might tell you on screen what to press.) Googling suggests it's the F2 key, and to just keep pressing it as soon
as you turn the PC on.

Once in the BIOS, I can't direct you to where the time setting is as
BIOSes vary, but it shouldn't be hard to find. [It's probably in US
format only in there - month day year.]

https://www.manua.ls/dell/xps-8500/manual seems to be the whole manual.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

There should be a place on the ballot paper for 'None of the above', and if enough people filled that in, the system might start to change. - Jeremy
Paxman in RT, 2014/1/25-31

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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The date is reset

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I tried it, pretty cool.

https://postimg.cc/rzxZ0sgT

I tried the link but it doesn't work it gave me this
error page.

https://postimg.cc/9zw0G5qC

I was afraid of this; the computer was hard to start again
so changing the battery didn't have any effect. I think I need
to monitor it for a day or two and see how it starts because
sometimes it starts right up and others I have to hold the plunger
(with power symbol on it) down for some time before it starts
up.

What do you think it could be?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/15/2022 5:48 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I tried it, pretty cool.

https://postimg.cc/rzxZ0sgT

I tried the link but it doesn't work it gave me this
error page.

https://postimg.cc/9zw0G5qC

I was afraid of this; the computer was hard to start again
so changing the battery didn't have any effect. I think I need
to monitor it for a day or two and see how it starts because
sometimes it starts right up and others I have to hold the plunger
(with power symbol on it) down for some time before it starts
up.

What do you think it could be?

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

Just the NIST web page, measured the time.

The time.windows.gov server only responds on the NTP (Network Time Protocol) port.

*******

Do you know where the LAN status LEDs are located ?

LED LED (could be yellow, green)
_______
/ \
| RJ45 |
+-------+

Where the RJ45 plugs in, are a couple LEDs.

Assuming you have a broadband modem/router, there's
a cable going into that port.

There are two cases to consider:

Push power button, fans start, LAN LEDs are off == jammed RESET signal

Push power button, fans do not start == problem with PS_ON# signal

The perfectly normal case is:

Push power button, fans start, LAN LEDs at least one lights up (negotiation complete)

Jammed RESET signal, root causes might be:

Power_Good signal (from PSU, from VCore) is negated (bad PSU, bad mobo)
All the Power_Good indicators (multiple of them) have to all assert.

Backfeed logic is leaking into something, preventing RESET from cycling properly.
In one case, disconnecting a VGA cable from a PC, caused "normal" behavior to return.
Very hard to debug. Backfeed is custom designed by each designer, no two alike.
If a backfeed cut path fails to cut, current leaks in. (Sometimes a google, finds
a common theme, indicating a defective design rather than a component failure.)

PS_ON# signal root causes:

Driver blown on mobo - driver chip no longer makes a solid logic zero.
The failure rate on these is just ridiculous... and makes no sense.

PSU PS_ON# receiver not working - this is not a conventional logic gate!
It's going to be a transistor circuit of some sort. It should only
take 2mA of sinking capability to operate PS_ON#. There could be 10K pullup
on PSU, 10K pullup on mobo, both pulled to +5VSB.

Problem could also be "loose PSU connector", but the
connector has a latch and cannot thermally walk out of its mate.
Both the 2x2 and the 2x12 connectors have latches, as restraints.

It's the standard mess... could be PSU, could be mobo, could
be some bit of wire.

*******

Some DELL PSUs have a test function. Check the manual.

*******

But, the first step is observing the LAN LED and making careful
notes of what you see.

The other debugs require minimum of a multimeter. For max debug, I
don't have the equipment here for that. To debug backfeed, you
really need a schematic, as the circuit is spaghetti and goes
all over the place.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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There's a green light on back panel and on the
front panel there's the white indicator lights
(from the switch).

Where the RJ45 plugs in, its an orange light.

https://postimg.cc/5YpwPzsC

https://postimg.cc/K1Zmbgfz

https://postimg.cc/305HcyW3

The only VGA cable I have is for the monitor.

I checked the Manual but could find no PSU test function.

https://postimg.cc/Z9vbszjF

Unfortunately when I bought the 8500 Dell and
I suspect all other computer manufactures stopped
including manuals, OS recovery disks, etc and
schematics.

