• Debian Trends updated

    From Daniel Baumann@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Wed Apr 7 19:20:02 2021
    On 4/7/21 2:03 PM, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I wonder if [...] we no longer want to accept some packaging practices, such as:
    - debhelper compat level << 9
    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)
    - no support for build-arch and build-indep

    excellent.. to all three: seconded.

    I volunteer to do myself and also sponsor qa uploads for anyone else for orphaned packages to do the above, after bullseye release, to help make
    it happen.

    Regards,
    Daniel

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Richard Laager@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Wed Apr 7 19:20:02 2021
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --t9ms8TS9tFCAhmwpJg5KqVJCayt9K6uoY
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
    Content-Language: en-US
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    On 4/7/21 7:03 AM, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I wonder if we should use the start of the next release cycle to decide
    that we no longer want to accept some packaging practices, such as:
    - debhelper compat level << 9
    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    +1 to those

    If we were able to go further, I'd like to see a requirement that
    packages be in a VCS (which, in practice, would be enforced by making it
    a requirement to have some Vcs-* in debian/control). But perhaps that's
    too far for people.

    - no support for build-arch and build-indep

    That seems fine, but I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to say for
    certain. I assume that these Just Work if I'm using modern debhelper?

    --
    Richard


    --t9ms8TS9tFCAhmwpJg5KqVJCayt9K6uoY--

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE1Ot9lOeOTujs4H+U+HlhmcBFhs4FAmBt5mcACgkQ+HlhmcBF hs5DYw/9FN5cLNh3XFuMlnMQLWzbFrZWarJklTdO+B9Be3LMRCygEVxAJq8ag2qn U1bJo7paS+x/1dfI3I0PC4RH+BKtePlE9mTE+w8WWcuvI06sq4Y9rTqgCMz0x8PA FSMxffLq6ArJCaH1X1BdfAJOYchhpXNB6Cz533IXMoDcaAZInqBJuBpDDAOuSNsr ScD6yBAhNq5X+mC5I4Ama9BVhiLpFSN0MeB6e11aYcRbAnSDA7SKNVuGi93pPh9B qD+pUve44fuVIzRnebY+5mMsZNuUotS+LKBS65+jDEhPutxYEQFT87gcAZo4/NlF 0D3Q915bkNxeQYu2KpNddDml3kjVCJnE7NZ9pgCbm+FUhwWWilK8BAQ9iE7+ZRR8 3l10M4A23FIAJLez8BtCuC2aXNJsSbhj/G4DFOS4cDLV9LXXlyv5zUpf9mbF6ZDR ZnD+Nr5h7Aug6nYnYZi9NSJRhCZmSNSqAT4dzzP5O7oXKm4YiLXMVSxUFDKGfIbN lbNRbA1Wjgq47n6rd37qitfPM6tFxpq283TTVy/Jh1soAlOwOKSaSyKT4PdVF0T/ eTKWvDlbKtUy/vqyul8ovY+Ujp0izbtkXkCkJky2osrn2RMQ1waawzryZ17zbC4T vdnPP2EbV/5obTPdv4ypJZFdSMMZJSqsB1TKeF9AGvIuxWf1rJA=
    =i31g
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bastian Blank@21:1/5 to Richard Laager on Thu Apr 8 09:10:02 2021
    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 12:05:43PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
    - no support for build-arch and build-indep
    That seems fine, but I'm not sure I'm knowledgeable enough to say for certain. I assume that these Just Work if I'm using modern debhelper?

    You mean "dh"? Yes.

    Bastian

    --
    Bones: "The man's DEAD, Jim!"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mattia Rizzolo@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Thu Apr 8 09:10:01 2021
    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I just updated Debian Trends: https://trends.debian.net/

    Thank you.
    I noted that the dates in the "smells" sections are still old. Could
    you perhaps refresh those data as well, so that we have a better idea if
    things today are even more "smelly"? :)

    I wonder if we should use the start of the next release cycle to decide
    that we no longer want to accept some packaging practices, such as:
    - debhelper compat level << 9

    I think it would be excessive to say "no longer want to accept" this.
    And, honestly, I'd leave this alone. old compat level are going away by themselves without further pushing, plus Niels is also being somewhat
    proactive to deprecate the very old ones.

    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    Also dpatch. And also 1.0+quilt (ugh). !

    - no support for build-arch and build-indep

    Isn't this already a rc bug for a while? ISTR dpkg is basically
    refusing to build them now, and it has been a Policy MUST for years.

    They should already have an open bug, perhaps you could double check
    this part. Or maybe I don't understand what you are talking about.

