• Question to all candidates: Code of Conduct and Community Team - how do

    From Andrew M.A. Cater@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 19 20:40:01 2022
    All,

    We've had the Code of Conduct for about eight years now and the Community Team for about as long. There are still significant differences about how some people feel about them, despite the Code of Conduct having been adopted by the Project as a whole.

    How do _you_ feel about the Code of Conduct - and the role of a Community Team?

    More widely: where something is adopted by the Project but opposition remains - how would you deal with differences of opinion and attempt to reconcile different viewpoints to consensus?

    All the very best, as ever,

    Andy Cater

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  • From Hideki Yamane@21:1/5 to Andrew M.A. Cater on Sun Mar 20 11:00:01 2022
    Hi,

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 19:34:03 +0000
    "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
    We've had the Code of Conduct for about eight years now and the Community Team
    for about as long. There are still significant differences about how some people feel about them, despite the Code of Conduct having been adopted by the
    Project as a whole.

    How do _you_ feel about the Code of Conduct - and the role of a Community Team?

    Well, we have the CoC, but all we do not read and think about it repeatedly,
    contrast to DFSG and Social Contract because the CoC itself is a kind of
    "common sense", IMHO.

    CoC itself is good, however, we've just created it - have the form but not
    the spirit (in Japanese "$BJ):n$C$F:2$rF~$l$:(B"). If we want to use it effectively,
    we should do some training during the onboarding process (and it's better to
    do it for existing members in each several years). We need more communication
    about it with our contributors.


    We need a Community Team to deal with some troubles for the project, and
    they do hard work (thank you), but I need more transparency about what they
    are doing (and did). Maybe it would be a sensitive and difficult thing but
    it's a necessary thing.



    More widely: where something is adopted by the Project but opposition remains -
    how would you deal with differences of opinion and attempt to reconcile different viewpoints to consensus?

    That is like a law - our parliament adopts something, but opposition remains ;)
    And we are an all different people and have a unique opinion, sometimes
    conflict with each other. Yes, there is a "gap," so all we apparently should
    recognize it. Currently, it's not (to me, at least).


    And if someone would do some violation to CoC, just banning is not healing.
    Asking them to go for counseling by professionals with project money is better,
    IMO. We are good at coding, writing, making some systems - but not counselors.
    After dealing with some cognitive trouble, then re-start talking.

    Maybe before and during their duties, the community team members would be better
    to get counseling since dealing with such trouble make them sick (or something
    wrong feelings), IMHO.


    To summarize:
    - Make the situation clear: what's wrong, and what it should be.
    - Train ourselves: to think about what is CoC and why we need it
    - We don't have to do all the work by only ourselves.
    Ask the professionals that we are not good at (of course I'll do so :)


    --
    Hideki Yamane <henrich@iijmio-mail.jp>

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  • From Alastair McKinstry@21:1/5 to Hideki Yamane on Thu Mar 24 08:40:01 2022
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    On 20 March 2022 09:56:53 UTC, Hideki Yamane <henrich@iijmio-mail.jp> wrote: >Hi,

    On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 19:34:03 +0000
    "Andrew M.A. Cater" <amacater@einval.com> wrote:
    We've had the Code of Conduct for about eight years now and the Community Team
    for about as long. There are still significant differences about how some
    people feel about them, despite the Code of Conduct having been adopted by the
    Project as a whole.

    How do _you_ feel about the Code of Conduct - and the role of a Community Team?

    Well, we have the CoC, but all we do not read and think about it repeatedly, contrast to DFSG and Social Contract because the CoC itself is a kind of "common sense", IMHO.

    CoC itself is good, however, we've just created it - have the form but not the spirit (in Japanese "仏作って魂を入れず"). If we want to use it effectively,
    we should do some training during the onboarding process (and it's better to do it for existing members in each several years). We need more communication about it with our contributors.


    We need a Community Team to deal with some troubles for the project, and
    they do hard work (thank you), but I need more transparency about what they are doing (and did). Maybe it would be a sensitive and difficult thing but it's a necessary thing.



    More widely: where something is adopted by the Project but opposition remains -
    how would you deal with differences of opinion and attempt to reconcile
    different viewpoints to consensus?

    That is like a law - our parliament adopts something, but opposition remains ;)
    And we are an all different people and have a unique opinion, sometimes conflict with each other. Yes, there is a "gap," so all we apparently should recognize it. Currently, it's not (to me, at least).


    And if someone would do some violation to CoC, just banning is not healing. Asking them to go for counseling by professionals with project money is better,
    IMO. We are good at coding, writing, making some systems - but not counselors.
    After dealing with some cognitive trouble, then re-start talking.

    Maybe before and during their duties, the community team members would be better
    to get counseling since dealing with such trouble make them sick (or something
    wrong feelings), IMHO.


