I have a question for you (and only you).
What do you think of the reform of the Technical Committee that
introduced a limit to the time people can serve in
and would you
consider applying a similar policy to other positions of power in
Debian?
What do you think of the reform of the Technical Committee that
introduced a limit to the time people can serve in, and would you
consider applying a similar policy to other positions of power in
Debian?
On Wed, Mar 16, 2022 at 5:28 AM Charles Plessy <plessy@debian.org>[...]
wrote:
What do you think of the reform of the Technical Committee that
introduced a limit to the time people can serve in, and would you
consider applying a similar policy to other positions of power in
Debian?
I am a big fan of term limits.
When people remain in power for too long, they also become tone-deaf.[...]
I hope to find enough volunteers to help the project leader evaluate
future delegations. An Appointments Committee—with at least five but
no more than twelve members—would collect broad and public input. If
enough folks are willing to serve, our number of delegates would
swell
and still leave us with extra candidates.
A future referendum could then introduce term limits for delegates,
but first we need a deeper pool of replacements ready to serve.
You only mention delegates which have a formally easy way to get
replaced: the project leader can just do so.
Do you think that an Appointments Committee should also handle package maintainership and should we have term limits for how long people can maintain packages, in particular core packages like gcc, libc, dpkg,
apt, ...?
thank you for running !
I have a question for you (and only you).
What do you think of the reform of the Technical Committee thatFor the Technical Committee, this seems to have worked well so far.
introduced a limit to the time people can serve in, and would you
consider applying a similar policy to other positions of power in
Debian?
What do you think of the reform of the Technical Committee that
introduced a limit to the time people can serve in, and would you
consider applying a similar policy to other positions of power in
Debian?
In November 2021, it was discussed in debian-private that a team from
Debian had been working with a lawyer for a while. (Not sharing
details: issues remain ongoing.) How would you transition into taking
on this particular responsibility and similar longer running issues
should they arise in the future?
In November 2021, it was discussed in debian-private that a team fromOne of the reasons that a small team was put together was so that I
Debian had been working with a lawyer for a while. (Not sharing
details: issues remain ongoing.) How would you transition into taking
on this particular responsibility and similar longer running issues
should they arise in the future.
Hi Molly,
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 8:15 AM Molly dB <deblanc@riseup.net> wrote:
In November 2021, it was discussed in debian-private that a team
from
Debian had been working with a lawyer for a while. (Not sharing
details: issues remain ongoing.) How would you transition into
taking
on this particular responsibility and similar longer running issues
should they arise in the future?
I do not think anyone can answer topics from -private on this public
mailing list without breaching project rules, but I'll try to
alleviate your concern in a general way.
After graduating from Harvard, I left engineering and entered a
career
in commercial real estate, where I remain licensed. For twenty years,
I have helped clients achieve their objectives. While I have no legal training, an average transaction requires me to read between 100 and
6,000 pages of newly drafted and existing documents. (My total
transaction volume is about $2.5 billion to date.) I am good with
foreseeing conflict and proposing solutions to parties who have
opposing interests. In short, I negotiate for a living.
Compromise is my life.
As for the situation from November 2021, I have a plan that I believe
will work. If elected, I will not hesitate to implement it. For
future
challenges, I'd have to see what they are.
Thank you for your question!
Kind regards,
Felix Lechner
If you feel like it's appropriate, I'd appreciate hearing more details
on debian-private.
In November 2021, it was discussed in debian-private that a team from
Debian had been working with a lawyer for a while. (Not sharing
details: issues remain ongoing.) How would you transition into taking
on this particular responsibility and similar longer running issues
should they arise in the future?
Hi Molly,
On Thu, Mar 17, 2022 at 10:49 AM Molly dB <deblanc@riseup.net> wrote:
If you feel like it's appropriate, I'd appreciate hearing more
details
on debian-private.
Since Jonathan wrote that advances are imminent, I unfortunately do
not think it's appropriate for us to discuss it any further, in any
forum.
Together with everyone else, however, you would be the first to learn
more about my approach if I get elected and there is anything left to
do. Thank you!
Kind regards,
Felix Lechner
Hi,
On Thu, 17 Mar 2022 10:57:59 -0400
Molly dB <deblanc@riseup.net> wrote:
In November 2021, it was discussed in debian-private that a team
from
Debian had been working with a lawyer for a while. (Not sharing
details: issues remain ongoing.) How would you transition into
taking
on this particular responsibility and similar longer running issues
should they arise in the future?
