• Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Portage einfo, elog... output format change

    From Wolfgang E. Sanyer@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 17:50:04 2021
    I love it - this is similar to the xorg log output, and i think it makes
    the portage output much cleaner and easier to read.

    El mar., 28 de septiembre de 2021 11:36 a. m., Michał Górny < mgorny@gentoo.org> escribió:

    Hi, everyone.

    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    The primary problem with the current output format is that different
    kinds of messages differ only in color. This makes them
    indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep. ago's been asking
    for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what motivated me to do this.

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs. For example,
    instead of:

    * some message
    * other message
    * hell if i know what this is

    You get:

    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    Example screenshot:

    https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny





    <div dir="auto">I love it - this is similar to the xorg log output, and i think it makes the portage output much cleaner and easier to read.</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">El mar., 28 de septiembre de 2021 11:36 a. m.
    , Michał Górny &lt;<a href="mailto:mgorny@gentoo.org">mgorny@gentoo.org</a>&gt; escribió:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, everyone.<br>

    I know I&#39;m going to regret asking this... but I&#39;ve prepared a change to<br>
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion<br>
    than internally in Portage team.<br>

    The primary problem with the current output format is that different<br>
    kinds of messages differ only in color.  This makes them<br>
    indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep.  ago&#39;s been asking<br> for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what<br> motivated me to do this.<br>

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors<br>
    and strings.  This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs.  For example,<br> instead of:<br>

     * some message<br>
     * other message<br>
     * hell if i know what this is<br>

    You get:<br>

    [WW] some message<br>
    [EE] other message<br>
    [QA] hell if i know what this is<br>

    I&#39;ve also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,<br> and ewarn from eqawarn.  Then, I&#39;ve replaced most of &#39;&gt;&gt;&gt;&#39; and &#39;!!!&#39;<br>
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned. <br>
    The &#39;zings&#39; used for merging files remain three-character, so now it&#39;s<br>
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.<br>

    The PR doing this is: <a href="https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759</a><br>

    Example screenshot:<br>
    <a href="https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png</
    <br>

    -- <br>
    Best regards,<br>
    Michał Górny<br>



    </blockquote></div>

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 17:40:02 2021
    Hi, everyone.

    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    The primary problem with the current output format is that different
    kinds of messages differ only in color. This makes them
    indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep. ago's been asking
    for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what
    motivated me to do this.

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs. For example,
    instead of:

    * some message
    * other message
    * hell if i know what this is

    You get:

    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    Example screenshot: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

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  • From Ulrich Mueller@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 18:30:02 2021
    On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Michał Górny wrote:

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs.

    Using the same markers as Xorg (especially [--]) but with different
    meaning may be confusing though. Xorg has these:

    Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,
    (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
    (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.

    So, maybe change einfo from [--] to [II]?

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to Ulrich Mueller on Tue Sep 28 18:50:02 2021
    On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 18:26 +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Michał Górny wrote:

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using
    colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs.

    Using the same markers as Xorg (especially [--]) but with different
    meaning may be confusing though. Xorg has these:

        Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting,     (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
        (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.

    So, maybe change einfo from [--] to [II]?

    Nah, the whole point is to avoid letters since it's not very important. Alternatively to '[--]' I could make it look down '[..]' or maybe even
    without eyes entirely '[ ]'.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

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  • From Ulrich Mueller@21:1/5 to All on Tue Sep 28 19:30:01 2021
    On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Michał Górny wrote:

    On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 18:26 +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
        Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default setting, >>     (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
        (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.

    So, maybe change einfo from [--] to [II]?

    Nah, the whole point is to avoid letters since it's not very important. Alternatively to '[--]' I could make it look down '[..]' or maybe even without eyes entirely '[ ]'.

    Yeah, anything but [--]. The version with the dots is nice.

    Ulrich

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  • From Hank Leininger@21:1/5 to Ulrich Mueller on Wed Sep 29 01:20:01 2021
    On 2021-09-28, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
    On Tue, 28 Sep 2021, Michał Górny wrote:
    On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 18:26 +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
    Markers: (--) probed, (**) from config file, (==) default
    setting,
    (++) from command line, (!!) notice, (II) informational,
    (WW) warning, (EE) error, (NI) not implemented, (??) unknown.

    So, maybe change einfo from [--] to [II]?

    Nah, the whole point is to avoid letters since it's not very
    important.
    Alternatively to '[--]' I could make it look down '[..]' or maybe even without eyes entirely '[ ]'.

    Yeah, anything but [--]. The version with the dots is nice.

    I think any change from only-color would be an improvement; mgorny's
    first version looks nice.

    I can see why symmetry with Xorg EE, WW, etc. has an appeal but also the downsides of a) since things don't actually line up 1:1 it could be
    misleading to try; b) it's also somewhat language-biased.

    Something a lot of tools have started doing is [?] prefixes to their
    output; I don't know if there's even a semi-formal spec on it, but what
    seems to me to map well would be:

    [!] fatal error (die / eerror?)
    [*] important but nonfatal (ewarn?)
    [+] info, maybe memorable, but not harmful (elog?)
    [.] status/verbose message (einfo?)

    Could double that if preserving a 4-char-wide tag is preferred.

    That doesn't cover all needed, like eqawarn, but there are more to
    choose from.

    It's unfortunate that many of these are regex metacharacters, making
    slightly more (human) overhead when grepping, but we already have that
    with the [] delimeters.

    or maybe even without eyes entirely '[ ]'.

