Hi,

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.

Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has
received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4]

There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could
all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free
software!

What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading!

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd
[2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/
[3] https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html

* * *

PROPOSED TEXT

In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project
will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master"
has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1]

While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as
a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the
word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3]
shocks the conscience.

Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard"
to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the
use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members.

Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the
"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment.

"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)
[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster
[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", https://ftp-master.debian.org/
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard

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On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> wrote:

Hi,

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.

Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has >received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4]

There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could
all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free >software!

What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading!

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd
[2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/
[3] https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html

* * *

PROPOSED TEXT

In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project
will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master"
has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1]

While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as
a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the
word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3]
shocks the conscience.

Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also >problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard"
to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the
use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members.

Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the >"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment.

"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)
[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", >https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster
[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", >https://ftp-master.debian.org/
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard

I'd suggest if you want to change the name via GR, the text of the GR should give the new name. Otherwise, it could drag on for a very long time.

Regardless of how one might feel about changing the names, it should be done quickly if it's to be done.

Scott K

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I feel like this is something the DPL should just decide together
with the FTP dudes. No GR required, that's just bait.

--
.''`. martin f. krafft <madduck@d.o> @martinkrafft
: :' : proud Debian developer
`. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduck
`- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems

"let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to strawberry fields.
nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout.
strawberry fields forever."
-- the beatles

<!DOCTYPE html>

<html lang="" xml:lang="" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">
<head>
<meta charset="utf-8"/>
<meta content="pandoc" name="generator"/>
<meta content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, user-scalable=yes" name="viewport"/>
<title>-</title>

</head>
<body>
<p style="padding: 0 0.5em">I feel like this is something the DPL should just decide together with the FTP dudes. No GR required, that&#39;s just bait.</p>
<div class="signature" style="color: #999; font-family: monospace; white-space: pre; margin: 1em 0 0 0; font-size: 80%"><span class="leader">-- </span><dl><br/><dt>.''`. martin f. krafft &lt;<a class="email" href="mailto:madduck@d.o">madduck@d.o</a>&gt; <
span class="citation" data-cites="martinkrafft">@martinkrafft</span></dt><br/><dd>:' : proud Debian developer<br/><br/><code style="white-space: pre-wrap">.</code>'<code style="white-space: pre-wrap">http://people.debian.org/~madduck</code>- Debian -
when you have better things to do than fixing systems<br/></dd><br/></dl><br/><p style="padding: 0 0.5em">"let me take you down, 'cause i'm going to strawberry fields.<br/><br/>nothing is real and nothing to get hungabout.<br/><br/>strawberry fields
forever."<br/><br/>-- the beatles</p></div>
</body>
</html>

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Am Wed, Nov 03, 2021 at 02:27:08PM -0700 schrieb Felix Lechner:

What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading!

[...]

PROPOSED TEXT

In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project
will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master"
has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1]

While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as
a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the
word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3]
shocks the conscience.

Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard"
to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the
use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members.

Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the "master/slave" analogy for technical equipment.

Hello,

renaming the ftpmaster role because of associations to slavery
sounds completely strange to me as in my view there are no
grounds for such an association. The term ftpmaster is in line
with terms like postmaster, newsmaster or webmaster in which
master has the meaning of the german-language "Meister", with
e.g. postmaster being the english version of the german/austrian
historic "Postmeister". This "Meister" has absolutlely nothing
to with slavery, a "Meister" is somebody who has a high level of
knowledge and abilitites in his art or profession, as in the
english "master of arts", and who due to this high level of
knowledge and abilities can be in a deciding/leading position
within his realm of work.

The english wikipedia defines the term postmaster as follows: "A
postmaster (male) or postmistress (female) is the head of an
individual post office responsible for all postal activities in a
specific post office". The german wikipedia defines
"Postmeister" as "Der Postmeister (englisch Postmaster) ist der
verantwortliche Beamte oder Offizier, der für die Zustellung und
den Transport von Briefen und anderen postalischen Nachrichten
zuständig ist", translated to english: "The Postmeister (english
Postmaster) is the responsible agent or officer tasked with the
delivery and transport of letters and other postal messages".

This maps well to the digital world for the role of a postmaster
on a mailserver, a newsmaster on a usenet newsserver and a
webmaster on a webserver, and a Debian ftpmaster is responsible
for the contents of the Debian package archive (that was
traditionally distributed by the ftp protocol, hence the
designation ftpmaster). All of this has absolutely nothing to do
with slavery, and hence renaming the ftpmaster role because of
alleged references to slavery makes absolutely no sense to me.