    To summarize:
    - Make the situation clear: what's wrong, and what it should be.
    - Train ourselves: to think about what is CoC and why we need it
    - We don't have to do all the work by only ourselves.
    Ask the professionals that we are not good at (of course I'll do so :)


    --
    Hideki Yamane <henrich@iijmio-mail.jp>


    --
    mail: alastair@sceal.ie, matrix: @alastair:sceal.ie
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    <html><head></head><body><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 20 March 2022 09:56:53 UTC, Hideki Yamane &lt;henrich@iijmio-mail.jp&gt; wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
    padding-left: 1ex;">
    <pre dir="auto" class="k9mail">Hi,<br><br>On Sat, 19 Mar 2022 19:34:03 +0000<br>"Andrew M.A. Cater" &lt;amacater@einval.com&gt; wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #729fcf; padding-left: 1ex;"
    We've had the Code of Conduct for about eight years now and the Community Team<br>for about as long. There are still significant differences about how some<br>people feel about them, despite the Code of Conduct having been adopted by the
  • From felix.lechner@lease-up.com@21:1/5 to amacater@einval.com on Fri Mar 25 06:40:01 2022
    Hi Andy,

    On Sat, Mar 19, 2022 at 12:36 PM Andrew M.A. Cater <amacater@einval.com> wrote:

    We've had the Code of Conduct for about eight years now and the Community Team
    for about as long. There are still significant differences about how some people feel about them, despite the Code of Conduct having been adopted by the
    Project as a whole.

    How do _you_ feel about the Code of Conduct - and the role of a Community Team?

    More widely: where something is adopted by the Project but opposition remains -
    how would you deal with differences of opinion and attempt to reconcile different viewpoints to consensus?

    Sorry about the delayed response. I had to think about a good way to
    balance the parts.

    First off, I'll point out that you recently received a delegation to
    the Community Team. [1] Please accept my congratulations!

    Like some recent questions about legal matters here, your question may
    also not belong in the public realm. According to Debian custom, our disciplinary process is entirely private and generally not even open to
    the accused. My answer here can never be complete, but like
    before—feathers and all—I'll try to do my best.

    The Code of Conduct reads great but I disagree with how it is applied.
    I think it's one of those proverbial cases where "the way to h--- is
    paved with good intentions."

    My concerns revolve mostly about the Code's arbitrary and capricious enforcement, which appears to apply only to some folks and never to
    people in leadership positions (except for me, more below).

    I also think the Code should be simpler. I would prefer something like
    George Carlin's "Seven Words You Can't Say on TV" (warning, offensive)
    [2] plus maybe another dozen words or so. Personally, I dislike "wtf" a
    lot, but it is popular with some of my friends.

    Your team, however, is taking the opposite approach. You are making the
    Code longer and even more open-ended. Earlier today, you posted a
    message [3] with a link to what appears to be your team's proprietary interpretation [4] of our Code of Conduct. Did that text receive any
    kind of community review?

    To me, your "interpretation" looks too pliable to serve as a reliable
    basis for any disciplinary action. It is "a living document" and offers
    several "non-exhaustive lists." It could hardly be more clear that the
    rules are of your own team's making and subject to your adjustment, as
    needed.

    Ideally, I'd like to see some rules governing the conduct of the
    Community Team, as well.

    For example, I found it worrisome that you investigate members. In
    January of 2021, I received an unsolicited email that I perceived as
    fishing: "I don't know if other incidents have happened since this, but
    I wanted to know if everything was ok from your point of view."

    At the time, it seemed like the person was being considered for a
    delegation. The message read like a background check to me. I declined
    to cooperate with the investigation, and never told the affected
    member. The delegation went to someone else.

    I am also uncomfortable that you, as a Community Team member, would look
    to the candidates for answers. Maybe I would be your boss, but you
    should really seek input from the people. I plan to listen to the
    members.

    In Fremont, we hold monthly "Coffee with the Cops" events to foster
    trust and stronger community ties. At those events, I like to tease the
    Chief of Police that the library has many books on how to reach a
    "consent of the governed."

    I wish that our Community Team, too, would embrace better relationships
    with the public. You should especially reach out to your critics. Please appease them—or explain to me why they are crazy—and you won't have any problems with me.

    Despite any worries you may have, my goal is not to abolish the Debian
    Account Managers or to get rid of the Community Team. I would like to
    cure Debian of what I perceive to be a dangerous and persistent social condition. As outlined in Eckart Tolle's books (especially, the second)
    no task is more hazardous than to show a society its own mirror.

    I, too, sometimes pick the wrong words. Please help me with that.

    Let's make Debian a happier place together!

    Finally, this reply would not be complete if I did not address my own situation.

    By running, I ceded some rights to my privacy when I applied for the
    job. As potentially your sole elected representative, my own conduct is
    a matter of public interest, even if I do not like it. In the second
    half of 2021, I was censured by the Debian Account Managers (DAM) for an interaction on IRC. I do not wish to re-litigate it here or anywhere
    else.

    I also ask that no one else does, please.

    At the same time, I believe that voters should be free to discuss their candidate's flaws without any fear of reprisal. After careful
    consideration, I hereby declassify all parts of my private censure to
    which I could reasonably have rights, but please without violating the
    rights of others. (Yes, that includes my goofy letter with the video
    from "Ferris Bueller's Day Off.") This message is signed.