I remember when I bought my Dell 8200 it had
everything; manuals, disks, cables and more some
of which I never used and saved everything from
it.

We do have the spare PSU's if if should come to it
although I dread the thought of replacing all those
cables. I suppose do them one by one but still its daunting.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPNkRx9_Lyg

If the problem persists or gets worst can we not just
use a third party switch/button and connect it to the
pins as he did? I'm not sure whether this replaces the
plunger (with power symbol on it) also?

I won't have the $ till the 23rd to buy anything but if you
think that's a viable way to go can you suggest a switch
to buy?

If we can just bypass the problem then lets do that.

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/16/2022 12:43 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I found this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPNkRx9_Lyg

If the problem persists or gets worst can we not just
use a third party switch/button and connect it to the
pins as he did? I'm not sure whether this replaces the
plunger (with power symbol on it) also?

I won't have the $ till the 23rd to buy anything but if you
think that's a viable way to go can you suggest a switch
to buy?

If we can just bypass the problem then lets do that.

Thanks,
Robert

What you buy, depends on your skill level.

You've seen the variable prices for the wiring harness
(the part number begins with F and has four other characters).

If you can gain access to the nylon 2x6 shell (the part that
plugs into the motherboard), you may be able to make an
electrical connection there. If the shell has the plastic tab
that lifts up with a hobby knife, you can slide the wire and
pin out. But that does not guarantee there is sufficient space
to be wiring anything up. That remains a "possibility" with
no guarantee.

And all you need to test, is an SPST NO push button switch to
put in parallel with the SPST NO push button switch which is
already there. Depending on the intended soldering target,
they can be arranged like this.

1 ----+ / +---- 3 Connect to 1 and 3 if you want
| / |
+------+ +-------+
| |
2 ----+ +---- 4

The reason the switches can have the four legs, is for mechanical
fixing to the surface.

For solder-tail switches, two legs is plenty.
Solder-tail switches screw to the chassis with a retaining ring.

To mount excess hardware on a computer, you can use a slot cover
for a PCI slot, as a substrate. If you have spares of those,
you can drill holes in them and mount stuff (like switches).

Using a 5.25" tray kit, you can also mount hardware on the
front of the computer, using an empty optical drive bay if
one is available.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Well, my skill level is I have the soldering iron and
solder so I would need to practice if I'm going to have
to solder.

I didn't realize it had to be soldered on. I thought it
just slid down on the pins.

I have to check around to see if I have any slot covers
that would fit the 8500.

Yes, I do have a empty optical drive bay. Maybe that the
easiest way to do this. Would I still be required to
solder?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I forgot to mention that the 8500 was hard to start
again today. I'm afraid one of these times it won't start
at all. As such, I think I'm going to leave it on the rest
of the day.

I think we can proceed that its its pretty well shot with
regards to starting normally like the 780. I mean when I
press the plunger it should start immediately but it doesn't
I have to hold it in forever before it starts and more than
one attempt.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

As far as slot covers why couldn't we use the existing
ones with perforations?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 2/16/2022 6:41 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

As far as slot covers why couldn't we use the existing
ones with perforations?

Robert

Sure, you can do that.

I prefer solid metal if making mods. For a perforated
metal surface, it would have to "align" with my plan,
to suit the job.

AS for the cable end, the connector has removable crimp
pins. Further down the page, you can see a breakaway strip
of crimp pins, and the author of the article is laying a
wire into the crimp area of one of the pins, before using a crimp tool.

https://www.cycfi.com/how-to-make-and-repair-pin-header-cables/

You cannot make the diameter of what the crimp pin carries,
so large that it no longer fits through the square hole in
the header. Doing the job, solely with crimp pins, depends
on the relative size of the wires. The back of the crimp pin
has the "dimple" of metal, that helps it lock into place,
with respect to the bendy plastic tab on each shell pin hole.

You can also see how they cut the wire and added some wire
to extend it. And you could also use a technique like that.