I want to clarify your question a bit: You mean the term limit
causes
the problem to deal with such long term issue?
And what is the current problem? If it would be lack of knowledge/info/skill
to new team, adding trainee to your team may help (as I said in my
platform
as "式年遷宮").
I'd like to hear about where you draw the line between individual
issues and community wide issues. To use an example of copyright
claims: Would it be Debian's responsibility if someone raised a
copyright claim against an individual for their participation in
Debian? Alternatively: If a Debian contributor (maintainer, developer,
etc) was being harassed due to their involvement with the project, what responsibilities do you think the project would have to them? Do you
think there's a significant difference if the copyright claim (or
harassment) is coming from inside the Debian community or outside?
The harassment case is easily distinguished in that (1) the victim
seeks to initiate legal action instead of needing help with a defense,
and (2) the project's survival is not at risk—unless the victim sues
Debian as well.
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 5:42 AM Molly dB <deblanc@riseup.net> wrote:
I'd like to hear about where you draw the line between individual
issues and community wide issues. To use an example of copyright
claims: Would it be Debian's responsibility if someone raised a
copyright claim against an individual for their participation in
Debian? Alternatively: If a Debian contributor (maintainer, developer,
etc) was being harassed due to their involvement with the project, what responsibilities do you think the project would have to them? Do you
think there's a significant difference if the copyright claim (or harassment) is coming from inside the Debian community or outside?
In my case, your questions are somewhat misdirected. I intend to
exercise very few of the broad presidential powers available to the
project leader under the constitution. I hope instead to devolve the concentration of power from my office into an open and transparent
system of boards and commissions that enjoy broad community support.
Hmmm.. Do you not feel that project should stand with and support contributors facing harassment because of their work in Debian?
Hi Steve,
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:19 AM Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> wrote:
Hmmm.. Do you not feel that project should stand with and support
contributors facing harassment because of their work in Debian?
Are you asking for empathy or for financial assistance?
Which would you be prepared to provide as DPL?
As DPL, you may confront issues which are not wise to handle
transparently. This could be due to negative social consequnces, legal advice, etc. You answer makes me concerned that you intend to either:
- refuse to work on such issues
- unwisely turn them over to the broader community
Maybe you just meant to address the two examples above, and not make a general statement about your thoughts on being DPL?
Hi Steve,
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:48 AM Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> wrote:
Which would you be prepared to provide as DPL?
Whichever the members perceive as proper.
Which do *you* perceive as proper?
Come on, please stop evading the question.
If a Debian contributor
was being harassed due to their involvement with the project, what responsibilities do you think the project would have to them?
Hi Molly,
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 5:42 AM Molly dB <deblanc@riseup.net> wrote:
If a Debian contributor
was being harassed due to their involvement with the project, what responsibilities do you think the project would have to them?
Did the project provide assistance to you, and do you worry that the assistance might not continue if I am elected? Thank you!
My response was directed at the questions Molly had posed, namely
whether (1) contributors should be defended against third-party
copyright claims or (2) whether contributors should be offered
financial assistance when pursuing harassment claims in court.
If a Debian contributor
was being harassed due to their involvement with the project, what responsibilities do you think the project would have to them?
Did the project provide assistance to you, and do you worry that the assistance might not continue if I am elected? Thank you!
I have to say I feel really troubled by reading this. It's hard to believe that
a candidate for DPL addresses a legitimate and quite sensitive question with such a rhetorical passive-aggressive borderline-bullying response.
Well, at least it makes the voting easier for me.
Which would you be prepared to provide as DPL?
Whichever the members perceive as proper.
I have to say I feel really troubled by reading this. It's hard to believe that
a candidate for DPL addresses a legitimate and quite sensitive question with such a rhetorical passive-aggressive borderline-bullying response.
Well, at least it makes the voting easier for me.
This is a complex topic, but in broad strokes, the concept of having
more people involved seems reasonable to me. But I fear that the idea
and the reality may be different. How do you plan to find all the people
to sit on these committees? Have you found some already?
that enjoy broad community support.
That is, of course, a great goal. Do you have any specifics to offer
about how to achieve that?
