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  • Question to all candidates: registering Debian as an organization

    From Christian Kastner@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 17 17:50:01 2022
    Jonathan has already addressed this in his platform, acknowledging Brian Gupta's 2020 campaign focus on this, so this is mostly a question for
    Hideki and Felix:

    What is your position on registering Debian as an organization?

    I'm curious as to (1) what you think of the idea in general, and (2)
    insofar you think this is a good idea, to what extent you'd consider
    pursuing it during your term(s).

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  • From Felix Lechner@21:1/5 to ckk@debian.org on Thu Mar 17 18:50:01 2022
    Hi Christian,

    On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 9:48 AM Christian Kastner <ckk@debian.org> wrote:

    What is your position on registering Debian as an organization?

    I'm curious as to (1) what you think of the idea in general, and (2)
    insofar you think this is a good idea, to what extent you'd consider
    pursuing it during your term(s).

    From what I have seen, Debian's governance is presently insufficient
    to support any kind of incorporation. At least on the trademark side,
    we cannot currently match the professional support we receive from
    Software in the Public Interest, Inc., which includes timely legal
    filings around the world.

    That being said, I believe Debian should stand on its own. I am ready
    to put Debian on a short path to incorporation.

    It is one of many reasons why I'd like to see a broadly democratic
    system of boards and commissions blossom, as quickly as possible, into
    a reliable, accountable, transparent and elected governing council
    that can handle funds and other project assets on behalf of our
    membership.

    I'll start on day one by forming a Disbursements Committee that will transparently handle all financial matters that come before me as
    project leader. The committee will operate according to California's
    open meeting laws. [1]

    The position of Incorporation Manager is open. Interested parties
    shall please apply. The day we shake loose will be memorialized as our "Independence Day."

    Thank you for your question of broad public interest!

    Kind regards,
    Felix Lechner

    [1] https://www.calcities.org/detail-pages/resource/open-public-v-a-guide-to-the-ralph-m.-brown-act

    P.S. Everyone, please join #meetfelix on OFTC. I hope to get to know you better!

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  • From Hideki Yamane@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 18 01:00:01 2022
    Hi,

    What is your position on registering Debian as an organization?

    Positive (currently).


    I'm curious as to (1) what you think of the idea in general, and (2)
    insofar you think this is a good idea, to what extent you'd consider
    pursuing it during your term(s).

    Reading Jonathan's platform, I think eliminating "difficulties in
    setting up agreements with external entities" should be done. However,
    for pushing forward, I (and perhaps others) want to know pros/cons list.

    And I would form a special team for it, and delegate (Jonathan may take
    it, since it should be done by a person who is passionate :)

    --
    Hideki Yamane <henrich@iijmio-mail.jp>

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  • From Bill Allombert@21:1/5 to Christian Kastner on Fri Mar 18 22:00:01 2022
    On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 05:30:30PM +0100, Christian Kastner wrote:
    Jonathan has already addressed this in his platform, acknowledging Brian Gupta's 2020 campaign focus on this, so this is mostly a question for
    Hideki and Felix:

    What is your position on registering Debian as an organization?

    Could someone explain what does that mean ?

    Cheers,
    --
    Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

    Imagine a large red swirl here.

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  • From Christian Kastner@21:1/5 to Felix Lechner on Mon Mar 21 10:00:01 2022
    On 2022-03-20 13:10, Felix Lechner wrote:
    I'm sorry no one has gotten back to you so far. I do not know which
    ideas Jonathan Carter and Brian Gupta (copied as a courtesy) have been pursuing.

    My own thinking on this point is also evolving, as detailed below. I
    copied Christan Kastner to make sure he sees this expanded answer.

    I was actually less concerned with regards to malicious litigation
    (although that is a valid concern), and more with the day-to-day stuff.

    Currently, the Project has no legal standing of its
    own, meaning that within any legal context, there is no Project. You
    can't donate to Debian, you donate to some other organization (SPI). The
    DPL can represent the Project only formally, as formally, it doesn't
    exist yet. The Project can't own hardware directly, or hold copyrights directly. It's all down to individuals.

    A common pattern to address this within the open source world is to
    create a non-profit legal entity, e.g. the FSF Foundation or the GNOME Foundation.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Christian Kastner@21:1/5 to Christian Kastner on Mon Mar 21 11:10:02 2022
    On 2022-03-21 09:41, Christian Kastner wrote:
    Currently, the Project has no legal standing of its
    own, meaning that within any legal context, there is no Project. You
    can't donate to Debian, you donate to some other organization (SPI). The
    DPL can represent the Project only formally, as formally, it doesn't
    ^^^
    only "informally"

    Apologies.

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  • From Holger Levsen@21:1/5 to Christian Kastner on Mon Mar 21 12:10:01 2022
    On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 09:41:49AM +0100, Christian Kastner wrote:
    A common pattern to address this within the open source world is to
    create a non-profit legal entity, e.g. the FSF Foundation or the GNOME Foundation.

    or SPI?