    For no reason I can articulate, the empty one bugs me. I would get over
    it though ;)

    Thanks,

    --

    Hank Leininger <hlein@korelogic.com>
    9606 3BF9 B593 4CBC E31A A384 6200 F6E3 781E 3DD7

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  • From A Schenck@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 30 00:00:01 2021
    --TtfcyfJn9WrNCKNC4QXVIxacdjpLPXFTs
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Language: en-US

    On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
    Hi, everyone.

    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    The primary problem with the current output format is that different
    kinds of messages differ only in color. This makes them
    indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep. ago's been asking
    for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what motivated me to do this.

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs. For example,
    instead of:

    * some message
    * other message
    * hell if i know what this is

    You get:

    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed.
    10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original
    impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the
    point it could replace parsing the output.

    It wouldn't be worth blocking progress for one application that not many
    people use, but assuming there are others that will also break with this change. Are we sure there's no way to support ago's (very valuable) work without breaking other things?

    -A


    The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    Example screenshot: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png



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  • From Francesco Riosa@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 30 01:00:02 2021
    Il giorno mer 29 set 2021 alle ore 23:52 A Schenck <lane_andrew@hotmail.com>
    ha scritto:

    On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
    Hi, everyone.

    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    The primary problem with the current output format is that different
    kinds of messages differ only in color. This makes them
    indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep. ago's been asking
    for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what motivated me to do this.

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs. For example,
    instead of:

    * some message
    * other message
    * hell if i know what this is

    You get:

    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed. 10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original
    impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the
    point it could replace parsing the output.

    It wouldn't be worth blocking progress for one application that not many people use, but assuming there are others that will also break with this change. Are we sure there's no way to support ago's (very valuable) work without breaking other things?

    -A


    Kuroo is already a quite complex application that parse portage output. A
    quick grep seems to show that changes needed are quite manageable.
    Also the parsing should be more accurate with proposed changes.
    Rather it should be easy for the application to know in advance which
    format the output will be.
    There is also the opportunity to have a flag that enable (or disable) the augmented output, but IMHO this should be done only if the added complexity
    is NIL

    $ grep -c -Ers 'QRegExp |QregularExpression ' -i kuroo-1.2.1 | grep -v
    :0$
    kuroo-1.2.1/TODO:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/history/history.cpp:3
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/config/configdialog.h:2 kuroo-1.2.1/src/queue/queuelistview.cpp:1 kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanupdatesjob.cpp:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.h:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageinspector.cpp:4 kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageversion.h:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/etcupdate.h:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/portagedb.cpp:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanhistoryjob.cpp:3
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.cpp:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/dependatom.h:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/emerge.cpp:8






    The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    Example screenshot:

    https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png




    <div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Il giorno mer 29 set 2021 alle ore 23:52 A Schenck &lt;<a href="mailto:lane_andrew@hotmail.com">lane_andrew@hotmail.com</a>&gt; ha scritto:<br></div><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px
    0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:<br>
    &gt; Hi, everyone.<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; I know I&#39;m going to regret asking this... but I&#39;ve prepared a change to<br>
    &gt; the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion<br> &gt; than internally in Portage team.<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; The primary problem with the current output format is that different<br> &gt; kinds of messages differ only in color.  This makes them<br>
    &gt; indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep.  ago&#39;s been asking<br>
    &gt; for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what<br> &gt; motivated me to do this.<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors<br> &gt; and strings.  This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs.  For example,<br> &gt; instead of:<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt;  * some message<br>
    &gt;  * other message<br>
    &gt;  * hell if i know what this is<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; You get:<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; [WW] some message<br>
    &gt; [EE] other message<br>
    &gt; [QA] hell if i know what this is<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; I&#39;ve also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,<br>
    &gt; and ewarn from eqawarn.  Then, I&#39;ve replaced most of &#39;&gt;&gt;&gt;&#39; and &#39;!!!&#39;<br>
    &gt; used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned. <br>
    &gt; The &#39;zings&#39; used for merging files remain three-character, so now it&#39;s<br>
    &gt; easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.<br>

    Didn&#39;t expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this<br> but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these<br> &#39;zings&#39;. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be<br>
    others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information<br>
    out of portage, but it&#39;s been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed.<br>
    10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for<br>
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point<br>
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original<br> impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the<br> point it could replace parsing the output.<br>

    It wouldn&#39;t be worth blocking progress for one application that not many<br>
    people use, but assuming there are others that will also break with this<br> change. Are we sure there&#39;s no way to support ago&#39;s (very valuable) work<br>
    without breaking other things?<br>

    -A<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Kuroo is already a quite complex application that parse portage output. A quick grep seems to show that changes needed are quite manageable.<br>Also the parsing should be more accurate with proposed changes.<br>
    Rather it should be easy for the application to know in advance which format the output will be.<br>There is also the opportunity to have a flag that enable (or disable) the augmented output, but IMHO this should be done only if the added complexity is
    NIL<br><br><span style="font-family:monospace"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">$ grep -c  -Ers &#39;QRegExp |QregularExpression &#39; -i kuroo-1.2.1  | grep -v :0$
    </span><br>kuroo-1.2.1/TODO:1
    <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/history/history.cpp:3 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/config/configdialog.h:2 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/queue/queuelistview.cpp:1 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanupdatesjob.cpp:1 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.h:2 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageinspector.cpp:4 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageversion.h:2 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/etcupdate.h:1
    <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/portagedb.cpp:2 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanhistoryjob.cpp:3 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.cpp:1
    <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/dependatom.h:2 <br>kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/emerge.cpp:8<br> <br></span></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">

    &gt;<br>
    &gt; The PR doing this is: <a href="https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759</a><br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; Example screenshot:<br>
    &gt; <a href="https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png</a><br>
    &gt;<br>

    </blockquote></div></div>

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  • From Sam James@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 30 01:10:02 2021
    On 29 Sep 2021, at 22:52, A Schenck <lane_andrew@hotmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed. 10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original
    impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the
    point it could replace parsing the output.