Not wanting to use the positive designation "wizard" - which is
like the word master used to describe somebody with a high level
of knowledge and abilities in a certain field ("he is a real
wizard with the paintbrush") - just because some group of racists
happens to use the same word as an internal rank designator also
sounds completely strange to me. If you are an engineer and some
racists should decide to use the word "engineer" as a rank
designation, would you then stop referring to yourself as an
engineer just because of that?

Regards,
Karsten
--
Hiermit widerspreche ich ausdrücklich der Nutzung sowie der
Weitergabe meiner personenbezogenen Daten für Zwecke der Werbung
sowie der Markt- oder Meinungsforschung.

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I agree. I also don't know if this is something we can just do with the DPL
or not.

The name master isn't great, as is ftp.

No one has suggested a name yet. If this was my proposal, I'd suggest the debian archive team.

Why can't we just change the name without a GR between the ftpteam and DPL?

Paul

On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 6:45 PM Scott Kitterman <debian@kitterman.com> wrote:

On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner < felix.lechner@lease-up.com> wrote:

Hi,

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.

Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has >received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4]

There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could
all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free >software!

What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading!

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd
[2] https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/
[3] https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/
[4] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html

* * *

PROPOSED TEXT

In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project
will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master"
has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1]

While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as
a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the
word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3]
shocks the conscience.

Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also >problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard"
to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the
use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members.

Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the >"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment.

"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)
[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", >https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster
[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", >https://ftp-master.debian.org/
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard

I'd suggest if you want to change the name via GR, the text of the GR
should give the new name. Otherwise, it could drag on for a very long time.

Regardless of how one might feel about changing the names, it should be
done quickly if it's to be done.

Scott K

<div dir="auto">I agree. I also don&#39;t know if this is something we can just do with the DPL or not.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">The name master isn&#39;t great, as is ftp.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">No one has
suggested a name yet. If this was my proposal, I&#39;d suggest the debian archive team.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Why can&#39;t we just change the name without a GR between the ftpteam and DPL?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir=
"auto">Paul</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 3, 2021, 6:45 PM Scott Kitterman &lt;<a href="mailto:debian@kitterman.com">debian@kitterman.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>

On November 3, 2021 9:27:08 PM UTC, Felix Lechner &lt;<a href="mailto:felix.lechner@lease-up.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">felix.lechner@lease-up.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;Hi,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has<br> &gt;received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the<br> &gt;&quot;master/slave&quot; topic over a year ago. [2][3][4]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;There should be little controversy. With a high pass rate, we could<br> &gt;all come together as a group—for our shared love of Debian and free<br> &gt;software!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading!<br> &gt;<br>
&gt;Kind regards<br>
&gt;Felix Lechner<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_George_Floyd</a><br>
&gt;[2] <a href="https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.wired.com/story/tech-confronts-use-labels-master-slave/</a><br>
&gt;[3] <a href="https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.cnet.com/news/master-and-slave-tech-terms-face-scrutiny-amid-anti-racism-efforts/</a><

&gt;[4] <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/13/technology/racist-computer-engineering-terms-ietf.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;* * *<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;PROPOSED TEXT<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project<br> &gt;will rename the &quot;FTP Masters&quot; team. For a long time, the word &quot;master&quot;<br>
&gt;has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1]<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as<br> &gt;a &quot;master&quot; and replicated equipment as &quot;slaves&quot; [2] the use of the<br>
&gt;word &quot;masters&quot; for a group of people with special privileges [3]<br>
&gt;shocks the conscience.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Within that context, the team&#39;s use of the title &quot;wizard&quot; [4] was also<br>
&gt;problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title &quot;wizard&quot;<br>
&gt;to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the<br> &gt;use of the term &quot;wizard&quot; to designate any current or former members.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the<br> &gt;&quot;master/slave&quot; analogy for technical equipment.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;    &quot;Without a struggle, there can be no progress.&quot; (Frederick Douglass)<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery</a><br>
&gt;[2] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)</a><br>
&gt;[3] &quot;The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.&quot;,<br> &gt;<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster</a><br>
&gt;[4] &quot;The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members&quot;,<br> &gt;<a href="https://ftp-master.debian.org/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://ftp-master.debian.org/</a><br>
&gt;[5] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard</a><br>
&gt;<br>

I&#39;d suggest if you want to change the name via GR, the text of the GR should give the new name.  Otherwise, it could drag on for a very long time.<br>

Regardless of how one might feel about changing the names, it should be done quickly if it&#39;s to be done.<br>

Scott K<br>

</blockquote></div>

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On 11/3/21 10:27 PM, Felix Lechner wrote:

Hi,

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.