    --
    regards,
    Mattia Rizzolo

    GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18 4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540 .''`.
    More about me: https://mapreri.org : :' : Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri `. `'`
    Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia `-

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEi3hoeGwz5cZMTQpICBa54Yx2K60FAmBuq4QACgkQCBa54Yx2 K63Efg//asgZvdczJHU/j+IIIi+ipd/eOe9KVCBdMeqCVHB9tKgiYPOXv2uuIjEC N7aa9lGZ2oMyNcXXkGiEUrXvwIqbVF1l5ZSjFGY/oKrRz9GqgyQxt573WEcKdyue eUMlfxxk8BGEx3cy2CHoUUNc1KT5tIOQTRWBC37yS2xqSkiqOfpLDKmxsW46CV5L BT2A4voc4D6mVV7uQdFnQ0vfMj9sLX5bDsGewk6MVJ2nlpUahn/VD1r0ariNzJD/ VrhuvIkLLT/ESTJlyhTYn8yxVFVdBCN49FNkW18lMDiH+2F9rNm4k4buUaRg5LNe 8eGVLzhkHFcZhTtYJOXbHN0hgzJrQFpgkXvFSRyLESkUb5sPT0r8rvSMGJefyVF6 n33vtRKdhBAyilK5RXqcfP6/sX4U+iAmu0YbpqxtuSUqdYxqskt1sHwM7oEq+y0q 2XA8SxtAchEbGPQ572aFyB78rjeRLVdKMwRW+Guj2P8Jo3QpA65eRcTVkMjiTuPQ i00F6ds2cPuaqVYg3Hid0CKwpFWZ1A6x77UimnWKs+zPcZ2XN8Y
  • From Andrey Rahmatullin@21:1/5 to Mattia Rizzolo on Thu Apr 8 09:30:04 2021
    On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 09:06:46AM +0200, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    Also dpatch. And also 1.0+quilt (ugh). !
    What's left then? Only packages that don't patch the upstream sources at
    all?


    --
    WBR, wRAR

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQJhBAABCgBLFiEEolIP6gqGcKZh3YxVM2L3AxpJkuEFAmBusCItFIAAAAAAFQAP cGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3Jnd3JhckBkZWJpYW4ub3JnAAoJEDNi9wMaSZLh vZwP/iKbyQozpV/s8Nd0uY+zPMmaPg3iuSBqlKi2brJJd+EO49crMm+zSMIs8Cv2 a8Oc2rP+j3sPIGQQNv78pU++B+1brEx4IIp3nPWeR5TEQuIgvZzgIjfdrY5jesRA PnRe3FWq3zyfxpRRObSFE25CKB8RkObaBecXLM97tqVlYcJaaj0IcuYX++XQGr29 HKAyX6FuwycJt6LxkyxWwDTjVykaUFdUptMHmPWderBRuYSEl2uQETXMsUNgSOJE 8hZzqD4hGeRh9Wf6uZCdpHYqfuq3Q/O7j2EW2jwZTwJ1D3mpqVColz+gkrSLU7MY 1kknsis7tqtu2Ul7N8fAc2rZnGBCqIlh6NZzcNshRqmJRn/WNKDFA2YNrSUHB+W3 xdZULTB5Zt942wFKAV6jdtB+enl5M5WY37qUChBaGkzul/r2dRvDyglDSOw9ag+A xbGlgfaoZUw9T1m7CaVNpfEvmYC0cW3X2rKAtyPbnWqs3kxlHv1MwE/an2bHKlLm XYtT+e4OIp3Ia4sikJKVWa9KL3fvyMGRnIk6gbDIz/Lzuvr8c9hMMiM1Cpt1o55o sluw46F9hm1HBEC4lyqKYYzkpCYcWm3q8NCVGMoxK/OGYTyQM1Sb2aVDVLs4kvSA iCbVBlxganoOiLHbSN9XtGzBUIEv9+twM2D9EgVymgJNvKvz
    =faqD
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mattia Rizzolo@21:1/5 to Andrey Rahmatullin on Thu Apr 8 09:40:01 2021
    On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 12:26:31PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
    On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 09:06:46AM +0200, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    Also dpatch. And also 1.0+quilt (ugh). !
    What's left then? Only packages that don't patch the upstream sources at
    all?

    Really, what's the benefit of 1.0+quilt or 1.0+dpatch over 3.0+quilt?…

    Apologies if I'm missing something obvious: I can somewhat understand
    people who like 1.0 with direct changes (even if some people find it
    confusing, that's somewhat fine by me and I can live with them), so I'm
    not really pushing to get rid of them. But 1.0 with a patch system
    feels just trying to duplicate 3.0 for the sake of old times u.u
    Especially because having the patch system handled in d/rules is
    somewhat prone to confusion for patch/unpatch and IME troublesome to
    rebase the patches.

