• DebConf and legal structure for the project (was: General resolution: C

    From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Jonathan Dowland on Fri Apr 8 19:20:01 2022
    Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes:

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Debconf is not formally a part of Debian,
    and so cannot be bound by the outcome of a GR anyway.

    This is the sort of thing that would be good to clear up as part of the
    process of making Debian a more formal organization. I don't want to harp
    on this too much, but this sort of informality can be rather dangerous
    under US law because there are all sorts of unwanted liability
    implications to not having anything formally in writing that creates
    limited liability and shields people from personal liability. I suspect
    the same or similar problems may exist in other countries as well.

    There are a bunch of different ways we could structure this that don't necessarily have to involve putting DebConf in the same organization as
    Debian, but we really should have some formal and legal setup and
    agreement. For example, some conventions that move all over the world
    form a local legal organization each year that has an agreement with some permanent standing organization so that the convention liability can be isolated from the parent organization (which given all the things that can
    go wrong with a large physical gathering may be a good idea).

    Anyway, a lawyer familiar with non-profit law and with conventions (which
    are fairly common for non-profit organizations) will probably have helpful opinions about all of this and likely would be able to advise us how to
    make everything more robust. I'm sure they see similar problems
    regularly; a non-profit dedicated to a particular purpose that holds
    associated conventions in various countries each year is a fairly common
    setup (I can think of two or three others just off the top of my head).
    Maybe Software in the Public Interest is sufficient and they could tell us
    that (although I'm dubious).

    It's hard to shake the feeling that we've just gotten quite lucky over the lifetime of the project (which is not very surprising; liability problems
    are one of those "low likelihood, high impact" kinds of issues), and
    shouldn't rely on that luck continuing.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From martin f krafft@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 8 23:30:01 2022
    Regarding the following, written by "Russ Allbery" on 2022-04-08 at 10:17 Uhr -0700:
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Debconf is not formally a part of
    Debian, and so cannot be bound by the outcome of a GR anyway.

    This is the sort of thing that would be good to clear up as part of
    the process of making Debian a more formal organization.

    … I recommend you don't even start trying. Not only is it going to
    be a massive bikeshed, DebConf also basically requires a legal
    entity in whatever country we choose for our next holiday camp. And
    so yeah, DebConf is never going to be formally a part of Debian.

    Are we really still talking about Russia? What about all the other
    atrocities in the world, first and foremost those being done by the
    Western nations, where most of Debian's assets are being held in
    custody of some form or another?

    --
    .''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
    : :' : proud Debian developer
    `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

    "...the prevailing catholic odor - incense, wax, centuries of mild
    bleating from the lips of the flock."
    -- thomas pynchon, gravity's rainbow

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    <p class="quotelead" style="padding: 0 0.5em; margin-bottom: -1em; font-size: 80%">Regarding the following, written by &quot;Russ Allbery&quot; on 2022-04-08 at 10:17 Uhr -0700:</p>
    <blockquote class="quote initial" style="padding: 0 0.5em; margin: 0; font-style: italic; border-left: 2px solid #666; color: #666; font-size: 80%">
    <p style="padding: 0 0.5em">Correct me if I&#39;m wrong, but Debconf is not formally a part of &gt; Debian, and so cannot be bound by the outcome of a GR anyway.</p>
    <p style="padding: 0 0.5em">This is the sort of thing that would be good to clear up as part of the process of making Debian a more formal organization.</p>
    </blockquote>
    <p style="padding: 0 0.5em">… I recommend you don&#39;t even start trying. Not only is it going to be a massive bikeshed, DebConf also basically requires a legal entity in whatever country we choose for our next holiday camp. And so yeah, DebConf is
    never going to be formally a part of Debian.</p>
    <p style="padding: 0 0.5em">Are we really still talking about Russia? What about all the other atrocities in the world, first and foremost those being done by the Western nations, where most of Debian&#39;s assets are being held in custody of some form
    or another?</p>
    <div class="signature" style="color: #999; font-family: monospace; white-space: pre; margin: 1em 0 0 0; font-size: 80%"><span class="leader">-- </span><pre style="line-height: 125%; padding: 0 1em"><code style="white-space: pre-wrap"> .&#39;&#39;`.
    martin f. krafft &amp;lt;madduck@d.o&amp;gt; @martinkrafft
    : :&#39; : proud Debian developer
    `. `&#39;` http://people.debian.org/~madduck
    `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

    &quot;...the prevailing catholic odor - incense, wax, centuries of mild
    bleating from the lips of the flock.&quot;
    -- thomas pynchon, gravity&#39;s rainbow </code></pre>
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    </body>
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  • From tytso@21:1/5 to Russ Allbery on Tue Apr 12 14:00:01 2022
    On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 10:17:46AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
    Anyway, a lawyer familiar with non-profit law and with conventions (which
    are fairly common for non-profit organizations) will probably have helpful opinions about all of this and likely would be able to advise us how to
    make everything more robust. I'm sure they see similar problems
    regularly; a non-profit dedicated to a particular purpose that holds associated conventions in various countries each year is a fairly common setup (I can think of two or three others just off the top of my head).
    Maybe Software in the Public Interest is sufficient and they could tell us that (although I'm dubious).

    This is a pretty well-explored problem space. There are a number of organizations that help academic or FOSS organizations run
    conferences. Examples of these include Usenix (which used to be the organization that ran the Linux Kernel Maintainer's Summit), The Linux Foundation (which now runs the Maintainer's Summit as well as Linux
    Plumbers Conference), and Association Headquarters (which is a
    for-profit company that helps non-profits run conferences as well as
    being their "legal entity", ala SPI). These organizations don't need
    to be homed in the country where the conference takes place. The
    Linux Foundation is based in the US, but has run (or will be running) conferences in Canada, Korea, Japan, China, Ireland, Germany, the
    Czech Republic, etc.

    These organizations all employ profession event/conference planners,
    and can handle signing legal contracts with hotels, caterers,
    restaurants, etc., thus shielding the techies from legal liability, as
    well as generally being able to do a much better job at running a
    conference compared to techie who tries to pretend to be an event
    planner on the side. The tradeoff is that while the conferences do
    tend to be more polished, having professional, paid staff is
    expensive. And so typically, to go down this path, the conferences
    need to hit up corporate sponsors to help pay for the event.

    Using one of these professional organizations is going to
    significantly change the characgter of Debconf. Whether that's a
    positive or a negative really depends on what we want Debconf to be,
    and how much we want get on the corporate sponsorship bandwagon. I'm
    not aware of organizations that try to organize conferences "on the
    cheap", since there is inevitably overhead associated with setting up
    a legal entity, and then employing someone who understands how to work
    with hotels, caterers, restaurants, A/V folks, etc.

    There are some regional Linux User's Group that manage to hold
    conferences where they have a legal entity to sign the contracts with
    the hotels, but they have the advantage of not changing locales
    regularly, so they can build up long-standing relationships with local conference centers or local companies (for those events which are
    small enough that they can just use an auditorium and meeting rooms at
    a friendly company or university).

    Cheers,

    - Ted

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