    Valid point, and I wish that we could get more useful information out
    of Portage with easy APIs.

    It wouldn't be worth blocking progress for one application that not many people use, but assuming there are others that will also break with this change. Are we sure there's no way to support ago's (very valuable) work without breaking other things?

    Note that this isn't just for ago's purposes. One, it makes it easier to generally
    grep or parse portage output, but also (very importantly), it makes Portage's output more _accessible_.

    Right now, Portage is *way* too reliant on colour, which isn't very helpful
    for colourblind or eyesight impaired users/developers.

    -A


    The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    Example screenshot:
    https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png

    best,
    sam


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  • From Fabian Groffen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 30 08:50:02 2021
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that
    controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.

    In addition, much like the colour map, how do you see this change in
    light of eclasses, init-scripts, etc. that also use the same scheme as
    Portage at the moment? Would you expect to change those too at some
    point?

    Final question, am I understanding correctly that normal lines are not
    prefixed with something? Would it be, for consistency, alignment, and certainty of selecting rows something to use a prefix for those lines
    too (assuming they aren't at this point)?

    Thanks,
    Fabian

    On 28-09-2021 17:36:25 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
    Hi, everyone.

    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    The primary problem with the current output format is that different
    kinds of messages differ only in color. This makes them
    indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep. ago's been asking
    for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much what motivated me to do this.

    The proposed new format distinguished message types both using colors
    and strings. This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs. For example,
    instead of:

    * some message
    * other message
    * hell if i know what this is

    You get:

    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    Example screenshot: https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny




    --
    Fabian Groffen
    Gentoo on a different level

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to Fabian Groffen on Thu Sep 30 08:50:02 2021
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 08:40 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that
    controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.

    Patches welcome. It shouldn't be hard, my commit shows which files need
    to be edited to alter the prefixes and how to pass them into ebd.


    In addition, much like the colour map, how do you see this change in
    light of eclasses, init-scripts, etc. that also use the same scheme as Portage at the moment? Would you expect to change those too at some
    point?

    Eclasses are supposed to use standard einfo, elog... functions, so they
    should just workâ„¢. If someone's reinventing the wheel, it's not my
    problem.

    Init scripts aren't supposed to be used inside the PM, so that's out of
    scope.

    Final question, am I understanding correctly that normal lines are not prefixed with something? Would it be, for consistency, alignment, and certainty of selecting rows something to use a prefix for those lines
    too (assuming they aren't at this point)?

    I don't know, we've never done that. I suppose it would be possible but
    it is even more controversial and unlike the proposed changes, it would actually require mangling the process output.


    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

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  • From Fabian Groffen@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 30 09:20:02 2021
    On 30-09-2021 08:44:33 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 08:40 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.

    Patches welcome. It shouldn't be hard, my commit shows which files need
    to be edited to alter the prefixes and how to pass them into ebd.

    I see.

    In addition, much like the colour map, how do you see this change in
    light of eclasses, init-scripts, etc. that also use the same scheme as Portage at the moment? Would you expect to change those too at some
    point?

    Eclasses are supposed to use standard einfo, elog... functions, so they should just workâ„¢. If someone's reinventing the wheel, it's not my problem.

    Init scripts aren't supposed to be used inside the PM, so that's out of scope.

    I was just referring to the overall "feel" of Gentoo, which your work
    changes. It is ok that you don't plan on doing anything there.

    Final question, am I understanding correctly that normal lines are not prefixed with something? Would it be, for consistency, alignment, and certainty of selecting rows something to use a prefix for those lines
    too (assuming they aren't at this point)?

    I don't know, we've never done that. I suppose it would be possible but
    it is even more controversial and unlike the proposed changes, it would actually require mangling the process output.

    If I remember correctly, Portage already does. In which case, doing
    this (even if it were adding leading spaces) would not be that much
    work?

    Thanks,
    Fabian

    --
    Fabian Groffen
    Gentoo on a different level

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  • From A Schenck@21:1/5 to All on Fri Oct 1 20:40:02 2021
    --vIbbSWYr7q1xX36jAeTvbVrLyDdrPYwgK
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
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    Content-Language: en-US

    On 9/29/21 11:44 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 08:40 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that
    controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.
    Patches welcome. It shouldn't be hard, my commit shows which files need
    to be edited to alter the prefixes and how to pass them into ebd.

    Would it be possible to get this patch in an format that it can be
    interacted with with open tools? Per the other branch of this thread,
    we'd be happy to make this an opt-in so as to not break existing people.

    -A



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  • From Alec Warner@21:1/5 to lane_andrew@hotmail.com on Fri Oct 1 20:40:01 2021
    On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:30 AM A Schenck <lane_andrew@hotmail.com> wrote:

    On 9/29/21 11:44 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 08:40 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that
    controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.
    Patches welcome. It shouldn't be hard, my commit shows which files need
    to be edited to alter the prefixes and how to pass them into ebd.