    --
    regards,
    Mattia Rizzolo

    GPG Key: 66AE 2B4A FCCF 3F52 DA18 4D18 4B04 3FCD B944 4540 .''`.
    More about me: https://mapreri.org : :' : Launchpad user: https://launchpad.net/~mapreri `. `'`
    Debian QA page: https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=mattia `-

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEi3hoeGwz5cZMTQpICBa54Yx2K60FAmBusasACgkQCBa54Yx2 K616wg//fnqNPusxqGMOQNuA/MHuhBk9TzgjO9Q63azHNAXHs33mN8LaCxo9p3yM p/487lcZtLzmERtIsVe2vEdXGFKtgxDyGHbUkEav9OVDVFzKyNHey7jnP9xJGNnb T9P5Hfvy0u48vKavt5CxqF7aaVF/Lirdjj7qDJSLiV3YGlWLD6eA6f0rAoAJQ3du yGJtOvnOZ5rocLOHm/9Sf8EkBA+Psxjhq5nXTo//MFLLhbR5x7tI+J3WRUAMJVWt bMD9Oi/QrtVvAM7sqqGIsw+OYzN3ebU4K+AYYicNfKlVuWrBS3UDnPuU9Xmf78W0 XsrHztJo0lm772EaMDTD4wMd7i4o+a46GOtJafWi9JXAvIXD5cNLkRJLiOLlqOnG 6fa9lEDpoMijvgwj5zb3P+UgUDwLOpwfnPnvzkRDEEnZSYraX3SxDeeoyItZd43o MMdUTcJUJtQClz76/hwK6wgWEmmyQRdWhWycItNc6HjCIpsSS9Pe1Iq979m+gLdh crv1xuKdWxffThqMx2+ozd/ocvUVzxFoFFdOuujUPBG3FwjdtCG
  • From Bastian Blank@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Thu Apr 8 12:00:01 2021
    Hi Lucas

    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    For this I disagree. At least until we have something acceptable that
    can be used in modern git workflows including operations like cherry
    picking and merge requests.

    The 3.0 source formats include nothing usable for the above, are way to pedantic about versions and overall produce way too much pain.

    Bastian

    --
    Where there's no emotion, there's no motive for violence.
    -- Spock, "Dagger of the Mind", stardate 2715.1

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lucas Nussbaum@21:1/5 to Mattia Rizzolo on Thu Apr 8 15:00:02 2021
    Hi,

    On 08/04/21 at 09:06 +0200, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I just updated Debian Trends: https://trends.debian.net/

    Thank you.
    I noted that the dates in the "smells" sections are still old. Could
    you perhaps refresh those data as well, so that we have a better idea if things today are even more "smelly"? :)

    I wonder if we should use the start of the next release cycle to decide that we no longer want to accept some packaging practices, such as:
    - debhelper compat level << 9

    I think it would be excessive to say "no longer want to accept" this.
    And, honestly, I'd leave this alone. old compat level are going away by themselves without further pushing, plus Niels is also being somewhat proactive to deprecate the very old ones.

    Indeed, There has been a mass bug filing about removal of compat 5 and
    6. See #965564 for example.

    - no support for build-arch and build-indep

    Isn't this already a rc bug for a while? ISTR dpkg is basically
    refusing to build them now, and it has been a Policy MUST for years.

    They should already have an open bug, perhaps you could double check
    this part. Or maybe I don't understand what you are talking about.

    I'm talking about this: https://lintian.debian.org/tags/debian-rules-missing-recommended-target.html

    This is indeed required by policy: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-source.html#main-building-script-debian-rules

    But there are still 411 packages currently in testing that don't provide
    those targets (according to lintian). There are 435 in unstable (most
    likely including the 411 that are also in testing).

    So this sounds like an easy target for a mass bug filing at the
    beginning of the bookworm cycle.

    Lucas

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sean Whitton@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Sat Apr 10 04:30:02 2021
    Hello Lucas,

    On Wed 07 Apr 2021 at 02:03PM +02, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:

    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    There are still some reasons to use this source format, and so I think
    if we mandated this all that would happen is people would switch to 1.0 (native) which is, arguably, even worse.