I know you're not ideally located near an electronics store.
I had a grand total of one electronics store here, and I could
go down there and pick up just the right diameter of
Polyolefin heat shrink tubing for a repair job (must be 2x the
diameter of the solder blob you're trying to cover up). Rather
than use sticky electrical tape (which falls off). But now that
my electronics store is gone, There's no more in-person
shopping. Which raises the cost of repair, considerably.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 at 13:31:27, Robert in CA <magineer02@yahoo.com>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

I forgot to mention that the 8500 was hard to start
again today. I'm afraid one of these times it won't start
at all. As such, I think I'm going to leave it on the rest
of the day.

You've mentioned similar a few times.

This doesn't sound like it's the switch at fault to me: If you have to
just hold it in, not waggle it or anything, then it sounds like it's not
the switch at fault, but the signalling in the motherboard/PSU
combination.

I think we can proceed that its its pretty well shot with
regards to starting normally like the 780. I mean when I
press the plunger it should start immediately but it doesn't

Yes, just a dab at the plunger ought to work.

I have to hold it in forever before it starts and more than
one attempt.

Robert

I've seen your other posts about just fitting another switch, maybe
mounted somewhere else on the PC case, such as in a spare drive bay or something. But, given that to do that, you'd have to wire it in
_somehow_ - either to the two wires that go to the existing switch, or
to where those wires go at the motherboard header - I'd go for shaving
those wires so you can try shorting them with something first, to see if
that works, before going to the bother of (acquiring and) fitting the alternative switch. If you just shave along the wires with a sharp
knife, you ought to be able to expose the conductors without breaking
the wires - and, you'd have to do something with them if you replaced
the switch anyway, so it's worth the risk IMO. If you _can_ expose the
wires enough to short them with something, then: if that reliably starts
the PC, then you know it _is_ the switch at fault, and can go ahead and
replace it (or the whole switch-and-two-LEDs module); if it _doesn't_,
then replacing the switch isn't going to fix the problem, and you're
going to have to look elsewhere. My guess would be the power supply -
and since you've got a spare one, you can change that (as you say, one connector at a time to make sure you don't miss one [_don't_ try to
actually _run_ it with both though!]).
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Old soldiers never die - only young ones

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I just realized that using the pci slots isn't viable
for a switch as I have to move the computer to get
access to the rear. I also didn't realize I would be
crimping either or heat shrinking. This sounds beyond
what I can do. Maybe we better stick to soldering.

I hope we can use the spare front optical tray (lower 5)

https://postimg.cc/5HTpWG38

I read John's post and he still wants to short the wires
to determine whether its the switch or not. What do
you think?

As you say, the only reason to take the switch out is to
identify which wires need to be shorted. So should I
remove the switch so you can do that?

https://postimg.cc/ts5Wzcw9

https://postimg.cc/rdwWZJ2x

https://postimg.cc/Zvpyvs6t

Then should we try shorting it? Maybe there's some bare
wire at the end of the sleeves so I won't have to scrap the
wire? At least it would confirm whether its the switch
or PSU.

What do you think?

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/17/2022 2:03 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

I just realized that using the pci slots isn't viable
for a switch as I have to move the computer to get
access to the rear. I also didn't realize I would be
crimping either or heat shrinking. This sounds beyond
what I can do. Maybe we better stick to soldering.

I hope we can use the spare front optical tray (lower 5)

https://postimg.cc/5HTpWG38

I read John's post and he still wants to short the wires
to determine whether its the switch or not. What do
you think?

As you say, the only reason to take the switch out is to
identify which wires need to be shorted. So should I
remove the switch so you can do that?

https://postimg.cc/ts5Wzcw9

https://postimg.cc/rdwWZJ2x

https://postimg.cc/Zvpyvs6t

Then should we try shorting it? Maybe there's some bare
wire at the end of the sleeves so I won't have to scrap the
wire? At least it would confirm whether its the switch
or PSU.

What do you think?

Robert

If there is sufficient space and slack in the harness,
to work on it, I don't see a problem with your plan.

You would be cutting a wire on the switch, and adding
a wire off to the side, for a test connection.

-------X------- Cut a switch wire into two pieces, strip the ends

X X X Join a third wire by twisting all three
X X X together and soldering.
------X X X---------
|
|
|A

You would do that to two wires total. Then, touch "A" to "B"
instead of pushing the button on top of the case.