    Would it be possible to get this patch in an format that it can be
    interacted with with open tools? Per the other branch of this thread,
    we'd be happy to make this an opt-in so as to not break existing people.

    I'm not sure what you mean; you can download the PR...

    https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    -A


    -A



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  • From Joshua Kinard@21:1/5 to Fabian Groffen on Sat Oct 2 00:10:02 2021
    On 9/30/2021 02:40, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that
    controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.

    Perhaps this would be better as a FEATURE flag? E.g., 'legacy-output' or something similar?


    In addition, much like the colour map, how do you see this change in
    light of eclasses, init-scripts, etc. that also use the same scheme as Portage at the moment? Would you expect to change those too at some
    point?

    Final question, am I understanding correctly that normal lines are not prefixed with something? Would it be, for consistency, alignment, and certainty of selecting rows something to use a prefix for those lines
    too (assuming they aren't at this point)?

    Thanks,
    Fabian


    --
    Joshua Kinard
    Gentoo/MIPS
    kumba@gentoo.org
    rsa6144/5C63F4E3F5C6C943 2015-04-27
    177C 1972 1FB8 F254 BAD0 3E72 5C63 F4E3 F5C6 C943

    "The past tempts us, the present confuses us, the future frightens us. And
    our lives slip away, moment by moment, lost in that vast, terrible in-between."

    --Emperor Turhan, Centauri Republic

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From A Schenck@21:1/5 to Francesco Riosa on Sat Oct 2 03:40:01 2021
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    On 9/29/21 3:58 PM, Francesco Riosa wrote:
    Il giorno mer 29 set 2021 alle ore 23:52 A Schenck
    <lane_andrew@hotmail.com <mailto:lane_andrew@hotmail.com>> ha scritto:

    On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
    > Hi, everyone.
    >
    > I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a
    change to
    > the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    > than internally in Portage team.
    >
    > The primary problem with the current output format is that different
    > kinds of messages differ only in color.  This makes them
    > indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep.  ago's been
    asking
    > for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is pretty much
    what
    > motivated me to do this.
    >
    > The proposed new format distinguished message types both using
    colors
    > and strings.  This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs.  For example,
    > instead of:
    >
    >  * some message
    >  * other message
    >  * hell if i know what this is
    >
    > You get:
    >
    > [WW] some message
    > [EE] other message
    > [QA] hell if i know what this is
    >
    > I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from
    elog,
    > and ewarn from eqawarn.  Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    > used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages
    aligned.
    > The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so
    now it's
    > easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there
    must be
    others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has
    existed.
    10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the
    point
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original
    impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it
    to the
    point it could replace parsing the output.

    It wouldn't be worth blocking progress for one application that
    not many
    people use, but assuming there are others that will also break
    with this
    change. Are we sure there's no way to support ago's (very
    valuable) work
    without breaking other things?

    -A


    Kuroo is already a quite complex application that parse portage
    output. A quick grep seems to show that changes needed are quite
    manageable.
    Also the parsing should be more accurate with proposed changes.
    Rather it should be easy for the application to know in advance which
    format the output will be.
    There is also the opportunity to have a flag that enable (or disable)
    the augmented output, but IMHO this should be done only if the added complexity is NIL

    $ grep -c  -Ers 'QRegExp |QregularExpression ' -i kuroo-1.2.1  | grep
    -v :0$
    kuroo-1.2.1/TODO:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/history/history.cpp:3
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/config/configdialog.h:2 kuroo-1.2.1/src/queue/queuelistview.cpp:1 kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanupdatesjob.cpp:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.h:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageinspector.cpp:4 kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageversion.h:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/etcupdate.h:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/portagedb.cpp:2 kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanhistoryjob.cpp:3
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.cpp:1
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/dependatom.h:2
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/emerge.cpp:8

    Alas and alack, just searching for regular expressions isn't enough,
    there are places that use QString::startsWith and contains and mid, &c.
    with literal QStrings. Tthere might be "spooky action at a distance" in
    some fifteen year old code that used some esoteric method to parse
    output because it was hip like -funroll-loops, and that could takes
    years to track down and fix despite best efforts to fix all the obvious QReg(|ular)Ex(|pression)s.

    If the idea is to clean up old code that admins haven't looked at in
    years because it "just worked"â„¢, that's valid too; treecleaner project
    is laudable for that. But if breaking things isn't the goal, then we
    should consider if there are options to keep things working. Regarding
    "added complexity": it would probably mean parsing one additional
    optional command line argument or make.conf / environment variable, then initialize format strings in elog/messages.py or output.py or something.
    It would be a lot easier to figure out how if the patch was available on
    free infrastructure rather than just looking randomly at portage code.


     


    >
    > The PR doing this is: https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759
    <https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759>
    >
    > Example screenshot:
    >
    https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png
    <https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png>
    >


