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  • [gentoo-user] Re: Pipewire not a dependency?

    From Nikos Chantziaras@21:1/5 to Michael on Thu Sep 29 16:20:01 2022
    On 28/09/2022 13:57, Michael wrote:
    I'm trying to understand why one laptop with Plasma which had pulseaudio removed, won't bring in pipewire as a dependency. I have set USE="- screencast", because I don't need/want this functionality, as I have done on other systems which nevertheless have had pipewire brought in as a dependency.

    Probably some other package pulls it in directly, independent of the
    screencast USE flag. For example media-sound/easyeffects.

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 1 15:08:40 2022
    On Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:11:02 BST Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
    On 28/09/2022 13:57, Michael wrote:
    I'm trying to understand why one laptop with Plasma which had pulseaudio removed, won't bring in pipewire as a dependency. I have set USE="- screencast", because I don't need/want this functionality, as I have done on other systems which nevertheless have had pipewire brought in as a dependency.
    Probably some other package pulls it in directly, independent of the screencast USE flag. For example media-sound/easyeffects.

    I just looked and a pipewire(d) system has only a few additional audio applications, spek, vidcutter, easytag, none of which seem to bring in pipewire. I think I'll have to install it manually on the system which
    doesn't bring it in as some dependency. Somehow I was under the impression it comes with Plasma these days, but perhaps I have stripped down this Plasma/kde installation too much.
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  • From Peter Humphrey@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 1 17:00:01 2022
    On Saturday, 1 October 2022 15:08:40 BST Michael wrote:
    On Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:11:02 BST Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
    On 28/09/2022 13:57, Michael wrote:
    I'm trying to understand why one laptop with Plasma which had
    pulseaudio
    removed, won't bring in pipewire as a dependency. I have set USE="- screencast", because I don't need/want this functionality, as I have
    done
    on other systems which nevertheless have had pipewire brought in as a dependency.

    Probably some other package pulls it in directly, independent of the screencast USE flag. For example media-sound/easyeffects.

    I just looked and a pipewire(d) system has only a few additional audio applications, spek, vidcutter, easytag, none of which seem to bring in pipewire. I think I'll have to install it manually on the system which doesn't bring it in as some dependency. Somehow I was under the impression it comes with Plasma these days, but perhaps I have stripped down this Plasma/kde installation too much.

    I have no pipewire on this fairly standard Plasma box.

    --
    Regards,
    Peter.

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  • From Mark Knecht@21:1/5 to peter@prh.myzen.co.uk on Sat Oct 1 17:00:01 2022
    On Sat, Oct 1, 2022 at 7:51 AM Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

    On Saturday, 1 October 2022 15:08:40 BST Michael wrote:
    On Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:11:02 BST Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
    On 28/09/2022 13:57, Michael wrote:
    I'm trying to understand why one laptop with Plasma which had
    pulseaudio
    removed, won't bring in pipewire as a dependency. I have set USE="- screencast", because I don't need/want this functionality, as I have done
    on other systems which nevertheless have had pipewire brought in as
    a
    dependency.

    Probably some other package pulls it in directly, independent of the screencast USE flag. For example media-sound/easyeffects.

    I just looked and a pipewire(d) system has only a few additional audio applications, spek, vidcutter, easytag, none of which seem to bring in pipewire. I think I'll have to install it manually on the system which doesn't bring it in as some dependency. Somehow I was under the
    impression
    it comes with Plasma these days, but perhaps I have stripped down this Plasma/kde installation too much.

    I have no pipewire on this fairly standard Plasma box.


    I believe that pipewire, as far as KDE users are concerned, is a
    distro choice about when to use it.

    My Kubuntu boxes started using it recently. I had no issues and
    didn't need to change any settings for any application that makes
    use of sound.

    YMMV,
    Mark

    <div dir="ltr"><br><br>On Sat, Oct 1, 2022 at 7:51 AM Peter Humphrey &lt;<a href="mailto:peter@prh.myzen.co.uk">peter@prh.myzen.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>&gt;<br>&gt; On Saturday, 1 October 2022 15:08:40 BST Michael wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; On Thursday, 29
    September 2022 15:11:02 BST Nikos Chantziaras wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; On 28/09/2022 13:57, Michael wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; I&#39;m trying to understand why one laptop with Plasma which had<br>&gt; pulseaudio<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; removed, won&#39;
    t bring in pipewire as a dependency.  I have set USE=&quot;-<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; screencast&quot;, because I don&#39;t need/want this functionality, as I have<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; done<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; on other systems which nevertheless have
    had pipewire brought in as a<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; &gt; dependency.<br>&gt; &gt; &gt;<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; Probably some other package pulls it in directly, independent of the<br>&gt; &gt; &gt; screencast USE flag. For example media-sound/easyeffects.<br>&gt; &
    gt;<br>&gt; &gt; I just looked and a pipewire(d) system has only a few additional audio<br>&gt; &gt; applications, spek, vidcutter, easytag, none of which seem to bring in<br>&gt; &gt; pipewire.  I think I&#39;ll have to install it manually on the
    system which<br>&gt; &gt; doesn&#39;t bring it in as some dependency.  Somehow I was under the impression<br>&gt; &gt; it comes with Plasma these days, but perhaps I have stripped down this<br>&gt; &gt; Plasma/kde installation too much.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;
    I have no pipewire on this fairly standard Plasma box.<br>&gt;<br><br><div>I believe that pipewire, as far as KDE users are concerned, is a </div><div>distro choice about when to use it.</div><div><br></div><div>My Kubuntu boxes started using it
    recently. I had no issues and </div><div>didn&#39;t need to change any settings for any application that makes </div><div>use of sound.</div><div><br></div><div>YMMV,</div><div>Mark</div></div>

