• Re: my immature thoughts on perl

    From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to coreyh@free.fr on Tue Apr 4 05:00:01 2023
    On Tue, Apr 04, 2023 at 10:35:39AM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
    For instance, in ruby (irb) this is quite smooth:

    irb(main):001:0> [1,2,3,4].map{|x|x+1}.reduce{|x,y|x+y}
    14


    And in scala (shell):

    scala> List(1,2,3,4).map{ _+1 }.reduce{_+_}
    res1: Int = 14

    And Tcl:

    unicorn:~$ rlwrap tclsh
    % ::tcl::mathop::+ {*}[lmap x {1 2 3 4} {expr {$x+1}}]
    14

    As long as we're collecting solutions.

    In perl there is no interactive shell, and the block statement seems
    strange:

    $ perl -le '@x=(1,2,3,4); $sum+=$_ for( map {$_+1} @x );print $sum'
    14

    I'm not as experienced with perl. I don't know how to shorten that.

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  • From coreyh@free.fr@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 4 04:40:01 2023
    Hello list,

    I am not that familiar with perl (though I like it), but I found it
    maybe have two flaws as follows.

    1. doesn't have an interactive shell.
    2. the block statement (like lambda) is ugly.

    For instance, in ruby (irb) this is quite smooth:

    irb(main):001:0> [1,2,3,4].map{|x|x+1}.reduce{|x,y|x+y}
    14


    And in scala (shell):

    scala> List(1,2,3,4).map{ _+1 }.reduce{_+_}
    res1: Int = 14

    In perl there is no interactive shell, and the block statement seems
    strange:

    $ perl -le '@x=(1,2,3,4); $sum+=$_ for( map {$_+1} @x );print $sum'
    14


    How do you think of it?

    Thanks
    Corey

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  • From Will Mengarini@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 4 06:10:01 2023
    * coreyh@free.fr <coreyh@free.fr> [23-04/04=Tu 10:35 +0800]:
    For instance, in ruby (irb) this is quite smooth:
    irb(main):001:0> [1,2,3,4].map{|x|x+1}.reduce{|x,y|x+y}
    14

    And in scala (shell):
    scala> List(1,2,3,4).map{ _+1 }.reduce{_+_}
    res1: Int = 14

    In perl there is no interactive shell [...]

    perl -le 'print eval $_ while <>'

    In perl [...] the block statement seems strange:
    $ perl -le '@x=(1,2,3,4); $sum+=$_ for( map {$_+1} @x );print $sum'
    14

    perl -le '@x=(1..4); print eval join "+", map $_+1, @x'

    Too bad this is two days late, but Perl is an April 1 kind of language.

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  • From David Christensen@21:1/5 to coreyh@free.fr on Tue Apr 4 05:40:01 2023
    On 4/3/23 19:35, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
    Hello list,

    I am not that familiar with perl (though I like it), but I found it
    maybe have two flaws as follows.

    1. doesn't have an interactive shell.
    2. the block statement (like lambda) is ugly.

    For instance, in ruby (irb) this is quite smooth:

    irb(main):001:0> [1,2,3,4].map{|x|x+1}.reduce{|x,y|x+y}
    14


    And in scala (shell):

    scala> List(1,2,3,4).map{ _+1 }.reduce{_+_}
    res1: Int = 14

    In perl there is no interactive shell, and the block statement seems
    strange:

    $ perl -le '@x=(1,2,3,4); $sum+=$_ for( map {$_+1} @x );print $sum'
    14


    How do you think of it?

    Thanks
    Corey


    That post would be better sent to the Perl Beginner's mailing list:

    https://lists.perl.org/list/beginners.html


    David

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  • From coreyh@free.fr@21:1/5 to Will Mengarini on Tue Apr 4 06:00:01 2023
    On 04/04/2023 11:50, Will Mengarini wrote:
    * coreyh@free.fr <coreyh@free.fr> [23-04/04=Tu 10:35 +0800]:
    For instance, in ruby (irb) this is quite smooth:
    irb(main):001:0> [1,2,3,4].map{|x|x+1}.reduce{|x,y|x+y}
    14

    And in scala (shell):
    scala> List(1,2,3,4).map{ _+1 }.reduce{_+_}
    res1: Int = 14

    In perl there is no interactive shell [...]

    perl -le 'print eval $_ while <>'

    In perl [...] the block statement seems strange:
    $ perl -le '@x=(1,2,3,4); $sum+=$_ for( map {$_+1} @x );print $sum'
    14

    perl -le '@x=(1..4); print eval join "+", map $_+1, @x'

    Too bad this is two days late, but Perl is an April 1 kind of language.