X X X Join a third wire by twisting all three
X X X together and soldering.
------X X X---------
|
|
|B

Dressing the wires will be a bit of a challenge.
Maybe 3/8th inch shrink tubing and bring two of the
wires out one end of the shrink tube, one wire out
the other end, will "linearize" the exposed area
so the shrink will cover it.

You still have to figure out what the two wires colors
are on the switch, so you can figure out where "A" and "B" go.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hmmm I watched the video again and they
make it look easy but I know it never works
out that way.

I suppose I could try and do it but you would
have to show me which pin connector to order.

That's of course when we order a new switch
and like I said we have to think about a tray
mounted front switch instead and maybe try
shorting the switch first.


Thanks
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I've decided not to short the switch because it
accomplishes nothing except as a test and I could
cause further damage.

Instead we'll replace the switch and if that isn't it
then we'll know it's the PSU. Its allot safer this way.

Thanks,
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I decided shorting won't solve anything and would
probably cause further damage knowing my bad luck.

So lets proceed with a switch,.... but what to buy?

Question: they don't make a switch with the 4 pin
connectors already on it? Is it possible to get a
solenoid switch with 4 pin connector already
attached?

If I have to buy the connector and crimp the pins I
guess I can do that.

When you say add a third wire, in the link they split
the ground wire into two one for each. Is that what
you mean? It sounds easy but I bet its hard to do I
would think.

So if understand it; I strip the wire, then crimp it
and then you want me to solder it? OK

Are you saying you want me to remove the switch
so you can see where the wires go?


Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I took the switch out and flipped it over so
you could see where the wires go:

old pics:

https://postimg.cc/R6jYT09z

https://postimg.cc/9z7KQytX

https://postimg.cc/ZCzgB0V8

new pics

https://postimg.cc/TysNRPKW

https://postimg.cc/SYFZMt7S

https://postimg.cc/crW912LT

https://postimg.cc/cv4Fw3Yn

https://postimg.cc/kV2whdTM

https://postimg.cc/CR14zgTC

https://postimg.cc/21K7WKrs

https://postimg.cc/rdRCNNpK

https://postimg.cc/RJ479rLH

https://postimg.cc/BtByF4yR

https://postimg.cc/21VXgv6f

https://postimg.cc/8JByLmyL

In passing, the 8500 was easier to start when I put it back together.
It didn't start immediately but I didn't have to hold the plunger down
for very long.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/17/2022 8:00 PM, Robert in CA wrote:

I took the switch out and flipped it over so
you could see where the wires go:

old pics:

https://postimg.cc/R6jYT09z assembly, net to ODD

https://postimg.cc/9z7KQytX closeup, showing plunger offset to switch

https://postimg.cc/ZCzgB0V8

new pics

https://postimg.cc/TysNRPKW black/yellow front LED

https://postimg.cc/SYFZMt7S

https://postimg.cc/crW912LT

https://postimg.cc/cv4Fw3Yn

https://postimg.cc/kV2whdTM

https://postimg.cc/CR14zgTC

https://postimg.cc/21K7WKrs

https://postimg.cc/rdRCNNpK

https://postimg.cc/RJ479rLH red/white switch LED, brown/blue switch

https://postimg.cc/BtByF4yR

https://postimg.cc/21VXgv6f

https://postimg.cc/8JByLmyL

In passing, the 8500 was easier to start when I put it back together.
It didn't start immediately but I didn't have to hold the plunger down
for very long.

Robert

That sort of sounds like a capacitor that is affecting some timing.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

How do you suggest we proceed?

I'm going to try turning the 8500 on/off after the SuperAntiSpyware
scan finishes to see if it starts up as easily or better as last time.

Hmm if it's a capacitor that's getting too involved for me and I have no
way of testing it other than visual.

btw, can I cut a bookmark folder and put it on a patriot key then paste it back? just curious.

Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Boy there sure is allot to bookmarks!

I powered the 8500 off/on again and it started as before, not
immediately but I didn't have to hold the plunger down for
a long time.

If it were a capacitor wouldn't the symptoms remain the same?
e.g. not get better? So in this case, after I opened and closed the
case to remove the switch somehow it improved it. At least
temporarily to better than it was before where I had to hold the
plunger in forever.