    In the spirit of transparency that I hope is a theme in my campaign, I
    included at the bottom of this message my redacted plea for mercy to the d-private list. (I received no reply.) It outlines some of my grievances
    with our enforcement activity.

    If elected, I look forward to working with you, Andy, with the Debian
    Account Managers, and with the Community Team to resolve those issues
    together. I know you all love Debian, too.

    The message below may also help you and everyone else find more answers
    to the questions you posed here.

    Thank you for asking about a topic that is dear to my heart!

    Kind regards,
    Felix Lechner

    [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2022/01/msg00000.html
    [1] WARNING: offensive, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_dirty_words
    [3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2022/03/msg00081.html
    [4] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct_interpretation

    * * *

    Hi [Debian Account Manager],

    Throughout the process of my DAM warning and the melee that followed,
    no one ever asked for my side of the story. This message is intended
    to complete the record.

    You will also find a request for mercy, at your pleasure.

    [excerpt from violation notice omitted]

    From my perspective, I sent the apology at the earliest possible time.
    I was not contacted by anyone from DAM or the Community Team until
    after the warning was issued.

    For the time in between, I did not think the word "freak" was an
    insult, much less actionable by DAM. Debianites use a lot of
    invective, and DAM allows all of it. (Just on this list, I recently
    read the words d----bag, a--hole, and f--ing without any apparent consequences.) Upon realizing my error, I immediately wrote a letter
    to [the victim], which everyone can see below this message. I sent it
    the day I got the warning.

    Given the extraordinary leeway you enjoy when doling out warnings, I
    am truly terrified by the meager compassion you expend for your fellow
    human beings, all while holding high office. For example, you could
    have pointed out that my apology was most certainly a product of real contrition. After your warning, I could no longer evade punishment.
    The apology was a free-will offering from my heart.

    Similar apologies that DAM considers from people before a warning are
    probably not entitled to the same presumption of sincerity.

    Aside from a lack of due process, I do not believe I was afforded the procedural protections for non-native English speakers enshrined in
    the Code of Conduct's rule #2. [1] I was twenty years old when I left
    my native Germany and transferred to an American university (Harvard)
    on an academic scholarship from the German President
    ("Studienstiftung"). In early schooling, English was my third
    language.

    From my recollection, the word "Freak" is commonly used untranslated
    in German to denote someone who is overly eager, especially around
    computers. That meaning is marked as humorous and pejorative in Leo
    [2] but not in TFD. [3]

    Should DAM have considered my explanation before issuing the warning?
    Or, did it not matter because the word "freak" was simply too
    egregious a transgression?

    Was my behavior truly so vile that it deserved one of the harshest
    punishments available to you? How could it, compared to the other
    awful words we read so often on Debian channels?

    I did not even repeat the word "freak" during the incident, or thereafter.

    Is there a way DAM would please consider withdrawing the warning in
    light of the new information presented herein?

    By the way, the "over-eager" meaning is supported by the record. I
    thought [the victim] and a fellow member were ganging up over an old
    Lintian research tag that was never shown to the public (except for a description on the website [4]). There had been a similar but
    unrelated interaction a day prior. To make their point as forcefully
    as possible—as many in Debian like to do—the other [redacted] later
    filed a release-critical bug (wow!) against Lintian. [5] Again, I
    resolved the matter on the same day.

    Please allow me to briefly thank everyone who sent friendly private
    messages during the past month. I received many dozens, but with my
    dream of working on Debian in the balance I was too shy to reply.

    [The victim] also never responded to my apology. I hope that one day
    [pronoun] will forgive me. We had a brief exchange on IRC a few days
    ago. Perhaps it was a start.

    Thanks to everyone for indulging one more email on this subject.
    Debian is like a dream!

    Kind regards
    Felix Lechner

    [1] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
    [2] https://dict.leo.org/german-english/freak
    [3] https://www.thefreedictionary.com/freak
    [4] [redacted for privacy]
    [5] [redacted for privacy]

    ---------- Forwarded message ---------
    From: Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
    Subject: An apology

    Hi [victim's first name],

    As I am sure you saw, DAM issued a disciplinary action today in
    connection with our exchange on IRC a week ago. Their letter did not
    prohibit me from writing. and you helped me on #[redacted] yesterday.
    (Thank you!) With this letter I hope to reach a gentle reconciliation
    so we can interact and perhaps help each other again in the future.

    First of all, please accept my apologies for calling you a freak.
    Aside from my poor choice of words, it is also not what I meant. The
    primary meaning of the word is a kind of monster or other aberrant
    creature, and that is not you. I pondered a few approaches to explain
    myself, but all of them would detract from the purpose of this
    message, which is to make peace with you.

    I almost did not write and hope this letter was not too much of a
    burden to you. Please forgive me.

    Thank you for everything you do for Debian!

    Kind regards
    Felix Lechner

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