    I heard in perl never 'eval' a string. :)

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to coreyh@free.fr on Tue Apr 4 07:00:02 2023
    On Tue, Apr 04, 2023 at 11:52:57AM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:

    [...]

    I heard in perl never 'eval' a string. :)

    Never say never :)

    That said... there are better things to eval in Perl than
    a string, so if you have the choice, think twice. But you
    have got to think anyway if you are programming.

    In Tcl, OTOH, EIAS (Everything Is A String), so you've got
    to eval strings (don't take me too seriously: modern Tcl
    cheats, and it's more "Everything looks like a string",
    but I disgress).

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From john doe@21:1/5 to coreyh@free.fr on Tue Apr 4 09:10:01 2023
    On 4/4/23 04:35, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
    Hello list,


    Would it be possible to refrain from using the list for OT stuff.
    Your Perl threads are generating traffic that are not useful.

    --
    John Doe

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  • From Vincent Lefevre@21:1/5 to Will Mengarini on Tue Apr 4 10:40:01 2023
    On 2023-04-03 20:50:22 -0700, Will Mengarini wrote:
    * coreyh@free.fr <coreyh@free.fr> [23-04/04=Tu 10:35 +0800]:
    For instance, in ruby (irb) this is quite smooth:
    irb(main):001:0> [1,2,3,4].map{|x|x+1}.reduce{|x,y|x+y}
    14

    And in scala (shell):
    scala> List(1,2,3,4).map{ _+1 }.reduce{_+_}
    res1: Int = 14

    In perl there is no interactive shell [...]

    perl -le 'print eval $_ while <>'

    https://metacpan.org/pod/Shell::Perl

    https://stackoverflow.com/questions/73667/how-can-i-start-an-interactive-console-for-perl

    TIMTOWTDI :-)

    In perl [...] the block statement seems strange:
    $ perl -le '@x=(1,2,3,4); $sum+=$_ for( map {$_+1} @x );print $sum'
    14

    perl -le '@x=(1..4); print eval join "+", map $_+1, @x'

    Though I have already used the eval+join trick a few years ago, this
    is rather ugly. Using List::Util with "reduce" is probably better:

    https://metacpan.org/pod/List::Util

    --
    Vincent Lefèvre <vincent@vinc17.net> - Web: <https://www.vinc17.net/>
    100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: <https://www.vinc17.net/blog/>
    Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to Greg Wooledge on Tue Apr 4 13:30:01 2023
    On Tue, Apr 04, 2023 at 07:12:05AM -0400, Greg Wooledge wrote:
    On Tue, Apr 04, 2023 at 06:50:02AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
    In Tcl, OTOH, EIAS [...]

    The introduction of the {*} operator eliminated a lot of the need for
    eval. Instead of

    [...]

    Thanks for the reminder :)

    I think watching carefully Tcl's evolution teaches a lot about
    languages, the type of design decisions going into them and their
    (changing) context.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From Ken Peng@21:1/5 to tomas@tuxteam.de on Tue Apr 4 13:50:01 2023
    tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
    I think watching carefully Tcl's evolution teaches a lot about
    languages, the type of design decisions going into them and their
    (changing) context.

    I was surprised to see many people here still use TCL.
    Many years ago I used this language for sysadmin jobs.
    It was working just fine.


    --
    https://kenpeng.pages.dev/

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  • From Greg Wooledge@21:1/5 to tomas@tuxteam.de on Tue Apr 4 13:20:02 2023
    On Tue, Apr 04, 2023 at 06:50:02AM +0200, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
    In Tcl, OTOH, EIAS (Everything Is A String), so you've got
    to eval strings (don't take me too seriously: modern Tcl
    cheats, and it's more "Everything looks like a string",
    but I disgress).

    The introduction of the {*} operator eliminated a lot of the need for
    eval. Instead of

    eval myfunc $listvar

    now, you can do

    myfunc {*}$listvar

    which "expands" the list variable and passes each element as a separate argument. This is much cleaner, because it lets you decide where and
    when you want to perform that expansion. eval forces you to expand
    everything in the command where it's used.

    In the context of this thread, you can do things like:

    % namespace import ::tcl::mathop::+
    % + 1 2 3 4
    10
    % set nums {1 2 3 4}
    1 2 3 4
    % + {*}$nums
    10
    % + {*}[lmap x $nums {+ $x 1}]
    14

    Which is the most elegant way to express the desired piece of code in Tcl,
    as far as I'm aware. lmap returns a list, and {*} expands it for the
    mathop + command to use.

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  • From Andy Smith@21:1/5 to coreyh@free.fr on Tue Apr 4 15:50:01 2023
    Hello,

    On Tue, Apr 04, 2023 at 10:35:39AM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
    How do you think of it?