How would you handle contentious topics?
Hi Gunnar,
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:47 PM Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> wrote:
This year I think I will break my usual
practice, and vote a certain DPL candidate below NotA :-\
With that statement, you potentially committed two
infractions—depending on where you live.
First, revealing a vote is widely looked down upon. Why would you do
it other than to sway people who have not made up their minds? It's
why some folks desire to have secret votes. Your conduct might also be illegal in some places. [1]
Second, you expressed a preference among candidates while holding
public office. [2] That is a big gray area, but restrictions exist in
the US [3] and, to some extent, in Germany. [4] On a Debian list, you
are an office holder with expanded authorities. Would it not be better
to act moderately compared to membership, on average?
How would you gauge that, Felix? It's impractical to have a vote every
time a decision is to be made, which is why voters want to know how a potential DPL would make choices so that they can make an informed
choice on who to vote for. Even if you end up setting up that army of committees (I can't imagine all the bureaucracy that will come with),
you would still have to make frequent decisions unlikely covered by
those committees. So, again, how would you gauge what project members perceive as proper?
Felix Lechner dijo [Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 06:49:50AM -0700]:
Hi Gunnar,
On Fri, Mar 18, 2022 at 10:47 PM Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> wrote:
This year I think I will break my usual
practice, and vote a certain DPL candidate below NotA :-\
With that statement, you potentially committed two
infractions—depending on where you live.
First, revealing a vote is widely looked down upon. Why would you do
it other than to sway people who have not made up their minds? It's
why some folks desire to have secret votes. Your conduct might also be
illegal in some places. [1]
Debian is not a country. Our elections are not bound by national or state-level electoral laws.
Second, you expressed a preference among candidates while holding
public office. [2] That is a big gray area, but restrictions exist in
the US [3] and, to some extent, in Germany. [4] On a Debian list, you
are an office holder with expanded authorities. Would it not be better
to act moderately compared to membership, on average?
I am just a Debian Developer, just as you are. I happen to have
received some delegations... but that's an internal issue of an
organization -- a not-legally-incorporated organization even.
If you plan on becoming a DPL, I suggest you to look into
understanding the difference between the role of the Debian Project
Leader and that of a President, Prime Minister, Supreme Dictator, or something like that.
I'm sorry, but could you explain "what do you want to improve with
a term limit"?
The disbursements that I've heard about seem to be relatively "small potatoes" things. Is there some huge wasteful spending occurring that
I've missed?
For example, I requested $217 for a one-time SSD & RAM upgrade to help
operate lintian.d.o in November of 2021. My request was not granted. I
didn't even receive a response from Jonathan (other than a request for
more information, with which I complied) even though I followed up on
my request.
That's odd, I usually approve them fast (as in, within 24h) because it's
a quick and trivial mail, but I can't find your request in my
reimbursements folder at all. I'm in meetings now but will take a look
later on if it reached the dpl-archives at all.
For example, I requested $217 for a one-time SSD & RAM upgrade to help operate lintian.d.o in November of 2021. My request was not granted. I
didn't even receive a response from Jonathan (other than a request for
more information, with which I complied) even though I followed up on
my request.
My idea for a Disbursements Committee was thus born by a simple desire
for greater accountability (or, at a minimum, a response). Plus, if
elected, I could never issue that $217 check to myself.
As for your question about "huge wasteful spending," yes, I do worry
about Debian's expenditures in light of Jonathan's comment that he is
happy to "give a lawyer a lot of money." [3]
I have worked with teams of lawyers. They get expensive fast.
Either way, the right person to address your question is Jonathan,
whom I copied as a courtesy. Jonathan ran on financial transparency
platforms in both the 2020 election [4] and again in 2021. [5]
I still want to work towards having an expenditure policy,...
The idea would be that there's some clear document that makes it
really easy for someone to know whether they can apply for something
or not, and I think if it hits a few checklist items that makes it a braindead yes, then we shouldn't even require DPL approval.
The disbursements that I've heard about seem to be relatively "small potatoes" things. Is there some huge wasteful spending occurring that
I've missed?
One anti-pattern I've seen with spending money (not Debian, but
elsewhere) is that a group will spend e.g. $10x worth of time debating
$x expense. Sometimes that is appropriate, if you're confronting a new
class of spending that will be repeated and you need to develop a policy
to apply. But often, it's just a waste because people want to bikeshed.