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/29/21 3:58 PM, Francesco Riosa
    wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAD6zcDwTL2pB4CHaQSyRc0TDNdcB_QuXZe7wq9Lm2jkbP=m5Pw@mail.gmail.com">
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    <div dir="ltr">
    <div dir="ltr">Il giorno mer 29 set 2021 alle ore 23:52 A
    Schenck &lt;<a href="mailto:lane_andrew@hotmail.com"
    moz-do-not-send="true">lane_andrew@hotmail.com</a>&gt; ha
    scritto:<br>
    </div>
    <div class="gmail_quote">
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 9/28/21 8:36 AM,
    Michał Górny wrote:<br>
    &gt; Hi, everyone.<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've
    prepared a change to<br>
    &gt; the Portage output format and I think it asks for a
    wider discussion<br>
    &gt; than internally in Portage team.<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; The primary problem with the current output format is
    that different<br>
    &gt; kinds of messages differ only in color.  This makes
    them<br>
    &gt; indistinguishable without colors and hard to grep. 
    ago's been asking<br>
    &gt; for a better way to grep for QA warnings and this is
    pretty much what<br>
    &gt; motivated me to do this.<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; The proposed new format distinguished message types
    both using colors<br>
    &gt; and strings.  This is roughly inspired by Xorg logs. 
    For example,<br>
    &gt; instead of:<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt;  * some message<br>
    &gt;  * other message<br>
    &gt;  * hell if i know what this is<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; You get:<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; [WW] some message<br>
    &gt; [EE] other message<br>
    &gt; [QA] hell if i know what this is<br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish
    einfo from elog,<br>
    &gt; and ewarn from eqawarn.  Then, I've replaced most of
    '&gt;&gt;&gt;' and '!!!'<br>
    &gt; used by Portage with four-character versions to keep
    messages aligned. <br>
    &gt; The 'zings' used for merging files remain
    three-character, so now it's<br>
    &gt; easily possible to distinguish messages from installed
    file list.<br>
    <br>
    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something
    like this<br>
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for
    these<br>
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way;
    there must be<br>
    others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get
    information<br>
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo
    has existed.<br>
    10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and
    API for<br>
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development
    to the point<br>
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the
    original<br>
    impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never
    made it to the<br>
    point it could replace parsing the output.<br>
    <br>
    It wouldn't be worth blocking progress for one application
    that not many<br>
    people use, but assuming there are others that will also
    break with this<br>
    change. Are we sure there's no way to support ago's (very
    valuable) work<br>
    without breaking other things?<br>
    <br>
    -A<br>
    </blockquote>
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div>Kuroo is already a quite complex application that parse
    portage output. A quick grep seems to show that changes
    needed are quite manageable.<br>
    Also the parsing should be more accurate with proposed
    changes.<br>
    Rather it should be easy for the application to know in
    advance which format the output will be.<br>
    There is also the opportunity to have a flag that enable (or
    disable) the augmented output, but IMHO this should be done
    only if the added complexity is NIL<br>
    <br>
    <span style="font-family:monospace"><span
    style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">$ grep -c  -Ers 'QRegExp
    |QregularExpression ' -i kuroo-1.2.1  | grep -v :0$
    </span><br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/TODO:1
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/history/history.cpp:3
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/config/configdialog.h:2
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/queue/queuelistview.cpp:1
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanupdatesjob.cpp:1
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.h:2
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageinspector.cpp:4
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/packageversion.h:2
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/etcupdate.h:1
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/portagedb.cpp:2
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/scanhistoryjob.cpp:3
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/global.cpp:1
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/dependatom.h:2
    <br>
    kuroo-1.2.1/src/core/emerge.cpp:8<br>
    <br>
    </span></div>
    </div>
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    <p>Alas and alack, just searching for regular expressions isn't
    enough, there are places that use QString::startsWith and contains
    and mid, &amp;c. with literal QStrings. Tthere might be "spooky
    action at a distance" in some fifteen year old code that used some
    esoteric method to parse output because it was hip like
    -funroll-loops, and that could takes years to track down and fix
    despite best efforts to fix all the obvious
    QReg(|ular)Ex(|pression)s.</p>
    <p>If the idea is to clean up old code that admins haven't looked at
    in years because it "just worked"â„¢, that's valid too; treecleaner
    project is laudable for that. But if breaking things isn't the
    goal, then we should consider if there are options to keep things
    working. Regarding "added complexity": it would probably mean
    parsing one additional optional command line argument or make.conf
    / environment variable, then initialize format strings in
    elog/messages.py or output.py or something. It would be a lot
    easier to figure out how if the patch was available on free
    infrastructure rather than just looking randomly at portage code.<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAD6zcDwTL2pB4CHaQSyRc0TDNdcB_QuXZe7wq9Lm2jkbP=m5Pw@mail.gmail.com">
    <div dir="ltr">
    <div class="gmail_quote">
    <div><br>
    </div>
    <div> </div>
    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
    0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
    rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
    <br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; The PR doing this is: <a
    href="https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759"
    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759</a><br>
    &gt;<br>
    &gt; Example screenshot:<br>
    &gt; <a href="https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png"
    rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://user-images.githubusercontent.com/110765/135119090-16e9599d-1b0f-41b8-a965-a55577183ffd.png</a><br>
    &gt;<br>
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    </div>
    </div>
    </blockquote>
    </body>
    </html>

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to Joshua Kinard on Sat Oct 2 09:10:02 2021
    On Fri, 2021-10-01 at 18:00 -0400, Joshua Kinard wrote:
    On 9/30/2021 02:40, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.

    Perhaps this would be better as a FEATURE flag? E.g., 'legacy-output' or something similar?


    No. FEATURES is just a horrible historical mistake. Proper
    configuration uses separate keys for separate options.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ulrich Mueller@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 2 09:30:01 2021
    On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, A Schenck wrote:

    On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed. 10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original
    impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the
    point it could replace parsing the output.

    If only the length of the >>> and !!! strings is a problem, then why not
    leave them alone and go for single-letter tags instead? Like this:

    [.] einfo
    [I] elog
    [W] ewarn
    [E] eerror
    [Q] eqawarn

    The only problematic one is [Q] instead of [QA] which is no longer self-explanatory. Then again, only devs and experienced users should see eqawarn messages.