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 1 17:56:40 2022
    On Saturday, 1 October 2022 15:57:03 BST Mark Knecht wrote:
    On Sat, Oct 1, 2022 at 7:51 AM Peter Humphrey <peter@prh.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
    On Saturday, 1 October 2022 15:08:40 BST Michael wrote:
    On Thursday, 29 September 2022 15:11:02 BST Nikos Chantziaras wrote:
    On 28/09/2022 13:57, Michael wrote:
    I'm trying to understand why one laptop with Plasma which had

    pulseaudio

    removed, won't bring in pipewire as a dependency. I have set USE="- screencast", because I don't need/want this functionality, as I have done
    on other systems which nevertheless have had pipewire brought in as

    a

    dependency.

    Probably some other package pulls it in directly, independent of the screencast USE flag. For example media-sound/easyeffects.

    I just looked and a pipewire(d) system has only a few additional audio applications, spek, vidcutter, easytag, none of which seem to bring in pipewire. I think I'll have to install it manually on the system which doesn't bring it in as some dependency. Somehow I was under the

    impression

    it comes with Plasma these days, but perhaps I have stripped down this Plasma/kde installation too much.

    I have no pipewire on this fairly standard Plasma box.

    I believe that pipewire, as far as KDE users are concerned, is a
    distro choice about when to use it.

    My Kubuntu boxes started using it recently. I had no issues and
    didn't need to change any settings for any application that makes
    use of sound.

    YMMV,
    Mark

    Thank you all for your responses. It could be some Plasma/KDE USE flag which differs between my systems causing this. Without spending a lot of time I wouldn't know for sure TBH.

    Anyway, I ventured into pipewire because I wanted to see if Skype would work without pulseaudio and in this system it won't. After I manually installed pipewire Skype won't access the microphone. :-(

    Re-enabling pulseaudio wants to rebuild some 30 packages including
    qtwebengine. That's an overnight job on this old laptop.
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  • From Wol@21:1/5 to Michael on Sat Oct 1 19:20:01 2022
    On 01/10/2022 17:56, Michael wrote:
    Anyway, I ventured into pipewire because I wanted to see if Skype would work without pulseaudio and in this system it won't. After I manually installed pipewire Skype won't access the microphone. 🙁

    I've got some vague feeling that pipewire is designed to happily sit
    under pulseaudio. The design aim was to replace both Jack and pulseaudio
    but it basically just presents a sound device to the layers above, so
    just like you can stack block devices for disk access, you can stack
    jack, pulseaudio and pipewire for sound.

    The big difference between a sound stack and a block stack is that a
    block stack is asynchronous and latency is (relatively) unimportant. In
    a sound stack some applications *demand* synchronicity, and latency is everything. Jack is extremely latency sensitive, pulseaudio buffers and
    doesn't care, and pipewire is intended to satisfy both.

    So the intent was clearly to install pipewire underneath a working
    pulseaudio, and just move applications across as and when.

    Cheers,
    Wol

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  • From Daniel Sonck@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 1 20:40:01 2022
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    On zaterdag 1 oktober 2022 19:11:19 CEST Wol wrote:
    On 01/10/2022 17:56, Michael wrote:
    Anyway, I ventured into pipewire because I wanted to see if Skype would work without pulseaudio and in this system it won't. After I manually installed pipewire Skype won't access the microphone. 🙁

    I've got some vague feeling that pipewire is designed to happily sit
    under pulseaudio. The design aim was to replace both Jack and pulseaudio
    but it basically just presents a sound device to the layers above, so
    just like you can stack block devices for disk access, you can stack
    jack, pulseaudio and pipewire for sound.
    Well, it is actually designed as a drop-in replacement and won't present audio devices in the
    sense pulseaudio wants to receive it. I guess it would theoretically be possible to use
    pulseaudio's jack sink to talk to pipewire, but pipewire has the full pulseaudio interface for
    pulseaudio applications.