We can still replace the switch if you show me what kind? can't
we buy a tray power switch with the 4 pin connector already
attached?

what about something like these?

https://www.newegg.com/p/1B4-001S-00ET0?Description=power%20switch&cm_re=power_switch-_-1B4-001S-00ET0-_-Product&quicklink=true

https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16812201029?Description=power%20switch&cm_re=power_switch-_-12-201-029-_-Product

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/18/2022 12:30 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

How do you suggest we proceed?

I'm going to try turning the 8500 on/off after the SuperAntiSpyware
scan finishes to see if it starts up as easily or better as last time.

Hmm if it's a capacitor that's getting too involved for me and I have no
way of testing it other than visual.

btw, can I cut a bookmark folder and put it on a patriot key then paste it back? just curious.

Robert

For Bookmarks, there is the Export function.

I don't really know if the browser, even pays attantion,
if you fiddle the bookmarks.jsonlz4 at all. I'm not aware
of what the "recovery" option is, to tell the browser to
"go back to Thursday", because that's what the intention of
it looks like. It's just that I've never used the function
in anger, and don't know any operational details.

This says there is supposed to be a menu that appears under "Restore".
With dates of the currently-captured jsonlz4 files in that folder.

https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/restore-bookmarks-from-backup-or-move-them

So using the "Restore" function, is how you convert a jsonlz4 back
into an internal bookmarks representation.

The "Export" and "Import" functions are for "humans". The jsonlz4
is the tool-provided method, to process the unreadable backup
files.

I have a short program to convert an LZ4 and it just uses a
lz4.dll from the Firefox build or something. But that doesn't
do a thing for the json part of it. That just makes the file
suitable so you can look at it in Notepad.

Part of the reason the file can get large, is there are BASE64
encoded icons in there. A bookmark might be 160 characters,
while the tiny icon could be 1024 characters. And the icon
presentation makes it hard to read the file, for a human in
Notepad.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/18/2022 2:12 AM, Robert in CA wrote:

Boy there sure is allot to bookmarks!

I powered the 8500 off/on again and it started as before, not
immediately but I didn't have to hold the plunger down for
a long time.

If it were a capacitor wouldn't the symptoms remain the same?
e.g. not get better? So in this case, after I opened and closed the
case to remove the switch somehow it improved it. At least
temporarily to better than it was before where I had to hold the
plunger in forever.

We can still replace the switch if you show me what kind? can't
we buy a tray power switch with the 4 pin connector already
attached?

what about something like these?

https://www.newegg.com/p/1B4-001S-00ET0?Description=power%20switch&cm_re=power_switch-_-1B4-001S-00ET0-_-Product&quicklink=true

https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16812201029?Description=power%20switch&cm_re=power_switch-_-12-201-029-_-Product

Thoughts/suggestions?
Robert

The first one might be two LEDs and a power switch.

But the mechanical details may not be the same as the 8500, so
the plunger would not be in the same place. You could take the assembly
apart, as a source of raw materials.

*******

The benefit of the second one, is it's a switch with a 1x2 connector.
Which would be good in a PC which uses four 1x2 connectors and you just
needed to repair one of the four functions. However, all your FP wiring
is in a single 2xN connector, which is inconvenient for servicing.
*If* the plastic on the connector has lift-able plastic tabs, which
allow pulling the wire out of the hole, then you can do repairs on it.

You have to verify the header type. Pin header connectors can be on 0.1" spacing or on 2mm spacing. The 0.1" spacing type, might fit over 0.050"
square gold-plated pins. All the details have to be right, to be mixing
and matching. The 2mm ones might fit over a smaller pin.

There's some caliper-work involved when working on pin headers.
I don't even have a good collection of materials for "working on just anything". I've got a half dozen fan header bits and pieces, but next
to nothing for 0.1" spacing connectors.

*******

https://www.dell.com/community/XPS-Desktops/XPS-8700-power-button-broke/td-p/5761325

"Dell part F7M7N power button was used in the following system models -

2010 XPS 8300
2012 XPS 8500
2013 XPS 8700
"

At least that way, all the work is done for you. And perhaps a good
deal... as long as the item is new. You don't want a part that is
as worn out as yours. It should not be a "pull" from an old system.

Paul

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)