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Honestly, we aren't the "I'd Like An Argument Please" sketch; if we
    were then you'd have to be paying. As it stands I am only doing this
    in my spare time.

    That is, why are you asking people to convince you to like Perl?
    There are lots of languages and you appear to have found one you
    like better.

    Cheers,
    Andy

    --
    https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to Andy Smith on Fri Apr 7 21:30:01 2023
    Andy Smith wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to Emanuel Berg on Fri Apr 7 22:10:01 2023
    On Fri, Apr 07, 2023 at 09:28:59PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
    Andy Smith wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.


    Every categorical generalisation is wrong. (Even this one :) )

    Andy

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal


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  • From coreyh@free.fr@21:1/5 to Emanuel Berg on Sat Apr 8 01:10:01 2023
    On 08/04/2023 03:28, Emanuel Berg wrote:
    Andy Smith wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.

    The Language Wars Are Over: ChatGPT Won https://bourgoin.dev/posts/programming-languages/

    regards.

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to coreyh@free.fr on Sat Apr 8 07:40:01 2023
    On Sat, Apr 08, 2023 at 07:06:28AM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
    On 08/04/2023 03:28, Emanuel Berg wrote:
    Andy Smith wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.

    The Language Wars Are Over: ChatGPT Won https://bourgoin.dev/posts/programming-languages/

    Given the usual quality of Microsoft's output, it won't make
    a big difference.

    I'm looking forward towards the days that thing feeds back
    on itself and its output won't be much different from random
    noise (or perhaps from its first few eigenvectors).

    Personally, I'm not on speaking terms with that thing.

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to Andrew M.A. Cater on Sat Apr 8 07:40:02 2023
    On Fri, Apr 07, 2023 at 08:09:12PM +0000, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
    On Fri, Apr 07, 2023 at 09:28:59PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
    Andy Smith wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.


    Every categorical generalisation is wrong. (Even this one :) )

    Heh: I usually taunt people with "All generalizations suck".
    Great minds think alike, it seems.

    (I usually leave the "but hey, this is a generalization, too"
    as an exercise for the reader ;-)

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From davidson@21:1/5 to tomas@tuxteam.de on Sat Apr 8 08:10:01 2023
    On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
    On Sat, Apr 08, 2023 at 07:06:28AM +0800, coreyh@free.fr wrote:
    On 08/04/2023 03:28, Emanuel Berg wrote:
    Andy Smith wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.

    The Language Wars Are Over: ChatGPT Won
    https://bourgoin.dev/posts/programming-languages/

    Given the usual quality of Microsoft's output, it won't make
    a big difference.

    "It looks like you're writing a letter. Would you like some help?"

    I'm looking forward towards the days that thing feeds back
    on itself and its output won't be much different from random
    noise (or perhaps from its first few eigenvectors).

    Personally, I'm not on speaking terms with that thing.

    Clippy 2.0 has a hype train, and my BS detector is blazing like a
    forest fire.

    --
    I don't wanna hear about what the rich are doing
    I don't wanna go to where where the rich are going
    -- The Clash

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to tomas on Sat Apr 8 14:40:02 2023
    tomas wrote:

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best
    language. But everything else isn't as good.

    Every categorical generalisation is wrong. (Even this one
    :) )

    I usually taunt people with "All generalizations suck".

    Can't it be the exception to confirm the rule?

    But ... the exception should be the opposite, or maybe where
    the function is not defined - singularity, don't remember
    the word. No, that was it, right?

    Anyway, here the exception would then be

    All generalizations are bad, except the on that says they are.

    No, that makes sense, right?

    It's the exception!

    B)

    - counting the votes then ...

    - and, from the Z System, 19 Million Buckazoid for Lisp!

    - expected, they are always pro Lisp

    - it's the only planet system we know of where they do
    scientific research even

    - scientific research?

    - on Lisp

    - aah, oh :)

    - like we say, they are firmly in the Lisp camp. but +19
    noted, let's move on

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to coreyh on Sat Apr 8 14:50:01 2023
    coreyh wrote:

    I think you should use Ruby if you like Ruby better!

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best language.
    But everything else isn't as good.

    The Language Wars Are Over: ChatGPT Won https://bourgoin.dev/posts/programming-languages/

    Ha, but can't we do better, I would like all the properties
    (stuff possible to express and do) in a programming language
    encoded, and then count them to determine what language is the
    most powerful.

    Then we should take that language and simplify everything and
    make it shorter.

    So we start with everything, then make it smaller. it's the
    new maximalist/minimalist view which is debated so much in the
    media these days.

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to Andy Smith on Sat Apr 8 17:00:01 2023
    Andy Smith wrote:

    That is, why are you asking people to convince you to like
    Perl? There are lots of languages and you appear to have
    found one you like better.