    Ulrich

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  • From Mike Gilbert@21:1/5 to lane_andrew@hotmail.com on Sat Oct 2 20:00:02 2021
    On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 1:25 PM A Schenck <lane_andrew@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Further discussion belongs on a different list, but the link provided by mgorny and repeated by you does not allow collaborating in compliance
    with the Gentoo Social Contract.

    The patches were also posted for review on the gentoo-portage-dev mailing list.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From A Schenck@21:1/5 to Alec Warner on Sat Oct 2 19:30:07 2021
    --qd3FCfFJh1DPvO0qLCWGEdMIq4rmM7aid
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Language: en-US

    On 10/1/21 11:32 AM, Alec Warner wrote:
    On Fri, Oct 1, 2021 at 11:30 AM A Schenck <lane_andrew@hotmail.com> wrote:
    On 9/29/21 11:44 PM, Michał Górny wrote:
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 08:40 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Hi,

    Would it be possible to have some switch (e.g. --style=legacy) that
    controls this new vs. the old behaviour? Would perhaps allow
    applications that parse the output to work via setting this in the
    global opts.
    Patches welcome. It shouldn't be hard, my commit shows which files need >>> to be edited to alter the prefixes and how to pass them into ebd.
    Would it be possible to get this patch in an format that it can be
    interacted with with open tools? Per the other branch of this thread,
    we'd be happy to make this an opt-in so as to not break existing people.
    I'm not sure what you mean; you can download the PR...

    https://github.com/gentoo/portage/pull/759

    -A

    This isn't really the place to rehash the whole discussion of free
    speech vs. free beer: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw-en.html .
    Suffice to say the Gentoo Social Contract (https://www.gentoo.org/get-started/philosophy/social-contract.html#gentoo-is-and-will-remain-free-software)
    states: "Gentoo will never depend upon a piece of software or metadata
    unless it conforms to the GNU General Public License, the GNU Lesser
    General Public License, the Creative Commons - Attribution/Share Alike
    or some other license approved by the Open Source Initiative"; which
    GitHub does not conform to: https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html#GitHub .
    Further reading (linked from gnu.org) at https://sanctum.geek.nz/why-not-github.html , and of course we all know
    that Microsoft acquired GitHub, and of course Microsoft has a history of
    suing Free / Libre / Open Source Software creators and users.

    Further discussion belongs on a different list, but the link provided by
    mgorny and repeated by you does not allow collaborating in compliance
    with the Gentoo Social Contract.

    -A

    -A




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  • From Ionen Wolkens@21:1/5 to Ulrich Mueller on Sun Oct 3 00:10:02 2021
    On Sat, Oct 02, 2021 at 09:22:49AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, A Schenck wrote:

    On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog,
    and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned.
    The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's
    easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this
    but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these
    'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed. 10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for
    portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point
    of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the point it could replace parsing the output.

    If only the length of the >>> and !!! strings is a problem, then why not leave them alone and go for single-letter tags instead? Like this:

    [.] einfo
    [I] elog
    [W] ewarn
    [E] eerror
    [Q] eqawarn

    The only problematic one is [Q] instead of [QA] which is no longer self-explanatory. Then again, only devs and experienced users should see eqawarn messages.

    fwiw eqawarn is currently displayed for everyone in a similar manner
    as einfo, just not post-emerge/elog without adding to ELOG classes.

    If users aren't hiding build logs entirely, they may notice those
    done at the end (often shown after size report) -- and possibly
    think it's a problem.

    Not to say whether [Q] vs [QA] would help with this much so I have
    no strong opinion here.
    --
    ionen

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  • From Ionen Wolkens@21:1/5 to Ionen Wolkens on Sun Oct 3 05:00:01 2021
    On Sat, Oct 02, 2021 at 06:04:36PM -0400, Ionen Wolkens wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 02, 2021 at 09:22:49AM +0200, Ulrich Mueller wrote:
    On Wed, 29 Sep 2021, A Schenck wrote:

    On 9/28/21 8:36 AM, Michał Górny wrote:
    [WW] some message
    [EE] other message
    [QA] hell if i know what this is

    I've also added more colors to explicitly distinguish einfo from elog, >> and ewarn from eqawarn. Then, I've replaced most of '>>>' and '!!!'
    used by Portage with four-character versions to keep messages aligned. >> The 'zings' used for merging files remain three-character, so now it's >> easily possible to distinguish messages from installed file list.

    Didn't expect to be the only dissenting opinion on something like this but. . . Some applications parse portage output looking for these 'zings'. At very least app-portage/kuroo does it this way; there must be others, right? This is obviously not the ideal way to get information
    out of portage, but it's been stable for the 15 years Kuroo has existed. 10-ish years ago dol-sen started some work on building and API for portage, but then got sucked into core portage development to the point of abandoning their GTK+ portage GUI porthole, which was the original impetus for an API, and as far as we know, the API never made it to the point it could replace parsing the output.

    If only the length of the >>> and !!! strings is a problem, then why not leave them alone and go for single-letter tags instead? Like this:

    [.] einfo
    [I] elog
    [W] ewarn
    [E] eerror
    [Q] eqawarn

    The only problematic one is [Q] instead of [QA] which is no longer self-explanatory. Then again, only devs and experienced users should see eqawarn messages.

    fwiw eqawarn is currently displayed for everyone in a similar manner
    as einfo, just not post-emerge/elog without adding to ELOG classes.