Since the murder of George Floyd, the average fate of Black lives has received much attention. Even the tech sector picked up the
"master/slave" topic over a year ago. [2][3][4]

Gosh... it's becoming crazy...
Let's rename the FTP master team because FTP is obsolete, not because of "master" which is there in the sense "professor", or the one who knows
(like Chinese "xifu").

If we're about to engage once more in such a SJW thing for the wrong
reasons, misunderstanding the word "master" in this case. I'll vote no!

There should be little controversy.

There is: you are mistaking with the meaning of "master" in this case.
We aren't the slaves of the FTP master team!!!

What do you think about the text below, please? Thanks for reading!

It is *very* silly to do a GR for such a (wrong) thing. Please don't
waste the time of everyone. We have other procedures in Debian, like
asking the DPL to do it, if the FTP master team agrees.

Also, did you engage with the FTP master team at least, before writing
this message? That would be appropriate, IMO.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

P.S: Please do not take it the wrong way: saying something is silly is
not the same as calling someone silly... I do respect Felix (and
everyone else), and in this instance as well.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi Felix,

* Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> [2021-11-03 14:27]:

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.

[...]

PROPOSED TEXT

In recognizance of the awful history of slavery, the Debian project
will rename the "FTP Masters" team. For a long time, the word "master"
has been associated with the grave injustices of slavery. [1]

While there is a tradition in computing to label primary equipment as
a "master" and replicated equipment as "slaves" [2] the use of the
word "masters" for a group of people with special privileges [3]
shocks the conscience.

Within that context, the team's use of the title "wizard" [4] was also >problematic. The Ku Klux Klan and its spinoffs used the title "wizard"
to style high officials. [5] The team will likewise discontinue the
use of the term "wizard" to designate any current or former members.

Nothing in this resolution shall impair the continued use of the >"master/slave" analogy for technical equipment.

"Without a struggle, there can be no progress." (Frederick Douglass)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master/slave_(technology)
[3] "The FTP masters can do everything in the archive.", >https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/FTPMaster
[4] "The FTP Wizard role consists of former team members", >https://ftp-master.debian.org/
[5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Wizard

I'm not going to repeat Karsten's arguments; I agree with him that
our usage of master is not associated with slavery in such a way
that we absolutely need to abandon the word. Neither is wizard
(unless anyone insists on "Grand Wizard" as title).

While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we
should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves.

I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL can
agree, including the current one. I would also happily ratify their
choice via GR if they felt that the whole project should have a say.
What I do not want is force a GR decision upon them.


Cheers
Timo

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ ╭────────────────────────────────────────────────────╮
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ │ Timo Röhling │
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ │ 9B03 EBB9 8300 DF97 C2B1 23BF CC8C 6BDD 1403 F4CA │
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ ╰────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯

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"Timo" == Timo Röhling <roehling@debian.org> writes:

Timo> I am fine with any name on which the FTP masters and the DPL
Timo> can agree, including the current one. I would also happily
Timo> ratify their choice via GR if they felt that the whole project
Timo> should have a say. What I do not want is force a GR decision
Timo> upon them.
+1

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While I also agree with Paul that the current name is somewhat dated technologically, it is not fatally flawed. Therefore, I think we
should leave the naming decision to the FTP masters themselves.

This doesn't change anything about this thread or this email, but in the spirit of trying to be really clear, I believe master is a harmful word as well,
even if it's used in a sense where the implication is not slavery -- since it still causes harm to our friends working alongside us to create an
operating system. I've done the best I can to fix it where I see it but
still live with legacy usage.

My position is that there is no part of the name "ftp master" that I find particularly relevant anymore.

Part two of my position is that Debian is a very risk averse and slow to
change project. It takes us eons to do anything major, and if that
decision is perceived as controversial in any way, it takes an order
of magnitude longer. With a lot of hostility and the same conversations
but with a different flavor of the year. At this point I could script half the traffic on -vote and -project.

A GR will serve to turn something that can be done by under 10 people
into a series of tragic and passive aggressive blog posts around the
etymology of words. To be honest, I have better ways to spend my
time.

It strikes me as possible and likely the ftpteam agrees that the name
is outmoded (both for "ftp" and "master") and can make the change
internally (if I had my way, "debian archive team"), or internally with
the DPL if that's something that needs to be done. Doing a GR is
a signal of failure to let those doing the work make their own
decision on their responsibilities, in my mind.