    Maybe there is no answer in particular why Perl has
    it's trajectory. Maybe it can't be expressed in a formula.
    But I just get the feeling that it can?

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to Stefan Monnier on Sat Apr 8 18:50:01 2023
    Stefan Monnier wrote:

    Ha, but can't we do better, I would like all the properties
    (stuff possible to express and do) in a programming
    language encoded, and then count them to determine what
    language is the most powerful.

    We know that except for some particularly limited languages,
    they'll all mutually equivalent.

    Of course :)

    No, I mean on an applied level and readily available so
    from/using the language ...

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Stefan Monnier@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 8 18:30:01 2023
    Ha, but can't we do better, I would like all the properties
    (stuff possible to express and do) in a programming language
    encoded, and then count them to determine what language is the
    most powerful.

    We know that except for some particularly limited languages, they'll all mutually equivalent.


    Stefan

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 8 19:00:01 2023
    Ha, but can't we do better, I would like all the
    properties (stuff possible to express and do) in
    a programming language encoded, and then count them to
    determine what language is the most powerful.

    We know that except for some particularly limited
    languages, they'll all mutually equivalent.

    Of course :)

    No, I mean on an applied level and readily available so
    from/using the language ...

    Is the Unix model universal or limited, if it is limited, how
    close did we come to the limit?

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to Emanuel Berg on Sun Apr 9 07:20:02 2023
    On Sat, Apr 08, 2023 at 02:37:56PM +0200, Emanuel Berg wrote:
    tomas wrote:

    Perl is the best language, maybe Lisp is the best
    language. But everything else isn't as good.

    Every categorical generalisation is wrong. (Even this one
    :) )

    I usually taunt people with "All generalizations suck".

    Can't it be the exception to confirm the rule?

    There is a barber in Crete who shaves all men who don't
    shave themselves [1].

    Cheers

    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox
    --
    t

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  • From tomas@tuxteam.de@21:1/5 to davidson on Sun Apr 9 07:20:02 2023
    On Sat, Apr 08, 2023 at 06:08:31AM +0000, davidson wrote:

    [...]

    Clippy 2.0 has a hype train, and my BS detector is blazing like a
    forest fire.

    Thank you for that one: "ChatGPT: Clippy Strikes Back".

    Cheers
    --
    t

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to tomas on Sun Apr 9 09:50:02 2023
    tomas wrote:

    There is a barber in Crete who shaves all men who don't
    shave themselves [1]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barber_paradox

    Yeah, but that isn't really a paradox, is it?

    It's like all the programs that will increase inflation :)

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Stefan Monnier@21:1/5 to All on Sun Apr 9 17:20:01 2023
    I usually taunt people with "All generalizations suck".
    Can't it be the exception to confirm the rule?
    There is a barber in Crete who shaves all men who don't
    shave themselves [1].

    You're just pointing out that *impredicative* generalizations suck even
    more than the rest.


    Stefan

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  • From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to Stefan Monnier on Sun Apr 9 17:30:01 2023
    On Sun, Apr 09, 2023 at 11:18:14AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
    I usually taunt people with "All generalizations suck".
    Can't it be the exception to confirm the rule?
    There is a barber in Crete who shaves all men who don't
    shave themselves [1].


    You don't want to believe that - Epimenides the Cretan asserts that "all Cretans are liars"

    You're just pointing out that *impredicative* generalizations suck even
    more than the rest.


    Stefan


    All best, as ever,

    Andy

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to Stefan Monnier on Sun Apr 9 17:40:01 2023
    Stefan Monnier wrote:

    I usually taunt people with "All generalizations suck".

    Can't it be the exception to confirm the rule?

    There is a barber in Crete who shaves all men who don't
    shave themselves

    You're just pointing out that *impredicative*
    generalizations suck even more than the rest.

    While - and quite obvious to most observers - or I should say
    "clear", not obvious - still, it's enough to function as an
    example to the opposite.

    [ Note: This is assuming an inclusive superset. And to be
    honest, I stayed att that assumption since - indeed - how
    would that work - inheritance would be one the transparent
    or multiple interface allowed but in practice you tend to
    use, I don't know, two or three hundreds, tops? ]

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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  • From Emanuel Berg@21:1/5 to Andrew M.A. Cater on Sun Apr 9 17:50:01 2023
    Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

    You don't want to believe that - Epimenides the Cretan
    asserts that "all Cretans are liars"

    Face it, the Greek invented it, the Italians (Romans)
    perfected/spread it ...

    All honor to diplomacy, you are not going to expect me to say
    anything else, I think our advantages to the game - let's just
    say part of the game is getting the advantages.

    --
    underground experts united
    https://dataswamp.org/~incal

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