On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:18 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:

People without voting rights repeatedly tried to lobby or push for a
certain agenda on this list.

Welcome to Debian.
People are free to express their opinion, even if they are not owning
an @debian.org email address. And that is actually a very good thing.
The interested reader is able to filter messages and maybe maintain a
list of people to ignore if needed. It might be annoying for you, but
free speech is not always fun.


--
Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer
http://bzed.de http://www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F

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On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:09:10PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:18 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:

People without voting rights repeatedly tried to lobby or push for a certain agenda on this list.

Welcome to Debian.
People are free to express their opinion, even if they are not owning
an @debian.org email address. And that is actually a very good thing.
The interested reader is able to filter messages and maybe maintain a
list of people to ignore if needed. It might be annoying for you, but
free speech is not always fun.

People are free to express their opinion. That does not mean the Debian Project is obligated to provide a platform for those opinions on the debian-vote mailing list, which exists to facilitate discussions among
voting members of the Debian Project regarding matters that will be voted
on.

Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators
and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their bullshit in our mailboxes.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org

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On 4/4/21 7:37 PM, Steve Langasek wrote:

Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their bullshit in our mailboxes.

i don't disagree with any of the above, but in order to try to lend a
bit of balance (because i do think it's a shame), i just wanted to offer
my own point of view, as an avid user of debian/GNU linux for something
like 2 1/2 decades who is *not* a debian developer.

Obviously there's a breadth of opinion among debian developers on this particular issue, and as often seems to be the case *whenever* GRs get
proposed and discussed, tempers and emotions can run high.

But i'm quite impressed with the overall tenor of the conversation which
took place in this discussion period. Especially the way that (contrary
to what i've witnessed in so many (almost all that i've ever paid
attention to?) other internet forums) many sub-threads which became
quite inflammatory (with respect to the rhetoric used) at certain
points, so often were brought back to salient issues and *away* from
outright hostility by other participants working hard to redirect the conversations back "on track". Not always (as i'm sure most who've been following the list postings well know), but often enough for me to take
heart in both the structure (debian constitution) and the character of
almost every single developer i've witnessed engage in this incredibly
divisive debate/dialogue.

It seems a pretty great example of tolerating dissenting opinions (that
i strive to emulate), which is doubly interesting as in this case, the
specific topic is also about the same thing (tolerating dissenting
opinions (or not) and to what degree, it is appropriate to do so).

thanks,
~c

<back to lurk-mode>


--
Charlie Derr Director, Instructional Technology 413-528-7344 https://www.simons-rock.edu Bard College at Simon's Rock
Encryption key: http://hope.simons-rock.edu/~cderr/
Personal writing: https://medium.com/@cderr Pronouns: he or they

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Le dimanche 04 avril 2021 à 16:37:15-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :

On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:09:10PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:18 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:

People without voting rights repeatedly tried to lobby or push for a certain agenda on this list.

Welcome to Debian.
People are free to express their opinion, even if they are not owning
an @debian.org email address. And that is actually a very good thing.
The interested reader is able to filter messages and maybe maintain a
list of people to ignore if needed. It might be annoying for you, but
free speech is not always fun.

People are free to express their opinion. That does not mean the Debian Project is obligated to provide a platform for those opinions on the debian-vote mailing list, which exists to facilitate discussions among
voting members of the Debian Project regarding matters that will be voted
on.

Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their bullshit in our mailboxes.

Even though it's hard and can be tiresome to many of us (and maybe
drives some away), as long as possible, I'd like the majority of our
lists to stay open to all people willing to express something.

Blocking potentially relevant comments from non contributors because
some trolls are trying to wreck havoc is giving them too much importance
and therefore giving them an easy victory.

And, despite what I personally think, a non-contributor calling the RMS
vote a "witch hunt" is not necessarily a troll.

An angry person, surely. But being angry and being a troll are two
orthogonal things.

That's my two cents, and I'm no one to decide, of course.

--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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--- SoupGate-Wi

On Mon, Apr 05, 2021 at 03:03:48PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Le dimanche 04 avril 2021 à 16:37:15-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :

On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:09:10PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:18 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:

People without voting rights repeatedly tried to lobby or push for a certain agenda on this list.

Welcome to Debian.
People are free to express their opinion, even if they are not owning
an @debian.org email address. And that is actually a very good thing.
The interested reader is able to filter messages and maybe maintain a list of people to ignore if needed. It might be annoying for you, but free speech is not always fun.

People are free to express their opinion. That does not mean the Debian Project is obligated to provide a platform for those opinions on the debian-vote mailing list, which exists to facilitate discussions among voting members of the Debian Project regarding matters that will be voted on.

Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their
bullshit in our mailboxes.

Even though it's hard and can be tiresome to many of us (and maybe
drives some away), as long as possible, I'd like the majority of our
lists to stay open to all people willing to express something.

Blocking potentially relevant comments from non contributors because
some trolls are trying to wreck havoc is giving them too much importance
and therefore giving them an easy victory.

Can you point to an example of a post you consider actually (not "possibly") relevant from a non Debian voter to debian-vote in the past 2 years?

Why should we allow third parties to lobby Debian electors using our mailing list infrastructure?

And, despite what I personally think, a non-contributor calling the RMS
vote a "witch hunt" is not necessarily a troll.

I never used the word "troll", which for me has a very specific meaning grounded in its historical usage in online communities. I referred to them
as "outside agitators", which I believe they are - whether or not a
particular individual's intention is to derail the discussion, it is
certainly their intention to influence the outcome of Debian's decision
process according to their own interests, whether or not those align with
the interests of the Debian voters as a democratic body.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org

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People are free to express their opinion. That does not mean the Debian Project is obligated to provide a platform for those opinions on the debian-vote mailing list, which exists to facilitate discussions among
voting members of the Debian Project regarding matters that will be voted
on.

Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their bullshit in our mailboxes.

I only posted because a debian mailing list was used to reach me about
the issue and it contained incorrect statements that I corrected.

If no GR had been made, I wouldn't have received anything via debian
mailing lists and I would have not replied via debian mailing lists.

If you don't want people to reply, just don't email them.


Best

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Le lundi 05 avril 2021 à 13:19:49-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :

Even though it's hard and can be tiresome to many of us (and maybe
drives some away), as long as possible, I'd like the majority of our
lists to stay open to all people willing to express something.

Blocking potentially relevant comments from non contributors because
some trolls are trying to wreck havoc is giving them too much importance and therefore giving them an easy victory.

Can you point to an example of a post you consider actually (not "possibly") relevant from a non Debian voter to debian-vote in the past 2 years?

92221074-9ef0-bb74-e6d5-989b09f9ec36@gmail.com

Why should we allow third parties to lobby Debian electors using our mailing list infrastructure?

Well, some of us are using GitHub as a way to sign letters to support or denounce RMS' appointment at the board of the FSF. So I guess it'd be
curious to be shocked that others' emit opinion on what we do or say.

And as why we would let them do it there, I'd say it makes things easier
for us, except if you want them to post on debian.community, github, or wherever the frack they want?

And, despite what I personally think, a non-contributor calling the RMS vote a "witch hunt" is not necessarily a troll.

I never used the word "troll", which for me has a very specific meaning grounded in its historical usage in online communities.

I never said you did use that word.

I referred to them as "outside agitators", which I believe they are -
whether or not a particular individual's intention is to derail the discussion, it is certainly their intention to influence the outcome
of Debian's decision process according to their own interests, whether
or not those align with the interests of the Debian voters as a
democratic body.

Man, why would be so edgy about others trying to express their opinion
on what we do if we're so keen on having the project express an opinion
about what others do?

--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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--- SoupGate-Wi

On Sun, 2021-04-04 at 16:37 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:

On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 03:09:10PM +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:

On Tue, 2021-03-30 at 12:18 +0200, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:

People without voting rights repeatedly tried to lobby or push for a certain agenda on this list.

Welcome to Debian.
People are free to express their opinion, even if they are not owning
an @debian.org email address. And that is actually a very good thing.
The interested reader is able to filter messages and maybe maintain a
list of people to ignore if needed. It might be annoying for you, but
free speech is not always fun.

People are free to express their opinion. That does not mean the Debian Project is obligated to provide a platform for those opinions on the debian-vote mailing list, which exists to facilitate discussions among
voting members of the Debian Project regarding matters that will be voted
on.

There are lots of active people in Debian who do not have voting right, but
at least I for my part want to hear their opinion if they want to share it.
And it would be a shame if those opinions would not be heard.

Non-voting posters to debian-vote are almost exclusively outside agitators and there's no reason subscribing to debian-vote should mean receiving their bullshit in our mailboxes.

Do you have any statistics on that?
Personally I don't mind to ignore some trolls, but if it bothers people too much, I also wouldn't mind if somebody would implement a filter that only accepts mails from active contributors. Although I guess that even discusing what the requirements for such an active contributor are, will take more time than ignoring some trolls once a year.


--
Bernd Zeimetz Debian GNU/Linux Developer
http://bzed.de http://www.debian.org
GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F

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