    --
    Sean Whitton

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lucas Nussbaum@21:1/5 to Mattia Rizzolo on Sat Apr 10 11:00:02 2021
    Hi,

    On 08/04/21 at 09:06 +0200, Mattia Rizzolo wrote:
    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I just updated Debian Trends: https://trends.debian.net/

    Thank you.
    I noted that the dates in the "smells" sections are still old. Could
    you perhaps refresh those data as well, so that we have a better idea if things today are even more "smelly"? :)

    I just updated those (and it's now more easy to update those in the
    future)

    Lucas

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

    iQIzBAABCgAdFiEE/t7ByzN7z1CfQ8IkORS1MvTfvpkFAmBxZhEACgkQORS1MvTf vpmH1Q/+IaqXBLRzA0EVy6vI8oCeqnY4s89Ds197WJZdO9qInlFw8hsTv3U77bLh hRgrfl80EScd36LW2o7RICFOKGRpTkxatMVBCbijrHCSV5+MC7FMOxe8S7eSIAXx ewzk98PYc923TeY/cDIpnik+LYMk2vPAqy9nl6rAKZvIlMo+X+XfT0pyJ2kHf/P6 hCmXhNMWQAquSLK2FEL5i5azX3b0/7gYwdaj0qBdLbp1NkyQrV8omtBIXe8EcLuB qv/1QohK8rYbU0uwwSI6zzts4UYht7wy7I/CD2CW/55m6KBuQ/GxYpNNlpuzVitI 6WwIF3pxskMUs4AuUw5mpbWC+GChh1J0eg9+t4barNkAXxk62cNWkCavZCoMpK+7 mNDZGVtgBz903I6im4J6cEA/9r7h0ujP+h2ovRYVSKXPjGbCyYevuruc88UJy30Q gJnPUpxjlsP50c66CMCnJB2CSjE9GenCCEOzzjs/Ocaz7l4heD3/cJIRslEPD4dG jjEbyc2PB9wzZ5xhYl/ozB+jnm18QmnXWv3LeGpzRWQ8MCfAUZXRG+mEA2c/ALTm NMzromyXnUaSdME/c7PBU5NlsQvI4Ywe7A7Hu0MwcmPhWoiSRH43bwsaCsZ76To9 ospPx2T07mMhYb6UIBBqWsfSh4fWWGg0yftRz/gR018pCLeSWns=
    =3kQ9
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Sat Apr 17 08:10:01 2021
    Hi Lucas,

    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I just updated Debian Trends: https://trends.debian.net/

    Thanks a lot for Debian Trends. I have checked the code smells[1] for
    I think this is a false positive:

    probcons (U) does not use the machine-readable copyright format. (source version: 1.12-13)

    since this version has a DEP5 copyright. Am I missing something?

    Thanks again for your work on this
    Andreas.

    [1] https://trends.debian.net/packages-with-smells-sorted-by-maintainer.txt
    [2] https://sources.debian.org/src/probcons/1.12-13/debian/copyright/

    --
    http://fam-tille.de

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lucas Nussbaum@21:1/5 to Andreas Tille on Sat Apr 17 10:30:02 2021
    On 17/04/21 at 08:08 +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:
    Hi Lucas,

    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    I just updated Debian Trends: https://trends.debian.net/

    Thanks a lot for Debian Trends. I have checked the code smells[1] for
    I think this is a false positive:

    probcons (U) does not use the machine-readable copyright format. (source version: 1.12-13)

    since this version has a DEP5 copyright. Am I missing something?

    Hi Andreas,

    Trends is just based on what lintian reports, and in that case, lintian
    thinks that's the case, see https://lintian.debian.net/sources/probcons

    It looks like this package ships both debian/copyright and debian/probcons.copyright. While debian/copyright is DEP5-compliant, debian/probcons.copyright isn't because of the first two lines: https://sources.debian.org/src/probcons/1.12-13/debian/probcons.copyright/

    Lucas

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andreas Tille@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Sat Apr 17 11:00:01 2021
    Hi Lucas,

    On Sat, Apr 17, 2021 at 09:36:10AM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    Trends is just based on what lintian reports, and in that case, lintian thinks that's the case, see https://lintian.debian.net/sources/probcons

    Thanks for the clarification.

    It looks like this package ships both debian/copyright and debian/probcons.copyright. While debian/copyright is DEP5-compliant, debian/probcons.copyright isn't because of the first two lines: https://sources.debian.org/src/probcons/1.12-13/debian/probcons.copyright/

    Argh, fixed in Git.

    Good we talked about this

    Andreas.

    --
    http://fam-tille.de

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Wouter Verhelst@21:1/5 to Lucas Nussbaum on Tue Apr 20 15:20:01 2021
    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 02:03:47PM +0200, Lucas Nussbaum wrote:
    [ M-F-T set to -qa@ ]

    Hi,

    I just updated Debian Trends: https://trends.debian.net/

    I wonder if we should use the start of the next release cycle to decide
    that we no longer want to accept some packaging practices, such as:
    - debhelper compat level << 9

    Sure.

    - source format 1.0 with direct changes in .diff.gz (no patch system)

    No. Stay off.

    - no support for build-arch and build-indep

    Sure.

    --
    w@uter.{be,co.za}
    wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Lucas Nussbaum@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 4 22:30:01 2022
    Hi,

    I just updated https://trends.debian.net/

    Lucas

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)