Hello,

On a PowerBook G3 Pismo, I just upgraded Debian SID:
# apt-get update
# apt-get upgrade
# apt-get dist-upgrade

As part of the dist-upgrade (see below), at least one package requires
systemd as a dependency, causing the removal of sysvinit-core.

After the dist-upgrade, I was able to remove systemd using a two-step
process:
# apt-get purge systemd
Reboot and repeat:
# apt-get purge systemd

So there's a workaround, since I'm able to remove systemd eventually.
It's just an inconvenience for those of us who choose to run sysvinit
instead of systemd. IMO, systemd is slower and more intrusive on all
systems than sysvinit. And while it may be ok or even preferable for
larger (or corporate) systems, it is too slow for any m68k system or any powerpc system that is slower than about a Pismo (500 MHz with 1 GiB
memory), and I don't want to use it there, either, since I use a common
Debian SID installation for all of my powerpc systems.

I can restore from a backup and re-run the dist-upgrade if anyone knows
how to locate the specific package(s) triggering the dependency; it is
likely one or more of the 25 packagees upgraded below:

-----
# apt-get dist-upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer
required:
libperl5.32 libwebp6 linux-config-5.15 linux-source-5.15 orphan-sysvinit-scripts perl-modules-5.32
Use 'apt autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
libwacom2 sysvinit-core
The following NEW packages will be installed:
dbus-user-session libjim0.79 libmbim-glib4 libmbim-proxy libmm-glib0 libnss-systemd libpam-systemd libperl5.34 libpolkit-agent-1-0
libqmi-glib5 libqmi-proxy libwacom-bin libwacom9 libwebp7 libxcvt0 linux-source-5.16 modemmanager perl-modules-5.34 pkexec policykit-1
polkitd systemd systemd-sysv systemd-timesyncd usb-modeswitch usb-modeswitch-data xcvt
The following packages will be upgraded:
fwupd libgd3 libimlib2 libinput-bin libinput10 liblocale-gettext-perl libmagickcore-6.q16-6 libtext-charwidth-perl libtext-iconv-perl
libtiff5 libwacom-common libwebpdemux2 libwebpmux3 linux-source linux-source-5.15 perl perl-base xserver-xorg-core
xserver-xorg-input-libinput xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu
xserver-xorg-video-ati xserver-xorg-video-fbdev xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
xserver-xorg-video-radeon xserver-xorg-video-vesa
25 upgraded, 27 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 282 MB of archives.
After this operation, 222 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
-----

thanks

-Stan Johnson

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Try:
# aptitude why systemd

That may help answer the question.
Rick

On Sat, Feb 19, 2022, at 9:03 AM, Stan Johnson wrote:

Hello,

On a PowerBook G3 Pismo, I just upgraded Debian SID:
# apt-get update
# apt-get upgrade
# apt-get dist-upgrade

As part of the dist-upgrade (see below), at least one package requires systemd as a dependency, causing the removal of sysvinit-core.

After the dist-upgrade, I was able to remove systemd using a two-step process:
# apt-get purge systemd
Reboot and repeat:
# apt-get purge systemd

So there's a workaround, since I'm able to remove systemd eventually.
It's just an inconvenience for those of us who choose to run sysvinit
instead of systemd. IMO, systemd is slower and more intrusive on all
systems than sysvinit. And while it may be ok or even preferable for
larger (or corporate) systems, it is too slow for any m68k system or any powerpc system that is slower than about a Pismo (500 MHz with 1 GiB
memory), and I don't want to use it there, either, since I use a common Debian SID installation for all of my powerpc systems.

I can restore from a backup and re-run the dist-upgrade if anyone knows
how to locate the specific package(s) triggering the dependency; it is
likely one or more of the 25 packagees upgraded below:

-----
# apt-get dist-upgrade
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree... Done
Reading state information... Done
Calculating upgrade... Done
The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer required:
libperl5.32 libwebp6 linux-config-5.15 linux-source-5.15 orphan-sysvinit-scripts perl-modules-5.32
Use 'apt autoremove' to remove them.
The following packages will be REMOVED:
libwacom2 sysvinit-core
The following NEW packages will be installed:
dbus-user-session libjim0.79 libmbim-glib4 libmbim-proxy libmm-glib0 libnss-systemd libpam-systemd libperl5.34 libpolkit-agent-1-0
libqmi-glib5 libqmi-proxy libwacom-bin libwacom9 libwebp7 libxcvt0 linux-source-5.16 modemmanager perl-modules-5.34 pkexec policykit-1
polkitd systemd systemd-sysv systemd-timesyncd usb-modeswitch usb-modeswitch-data xcvt
The following packages will be upgraded:
fwupd libgd3 libimlib2 libinput-bin libinput10 liblocale-gettext-perl libmagickcore-6.q16-6 libtext-charwidth-perl libtext-iconv-perl
libtiff5 libwacom-common libwebpdemux2 libwebpmux3 linux-source linux-source-5.15 perl perl-base xserver-xorg-core
xserver-xorg-input-libinput xserver-xorg-video-amdgpu xserver-xorg-video-ati xserver-xorg-video-fbdev xserver-xorg-video-nouveau
xserver-xorg-video-radeon xserver-xorg-video-vesa
25 upgraded, 27 newly installed, 2 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
Need to get 282 MB of archives.
After this operation, 222 MB of additional disk space will be used.
Do you want to continue? [Y/n]
-----

thanks

-Stan Johnson

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello!

On 2/20/22 17:43, Stan Johnson wrote:

# aptitude why systemd
i logrotate Depends cron | anacron | cron-daemon | systemd-sysv
i A systemd-sysv PreDepends systemd

That's an or-condition, i.e. cron or anacron or cron-daemon or systemd-sysv, see also the debian/control file of the logrotate package [1].