    --
    cheers,
    Holger

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
    ⠈⠳⣄

    Privacy is a Human Right. (Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 12.)

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  • From Bill Allombert@21:1/5 to Christian Kastner on Mon Mar 21 11:40:01 2022
    On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 09:41:49AM +0100, Christian Kastner wrote:
    Currently, the Project has no legal standing of its
    own, meaning that within any legal context, there is no Project.

    Indeed, it is a great feature of Debian that it is not bound to any
    particular juridiction, it only exists through consensus of its members.

    You can't donate to Debian, you donate to some other organization (SPI). The DPL can represent the Project only formally, as formally, it doesn't
    exist yet. The Project can't own hardware directly, or hold copyrights directly. It's all down to individuals.

    A common pattern to address this within the open source world is to
    create a non-profit legal entity, e.g. the FSF Foundation or the GNOME Foundation.

    But a legal entity would be registered to some country (the US in the
    above two cases) and would be bound to its juridiction.
    What if the DPL is from some country under US sanction list like Cuba
    used to ? What if we need the non-us archive back ?
    (same, replacing US by the country of your choice) ?

    If there was a single Debian foundation, Debian members would be split
    between those that are in the juridiction of the foundation and those
    that are not and the former would be inevitably advantaged.

    Cheers,
    --
    Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

    Imagine a large red swirl here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gard Spreemann@21:1/5 to Bill Allombert on Mon Mar 21 11:50:01 2022
    Bill Allombert <ballombe@debian.org> writes:

    On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 09:41:49AM +0100, Christian Kastner wrote:
    Currently, the Project has no legal standing of its
    own, meaning that within any legal context, there is no Project.

    Indeed, it is a great feature of Debian that it is not bound to any particular juridiction, it only exists through consensus of its members.

    You can't donate to Debian, you donate to some other organization (SPI). The >> DPL can represent the Project only formally, as formally, it doesn't
    exist yet. The Project can't own hardware directly, or hold copyrights
    directly. It's all down to individuals.

    A common pattern to address this within the open source world is to
    create a non-profit legal entity, e.g. the FSF Foundation or the GNOME
    Foundation.

    But a legal entity would be registered to some country (the US in the
    above two cases) and would be bound to its juridiction.
    What if the DPL is from some country under US sanction list like Cuba
    used to ? What if we need the non-us archive back ?
    (same, replacing US by the country of your choice) ?

    If there was a single Debian foundation, Debian members would be split between those that are in the juridiction of the foundation and those
    that are not and the former would be inevitably advantaged.

    Would moving such an entity in the face of adverse legal conditions, if
    and when they arise, be a difficult operation? (I have absolutely no
    idea myself)

    -- Gard

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  • From Christian Kastner@21:1/5 to Holger Levsen on Mon Mar 21 14:40:01 2022
    On 2022-03-21 12:05, Holger Levsen wrote:
    On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 09:41:49AM +0100, Christian Kastner wrote:
    A common pattern to address this within the open source world is to
    create a non-profit legal entity, e.g. the FSF Foundation or the GNOME
    Foundation.

    or SPI?

    SPI is Debian and 39 other projects, as far as I can see.

    I think Debian should have its own identity.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bill Allombert@21:1/5 to Gard Spreemann on Mon Mar 21 16:50:01 2022
    On Mon, Mar 21, 2022 at 11:40:36AM +0100, Gard Spreemann wrote:
    If there was a single Debian foundation, Debian members would be split between those that are in the juridiction of the foundation and those
    that are not and the former would be inevitably advantaged.

    Would moving such an entity in the face of adverse legal conditions, if
    and when they arise, be a difficult operation? (I have absolutely no
    idea myself)

    Moveing money between countries is always a major problem.
    That is why it is best for Debian to have money in different countries registered with different organization.
    At minimum you can reimburse expenses in the local money, which is
    always much cheaper.

    Cheers,
    --
    Bill. <ballombe@debian.org>

    Imagine a large red swirl here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sam Hartman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 24 21:50:01 2022
    "Richard" == Richard Laager <rlaager@debian.org> writes:

    Richard> On 3/20/22 07:10, Felix Lechner wrote:
    >> If we accidentally formed a General Partnership, as has been
    >> suggested elsewhere

    Richard> Yes, that would be really dumb for a number of reasons.

    The problem is that at least in the US, you can accidentally default to
    a general partnership.
    Effectively, if you are doing things together, and it cannot be shown
    what you have instead, and mumble mumble I'm not a lawyer, a court may
    conclude you are a general partnership.

    So, it's more what steps have you taken to avoid being considered a
    general partnership?
    Unfortunately I cannot point to a lot of these steps for Debian.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Richard Laager@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 24 21:20:02 2022
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