    If users aren't hiding build logs entirely, they may notice those
    done at the end (often shown after size report) -- and possibly
    think it's a problem.

    Not to say whether [Q] vs [QA] would help with this much so I have
    no strong opinion here.

    Guess there's a lot of other options that could be considered as well.

    --- files
    text
    * current, it wasn't aligned now that I look at it again
    (relying only on color to convey type feels clearly wrong to me)

    --- files
    text
    [QA] new based on current PR

    text
    [QA] aligned 1 character further, maybe skipping changing >>> is fine?
    (then again that it's further is what threw me off at first)

    text
    QA* similar to before, but aligned using only 3 chars

    text
    [Q] kinda more obscure but it can work

    text
    QA* probably closest to how it was before alignment-wise, but meh at 4 >

    message
    not convinced about this one, but throwing it here anyway
    (other characters could be considered as well)

    Maybe a poll of some kind may help, personally undecided on what I
    like better beside agreeing that a change is needed.

    --
    ionen

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  • From Ionen Wolkens@21:1/5 to Ionen Wolkens on Sun Oct 3 05:10:02 2021
    On Sat, Oct 02, 2021 at 10:53:37PM -0400, Ionen Wolkens wrote:
    Guess there's a lot of other options that could be considered as well.

    --- files
    text
    * current, it wasn't aligned now that I look at it again
    (relying only on color to convey type feels clearly wrong to me)

    --- files
    text
    [QA] new based on current PR

    text
    [QA] aligned 1 character further, maybe skipping changing >>> is fine?
    (then again that it's further is what threw me off at first)

    text
    QA* similar to before, but aligned using only 3 chars

    text
    [Q] kinda more obscure but it can work


    Guess should also add these:
    text
    Q* Notice:
    E* Some error happened
    (closest to before by making use of the former leading space, thus
    no alignment changes)

    text
    QA Notice:
    EE Some error happened
    (at least clearer than Q* Notice, but unsure about no separator.. guess
    it could work?)

    text
    QA* probably closest to how it was before alignment-wise, but meh at 4 >

    message
    not convinced about this one, but throwing it here anyway
    (other characters could be considered as well)

    Maybe a poll of some kind may help, personally undecided on what I
    like better beside agreeing that a change is needed.


    --
    ionen

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  • From Fabian Groffen@21:1/5 to Ionen Wolkens on Sun Oct 3 09:00:02 2021
    On 02-10-2021 23:03:56 -0400, Ionen Wolkens wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 02, 2021 at 10:53:37PM -0400, Ionen Wolkens wrote:
    Guess there's a lot of other options that could be considered as well.

    --- files
    text
    * current, it wasn't aligned now that I look at it again
    (relying only on color to convey type feels clearly wrong to me)

    --- files
    text
    [QA] new based on current PR

    text
    [QA] aligned 1 character further, maybe skipping changing >>> is fine? (then again that it's further is what threw me off at first)

    text
    QA* similar to before, but aligned using only 3 chars

    text
    [Q] kinda more obscure but it can work


    Guess should also add these:
    text
    Q* Notice:
    E* Some error happened
    (closest to before by making use of the former leading space, thus
    no alignment changes)

    FWIW, I like this one. Perhaps even with lowercase

    make[4]: leaving directory src
    q* soname lacks version
    e* failed to die

    Fabian


    text
    QA Notice:
    EE Some error happened
    (at least clearer than Q* Notice, but unsure about no separator.. guess
    it could work?)

    text
    QA* probably closest to how it was before alignment-wise, but meh at 4 >

    message
    not convinced about this one, but throwing it here anyway
    (other characters could be considered as well)

    Maybe a poll of some kind may help, personally undecided on what I
    like better beside agreeing that a change is needed.


    --
    ionen



    --
    Fabian Groffen
    Gentoo on a different level

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  • From Ionen Wolkens@21:1/5 to Fabian Groffen on Sun Oct 3 09:40:01 2021
    On Sun, Oct 03, 2021 at 08:58:00AM +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    On 02-10-2021 23:03:56 -0400, Ionen Wolkens wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 02, 2021 at 10:53:37PM -0400, Ionen Wolkens wrote:
    Guess there's a lot of other options that could be considered as well.

    --- files
    text
    * current, it wasn't aligned now that I look at it again
    (relying only on color to convey type feels clearly wrong to me)

    --- files
    text
    [QA] new based on current PR

    text
    [QA] aligned 1 character further, maybe skipping changing >>> is fine? (then again that it's further is what threw me off at first)

    text
    QA* similar to before, but aligned using only 3 chars

    text
    [Q] kinda more obscure but it can work


    Guess should also add these:
    text
    Q* Notice:
    E* Some error happened
    (closest to before by making use of the former leading space, thus
    no alignment changes)

    FWIW, I like this one. Perhaps even with lowercase

    make[4]: leaving directory src
    q* soname lacks version
    e* failed to die

    Also I guess it provides some degree of compatibility with external scripts/tools that adopted the ` * ` format to copy portage.
    i.e. could actually keep ` * ` for einfo, no need for `.* ` here.

    Lowercase might be a good idea too, albeit I'm still undecided on
    what I like best in general.


    Fabian


    text
    QA Notice:
    EE Some error happened
    (at least clearer than Q* Notice, but unsure about no separator.. guess
    it could work?)

    text
    QA* probably closest to how it was before alignment-wise, but meh at 4 >

    message
    not convinced about this one, but throwing it here anyway
    (other characters could be considered as well)

    Maybe a poll of some kind may help, personally undecided on what I
    like better beside agreeing that a change is needed.