For example, I requested $217 for a one-time SSD & RAM upgrade to help operate lintian.d.o in November of 2021. My request was not granted. I
didn't even receive a response from Jonathan (other than a request for
more information, with which I complied) even though I followed up on
my request.
We have these documents related to that:
https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL#Money https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/AskingForMoney https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/SponsoringGuidelines
These were written by Stefano Zacchiroli in 2010 when he was DPL, he
added the hardware guidelines in 2012 and since then only very minor
edits have been made by non-DPL folks.
Are there any expenditure requests you have approved that would not fit
into the categories listed on the existing expenditure guidelines?
What changes to the existing expenditure guidelines would you make?
The only cases of waste I know of happens when people ask for
sponsorship for DebConf and then hotel space is made for them (and
possibly other expenses) and then they just don't show up without any heads-up. Even those are rare, but it's the only instances of really wasting any money that I can think of.
Reimbursing people after the fact would avoid that. (If they didn't show up, they wouldn't get a reimbursement.) But I suppose in some/many/all cases where Debian is paying, it is because the person can't afford the cost. So they might not be able to float it even temporarily. If so, then I guess
that might just be a risk we have to accept. Thankfully you're saying these things are rare.
One thing people have been really concerned about when asking for Debian
to buy hardware is, is what happens to the hardware after they're done
with it? So far I've just told them that they can try to pass it on to another DD who might want/need it (there's some wiki page for this that
I think is rarely used)
Given that Jonathan, after lots of research as he describes in this
thread, has stated that such request never reached him, can you clarify
how can you have even complied to a request for more information from him?
Also, if that's the case, why didn't you try to reach him in private at
the time rather than bringing it to -vote months later, during an DPL campaign period in which you are both candidates?
In my view, your request was totally eligible and could/should be
quickly approved.
[excerpt of posting to debian-private]
[redacted for privacy]
[redacted for privacy]
It furthermore seems that I did not follow the proper process when
filing my request, as Paul Wise pointed out.
On Tue, 2022-03-29 at 20:47 -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:
It furthermore seems that I did not follow the proper process whenMy reference to the Hardware/Wanted wiki page was referring to the
filing my request, as Paul Wise pointed out.
procedure for after you have bought hardware, no longer need it and
want to pass it on to someone else.
Admittedly the page also includes info about posting hardware
wishlists, but that section of the page doesn't really apply to your
case since it is more for a Debian service, so just buying hardware and getting a reimbursement is a better process, this is documented in the section on hosting, which I've just rewritten to be a bit clearer.
PS: I also just added mention of hardware purchases to the page and
uses of Debian money to the MemberBenefits page.
I expect a term limit to increase rotation on the positions of power,
with the following benefits:
- reduce the risk of burn-out of the delegates,
- motivate fresh people to have the ambition to serve in these
positions, because it becomes predictable when driving seats become
available,
- motivate the current delegates to put their own replacement as part
of their planning, making us more resilient to sudden (or chronic)
unavailabilities,
- increase the chances that those of us who keep a strong involvement
over many years diversify their experience, knitting our different
subgroups into a more harmonious society.
- increase our chances that challenging ideas accepted.
In brief, everything good (and everything bad) that "more turnover" is expected to bring in most of social structures where we evolve outside Debian.
Hi Tiago,
On Sun, Mar 27, 2022 at 11:09 AM Tiago Bortoletto Vaz <tiago@debian.org> wrote:
Given that Jonathan, after lots of research as he describes in this
thread, has stated that such request never reached him, can you clarify
how can you have even complied to a request for more information from him?
Also, if that's the case, why didn't you try to reach him in private at
the time rather than bringing it to -vote months later, during an DPL campaign period in which you are both candidates?
In my view, your request was totally eligible and could/should be
quickly approved.
Look, the discussion with Richard was about the process for
disbursements. I like the idea of committees that are on schedule and
open to the public.
Despite the collateral damage Jonathan suffered for the missing
reimbursement (which people in power have to endure) I did not intend
to embarrass him, yet that's where we are taking this thread.
Jonathan is a busy guy. In fact, he is so busy he too would benefit if
other folks handled the disbursements. It would be a win-win for
everyone.