FWIW, this discussion isn't specific to PowerPC, so it should be moved to debian-user or preferably, debian-devel.

In any case, you should just make sure that either of the three cron packages is installed, then you can uninstall the systemd-sysv package again.

Adrian

[1] https://salsa.debian.org/debian/logrotate/-/blob/master/debian/control#L19

--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/20/22 20:32, Stan Johnson wrote:

That's an or-condition, i.e. cron or anacron or cron-daemon or systemd-sysv, >> see also the debian/control file of the logrotate package [1].

I do have cron, anacron and cron-daemon installed, so the OR condition
should have been met. So perhaps a dependency is broken somewhere, but I don't know how to determine where the problem is.

Try uninstalling logrotate and systemd-sysv, then try installing the logrotate package and see whether the systemd-sysv package is going to be pulled in.

FWIW, this discussion isn't specific to PowerPC, so it should be moved to
debian-user or preferably, debian-devel.

I also use Debian SID on x86 and x64 systems. Only on PowerPC do I run
into the issue of "apt-get dist-upgrade" occasionally wanting to pull in systemd, but I have no objection to moving the discussion to debian-user
or debian-devel (I didn't do that originally because I thought since
powerpc is not a supported architecture they would not be able to help).

There is no specific behavior on systemd on PowerPC, so it's just coincidence.

In any case, you should just make sure that either of the three cron packages
is installed, then you can uninstall the systemd-sysv package again.

No, it appears to be more complicated than that.

Did you try uninstalling systemd-sysv? If that doesn't work, what is the error message?

Adrian

--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Small update...

On 21.02.22 10:22, Frank Scheiner wrote:

On 20.02.22 23:37, Stan Johnson wrote:

So there must have been a change in fwupd somewhere between version
1.7.4-1 and 1.7.5-3 that causes it to now require systemd. Please let me
know where I should report the issue.

[1] lists two dependency changes with 1.7.4-2:

```
fwupd (1.7.4-2) unstable; urgency=medium

* Add hard dependencies on libfwupd2 and libfwupdplugin5 built with
    us. Symbols suggest things should work, but maybe not. :-(
    Closes: #1003664
```

[1]: https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/f/fwupd/fwupd_1.7.5-3_changelog

Well, looks like these two dependencies are not the cause. But checking
the differences between the "fwupd" package in buster ([2]) and bullseye
([3]) there is a dependency on "libsystemd0" that is not included in the respective package for buster. Checking the changelog the build dep was introduced with 1.5.3-1:

```
fwupd (1.5.3-1) unstable; urgency=medium
[...]
- Add systemd build dependency
[...]
```

[2]: https://packages.debian.org/buster/fwupd

[3]: https://packages.debian.org/bullseye/fwupd

Cheers,
Frank

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi Stan, Rick,

spotted this by chance.

On 20.02.22 23:37, Stan Johnson wrote:

And now:
# dpkg --list | grep -w fwupd
ii fwupd 1.7.5-3 powerpc Firmware update daemon

So there must have been a change in fwupd somewhere between version
1.7.4-1 and 1.7.5-3 that causes it to now require systemd. Please let me
know where I should report the issue.

[1] lists two dependency changes with 1.7.4-2:

```
fwupd (1.7.4-2) unstable; urgency=medium

* Add hard dependencies on libfwupd2 and libfwupdplugin5 built with
us. Symbols suggest things should work, but maybe not. :-(
Closes: #1003664
```

[1]: https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/f/fwupd/fwupd_1.7.5-3_changelog

And in case the output from aptitude helps (it no longer lists logrotate):

# aptitude why systemd
i init PreDepends systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core
i A systemd-sysv PreDepends systemd

# aptitude why systemd-sysv
i init PreDepends systemd-sysv | sysvinit-core

Indeed, thanks Rick, that will be helpful in the future for me, too!

Cheers,
frank

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Feb 21, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Frank Scheiner <frank.scheiner@web.de> wrote:

Small update...

Well, looks like these two dependencies are not the cause. But checking
the differences between the "fwupd" package in buster ([2]) and bullseye ([3]) there is a dependency on "libsystemd0" that is not included in the respective package for buster. Checking the changelog the build dep was introduced with 1.5.3-1:

```

Yes, I saw that yesterday as well.

I assume it’s required for EFI firmware updates to work properly as the machine needs to be rebooted for these.

It should still work to boot into sysvinit even with systemd installed, however.

Adrian

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/21/22 17:18, Stan Johnson wrote:

In my experience, installation of either sysvinit-core or systemd
requires that the other be removed, so I don't think I can use sysvinit
with systemd installed. But since libsystemd0 is a separate package, it should be enough for fwupd to require libsystemd0 instead of systemd. If that's already supposed to be happening, then it's not clear why an installation of fwupd wanted to pull in systemd (perhaps systemd is a prerequisite for libsystemd0, even though I can delete systemd without deleting libsystemd0?).

This should only be an issue when you install systemd-sysv which replaces /sbin/init with systemd. If I remember correctly, there was even an option
for GRUB to switch between systemd and sysvinit.

You are not the first one wanting to avoid systemd, so people came up with solutions. This is also why I think debian-powerpc is the wrong list for systemd-related discussions. There has been tons of systemd-vs-sysvinit discussion on debian-devel, so most knowledgeable people for this topic
are on debian-devel.

I realize running Debian SID / bookworm is always likely to reveal
problems, and I have no problem with that. Thanks to Rick, Adrian and
Frank for looking into this issue.

Sure, no problem.

Adrian

--
.''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
`- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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