    The big difference between a sound stack and a block stack is that a
    block stack is asynchronous and latency is (relatively) unimportant. In
    a sound stack some applications *demand* synchronicity, and latency is everything. Jack is extremely latency sensitive, pulseaudio buffers and doesn't care, and pipewire is intended to satisfy both.

    So the intent was clearly to install pipewire underneath a working pulseaudio, and just move applications across as and when.
    This was never an intent, pipewire was intended as an pulseaudio implementation by itself. So
    it doesn't need (and likely is incompatible running together with) pulseaudio in order to
    support pulseaudio clients. But it does need to be configured as such.

    Cheers,
    Wol

    Regards,

    Daniel

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
    </head>
    <body><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">On zaterdag 1 oktober 2022 19:11:19 CEST Wol wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; On 01/10/2022 17:56, Michael wrote:</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; Anyway, I ventured into pipewire because I wanted to see if Skype would</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; work without pulseaudio and in this system it won't.&nbsp; After I manually</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; &gt; installed pipewire Skype won't access the microphone.&nbsp; 🙁</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; I've got some vague feeling that pipewire is designed to happily sit</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; under pulseaudio. The design aim was to replace both Jack and pulseaudio</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; but it basically just presents a sound device to the layers above, so</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; just like you can stack block devices for disk access, you can stack</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; jack, pulseaudio and pipewire for sound.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Well, it is actually designed as a drop-in replacement and won't present audio devices in the sense pulseaudio wants to receive it. I guess it would theoretically be possible to use
    pulseaudio's jack sink to talk to pipewire, but pipewire has the full pulseaudio interface for pulseaudio applications.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; The big difference between a sound stack and a block stack is that a</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; block stack is asynchronous and latency is (relatively) unimportant. In</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; a sound stack some applications *demand* synchronicity, and latency is</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; everything. Jack is extremely latency sensitive, pulseaudio buffers and</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; doesn't care, and pipewire is intended to satisfy both.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; So the intent was clearly to install pipewire underneath a working</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; pulseaudio, and just move applications across as and when.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">This was never an intent, pipewire was intended as an pulseaudio implementation by itself. So it doesn't need (and likely is incompatible running together with) pulseaudio in order to
    support pulseaudio clients. But it does need to be configured as such.</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; </p> <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Cheers,</p>
    <p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">&gt; Wol</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Regards,</p>
    <br /><p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;margin-left:0;margin-right:0;">Daniel</p>
    </body>
    </html>

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  • From Michael@21:1/5 to All on Sat Oct 1 19:29:17 2022
    On Saturday, 1 October 2022 18:11:19 BST Wol wrote:
    On 01/10/2022 17:56, Michael wrote:
    Anyway, I ventured into pipewire because I wanted to see if Skype would work without pulseaudio and in this system it won't. After I manually installed pipewire Skype won't access the microphone. 🙁

    I've got some vague feeling that pipewire is designed to happily sit
    under pulseaudio. The design aim was to replace both Jack and pulseaudio
    but it basically just presents a sound device to the layers above, so
    just like you can stack block devices for disk access, you can stack
    jack, pulseaudio and pipewire for sound.

    The big difference between a sound stack and a block stack is that a
    block stack is asynchronous and latency is (relatively) unimportant. In
    a sound stack some applications *demand* synchronicity, and latency is everything. Jack is extremely latency sensitive, pulseaudio buffers and doesn't care, and pipewire is intended to satisfy both.

    So the intent was clearly to install pipewire underneath a working pulseaudio, and just move applications across as and when.

    Cheers,
    Wol

    My very limited understanding is pipewire is meant to replace pulseaudio and jack, rather than become part of an audio/video stack:

    https://docs.pipewire.org/page_overview.html

    I think applications will gradually be coded to work with pipewire, until then suitable pipewire plugins would be required. Perhaps for Skype to work today I will also have to enable pulseaudio, at which point it will not need pipewire itself. The strange thing is audio playback works great with pipewire, it's the microphone which does not appear to be capturing anything and causes Skype to disconnect. :-/

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  • From Nikos Chantziaras@21:1/5 to Michael on Sun Oct 2 13:00:01 2022
    On 01/10/2022 19:56, Michael wrote:
    Anyway, I ventured into pipewire because I wanted to see if Skype would work without pulseaudio and in this system it won't. After I manually installed pipewire Skype won't access the microphone. :-(

    Maybe Skype uses ALSA? It's best to enable the "pipewire-alsa" USE flag
    on pipewire and disable the "pulseaudio" flag on alsa-plugins:

    media-video/pipewire: pipewire-alsa
    media-plugins/alsa-plugins: -pulseaudio

    This replaces pulseaudio's ALSA plugin with pipewire's. Skype might work
    with this.

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