My messages may also have gotten stuck in Jonathan's spam filter.
It furthermore seems that I did not follow the proper process when
filing my request, as Paul Wise pointed out.
Either way, you challenged me for the true record. Below, you will
find the exchange you are interested in. I redacted both of Jonathan's responses in case he wrote them. As you can see, I wrote a lot in
private, but was ineffective.
Similar to my other responses, I am committed to transparency when possible.
For context you will need to know that my internal hindrances with
operating lintian.d.o—which we resurrected after years of spotty service—did not start (or end) with the misplaced reimbursement. In
RT#8464 from November 2020, you will find a partial record of the
dispute. (The ticket contains one of the few irate emails I have
written in Debian; it may have contributed to my DAM warning.) To this
day, there has been nothing but obstruction.
In my mind, the missing reimbursement simply made that point one more time.
Jonathan witnessed some of my issues, but he did not cause them. In
Debian, too much power is held away from the public eye. We have Setec Astronomy. Hence my open and public committees.
Thanks for supporting my reimbursement request!
Kind regards,
Felix Lechner
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
Date: Wed, Nov 3, 2021 at 7:45 AM
Subject: Re: Spending Debian money, [redacted]
To: Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>
Hi Jonathan,
On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 9:01 AM Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> wrote:
[excerpt of posting to debian-private]
For over a year, I contemplated writing this request. As part of my contributions to Debian I operate the website lintian.d.o. Untarring
and scanning the archive uses lots of resources. The service is
heavily disk-bound.
It would help to upgrade one of my machines to an NVMe SSD. The
machine also needs more memory (currently 24 GB). I would not normally
make the upgrades. Would the project please help out with the proposed purchase?
The details in the amount of approximately US$217 are below. Thanks!
Kind regards
Felix Lechner
* * *
SAMSUNG (MZ-V8V1T0B/AM) 980 SSD 1TB, $120
Dual M.2 PCIE Adapter for SATA or PCIE NVMe, $16
Patriot 16GB(2x8GB) Viper III DDR3 1600MHz CL9, $60
Subtotal $196
Sales Tax $21
Total $217
All amounts are in US dollars. The seller is Amazon.com.
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>
Date: Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: Spending Debian money, [redacted]
To: Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
[redacted for privacy]
-Jonathan
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>
Date: Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Spending Debian money, [redacted]
To: Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
Hi Felix
[redacted for privacy]
-Jonathan
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
Date: Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Spending Debian money, [redacted]
To: Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>
Hi Jonathan,
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 11:53 AM Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> wrote:
[redacted for privacy]
The website consists of three parts. There is a web server, which
[redacted] hosts presently; a database on my personal VPS; and the
machinery that generates the data.
Some time ago, [redacted] offered to host the database (part
[redacted]). I believe I met all their requirements (most notably,
packaging semver [1] for bullseye), but no one has responded to my
most recent message from October 4.
At this point, I believe I earned the right to suspect that the delay
was intended to provoke me into writing another angry letter, but none
is coming. It would therefore be fine to proceed with the database.
(The website will also work better if DAM kicks me out, as [redacted] suggested.) The database is currently hosted on a VPS with 1 GB of
RAM, which is under dimensioned. I already offer reduced services.
Having received no response from [redacted], I approached [redacted]
about the database yesterday. Due to the broken lines of communication
with project leadership, I also did not ask for your or [redacted]'s
help with [redacted], but I would certainly appreciate it.
The third piece of equipment generates the data and is currently
located in my garage. While it is a distributed system with a
scheduler and a variable number of runners, it does not yet run automatically. In addition, several other Debian services (like UDD,
PTS, and DMD) depend on intermediate products that I generate by hand.
I often change the configuration of that equipment, so a transfer to [redacted] is not yet practical. (My estimate is a year.) The funding
request is for that third piece of equipment.
Given the ordeal I [redacted] went through, your approval of my
request would send an important signal that the project values my contributions. Thank you.
Kind regards
Felix Lechner
[1] https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/postgresql-semver
---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
Date: Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 4:53 PM
Subject: Re: Spending Debian money, [redacted]
To: Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org>
Hi Jonathan,
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 11:53 AM Jonathan Carter <jcc@debian.org> wrote:
[redacted for privacy]
Did you have a chance to make a decision regarding my request? Thanks!
Kind regards
Felix Lechner
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