    --
    ionen



    --
    Fabian Groffen
    Gentoo on a different level



    --
    ionen

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  • From Alexey Sokolov@21:1/5 to All on Sun Oct 3 10:20:02 2021
    03.10.2021 07:58, Fabian Groffen пишет:

    FWIW, I like this one. Perhaps even with lowercase

    make[4]: leaving directory src
    q* soname lacks version
    e* failed to die


    For me this reads as some kind of censorship to remove profanities from
    the output; and my mind is trying to reconstruct what profanity it was...


    --
    Best regards,
    Alexey "DarthGandalf" Sokolov

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to All on Mon Oct 4 08:50:01 2021
    On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 17:36 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    As I suspected, I truly regret sending this mail. I'm dangerously close
    to burning out, so I'm going to retract these patches. When you decide
    what you want and make patches for it, feel free to send them to
    Portage.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Fabian Groffen@21:1/5 to All on Tue Oct 5 09:50:03 2021
    On 05-10-2021 09:35:32 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 09:18 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Final question, am I understanding correctly that normal lines are not prefixed with something? Would it be, for consistency, alignment, and certainty of selecting rows something to use a prefix for those lines too (assuming they aren't at this point)?

    I don't know, we've never done that. I suppose it would be possible but it is even more controversial and unlike the proposed changes, it would actually require mangling the process output.

    If I remember correctly, Portage already does. In which case, doing
    this (even if it were adding leading spaces) would not be that much
    work?


    I'm afraid this is not that simple. You need to account for all escape sequences that can affect editing already output data including clean handling of line wrapping. In the end, we'd have to have a complete detachtty-class terminal emulator inside Portage.

    Fair enough, thanks for looking into it.

    Fabian

    --
    Fabian Groffen
    Gentoo on a different level

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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Micha=C5=82_G=C3=B3rny?=@21:1/5 to Fabian Groffen on Tue Oct 5 09:50:03 2021
    On Thu, 2021-09-30 at 09:18 +0200, Fabian Groffen wrote:
    Final question, am I understanding correctly that normal lines are not prefixed with something? Would it be, for consistency, alignment, and certainty of selecting rows something to use a prefix for those lines
    too (assuming they aren't at this point)?

    I don't know, we've never done that. I suppose it would be possible but
    it is even more controversial and unlike the proposed changes, it would actually require mangling the process output.

    If I remember correctly, Portage already does. In which case, doing
    this (even if it were adding leading spaces) would not be that much
    work?


    I'm afraid this is not that simple. You need to account for all escape sequences that can affect editing already output data including clean
    handling of line wrapping. In the end, we'd have to have a complete detachtty-class terminal emulator inside Portage.

    --
    Best regards,
    Michał Górny

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From A Schenck@21:1/5 to Mike Gilbert on Tue Oct 5 21:50:02 2021
    --t5BWW3fRUhgg4AJkvmsVswjLr3WWACfyG
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Content-Language: en-US

    On 10/2/21 10:51 AM, Mike Gilbert wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 2, 2021 at 1:25 PM A Schenck <lane_andrew@hotmail.com> wrote:
    Further discussion belongs on a different list, but the link provided by
    mgorny and repeated by you does not allow collaborating in compliance
    with the Gentoo Social Contract.
    The patches were also posted for review on the gentoo-portage-dev mailing list.
    Thanks. The patch is a bit messier than hoped but it's a starting point.


    --t5BWW3fRUhgg4AJkvmsVswjLr3WWACfyG--

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  • From Rich Freeman@21:1/5 to mgorny@gentoo.org on Tue Oct 5 22:40:03 2021
    On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 2:48 AM Michał Górny <mgorny@gentoo.org> wrote:

    On Tue, 2021-09-28 at 17:36 +0200, Michał Górny wrote:
    I know I'm going to regret asking this... but I've prepared a change to
    the Portage output format and I think it asks for a wider discussion
    than internally in Portage team.

    As I suspected, I truly regret sending this mail. I'm dangerously close
    to burning out, so I'm going to retract these patches. When you decide
    what you want and make patches for it, feel free to send them to
    Portage.

    Keep in mind that while distributing patches and soliciting comments
    is a good practice, I don't believe any of our policies REQUIRE that
    you:

    1. Reply to anybody who comments.
    2. Address any comments.
    3. Wait until anybody (let alone everybody) agrees before proceeding.

    I think that we sometimes let the requirement to communicate somehow
    stifle the desire to get things done. While I don't recommend it, you
    can technically satisfy any communications requirements by posting
    your patch and literally never checking your email before committing
    it. Obviously if you mess something up in doing so you'll look dumb,
    but it isn't intended to be a bureaucratic requirement.

    I suggest just skimming the comments to see if there is anything that
    seems like a good idea, then implementing those ideas (which you'll
    probably want to do anyway), and ignore the rest without comment. If
    somebody has a problem with what you're doing, the onus is on them to
    go find somebody to complain to in order to stop you. If you're the
    maintainer then you don't need permission to commit.

    In my experience the Council is fairly resistant to requests to meddle
    for things that aren't super-critical, so I'd be shocked if they
    didn't just ack and dismiss any request to bikeshed exactly what
    prefix your elog output uses.

    Open to contrary opinions, but IMO I think maintainers perceive that
    the distro is more consensus-driven than it actually is. You don't
    have to "win" the email battle.

    --
    Rich

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)