The hardest part may very well be changing all the CNAME/A
records[1][2]

Fondly,
paultag

[1]: this is actually going to be hard :)
[2]: I may live to regret these words

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On 16306 March 1977, Felix Lechner wrote:

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General Resolution.

Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about.

I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,
to do this via a GR. Without even ever asking the team what they think
about a change.


Not that I am against a change, and I can even see some of the reasoning
behind it. I'm sure the team can find something entirely without an
entirely needless GR.


Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start
with hostnames for example).

--
bye, Joerg

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Hi,

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:

I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,
to do this via a GR.

The mildest vote in the U.S. House of Representatives is the naming of
a U.S. Post Office. I think it would be such a vote. How can someone
not be for it?

By the way, we are behind the times. Many universities have avoided
the term since 2016. [2] It was also in the newspapers a year ago.

the GR should give the new name

I did not wish to bind future generations.

just because some group of racists happens to use the same word

For better or for worse, we are part of a larger world. For the German
speakers among us, it may make sense that "Führer" isn't a great word,
either. [1] We live with history.

did you engage with the FTP master team

That would not achieve the intended purpose. Voting in unison can be therapeutic for a group. Our discussions are too aggressive or
accusatory, and too long. For once, there would be peace. We can use a
little more consensus. Isn't this conversation milder and shorter than
most?

Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project.

We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but
gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature that makes us who we
are. In short, we need more compassion for each other and more
inspiration to do good. Some call it culture.

The strong maintainer model is one big reason. DAM is desperately
trying to rule. The code of conduct isn't working. We effectively live
under martial law, a very low and unjust way to organize our group's
affairs. What does it mean to be sophisticated? Debian can do better.

I'd suggest the debian archive team

Personally, I like Archive Operations. I also had the FTP vs HTTP
thingy on my mind, but all the technical questions miss the human
point: It was to seek common ground among people.

It is *very* silly

I was not offended. Please call me anything—just do not lie. (You didn't.)

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] Given the extraordinary atrocities, that comparison is only
illustrative. It was also not my idea, but I can't find the reference.
[2] https://www.thecollegefix.com/rice-u-away-master-term-cites-negative-historical-connotation/

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Hi Joerg

On 2021/11/04 23:14, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General
Resolution.

Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about.

I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,

That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a DD last year, it takes
some time to learn not to go for the biggest and bluntest hammer first.

<snip>

Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that, quite pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer (start
with hostnames for example).

*nod*, although I don't see harm in starting with just a team name
change. It doesn't have to mandate immediate changes everywhere else.
The next step would probably be to file bugs for everywhere the name
occurs with some tag and then track that, but I wouldn't want to force a
surge of work because of this change. Starting with the delegation and
then taking it one step at a time from there seems ok.

-Jonathan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Am Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700 schrieb Felix Lechner:

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:

I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it is,
to do this via a GR.

The mildest vote in the U.S. House of Representatives is the naming of
a U.S. Post Office. I think it would be such a vote. How can someone
not be for it?

Because people think that the stated reason for the change
doesn't make any sense to them?

just because some group of racists happens to use the same word

For better or for worse, we are part of a larger world. For the German speakers among us, it may make sense that "Führer" isn't a great word, either. [1] We live with history.

As with "master" in English that completely depends on the
context. I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts
that have nothing to do with the Nazis, e.g. in the meaning of
"guide" (like in Fremdenführer, Stadtführer, Museumsführer,
Wanderführer, etc.), in the meaning of "manager" (like in
Zugführer at the train services or in Zugführer at the fire
departments and the emergency support services), in the meaning
of "controller/handler" (like in Hundeführer at the mountain
rescue services or in Frachtführer at carrier/transport services)
and in the meaning of "driver" (like in Kraftfahrzeugführer, Triebfahrzeugführer, Schiffsführer and of course in Führerschein
(driver's license)), and nobody I know of has any problem with
these kinds of uses simply because in these contexts there is
absolutely no connection to the Nazi's use of the word "Führer".

Regards,
Karsten
--
Hiermit widerspreche ich ausdrücklich der Nutzung sowie der Weitergabe
meiner personenbezogenen Daten für Zwecke der Werbung sowie der Markt-
oder Meinungsforschung.

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On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:

[...] We effectively live
under martial law

you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed.


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

We live in a world where teenagers get more and more desperate trying to convince adults to behave like grown ups.

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Hi,

you mean, people in Debian die? I'm speechless and pretty unimpressed.

Martial law is the ad-hoc implementation of simple laws to control a population. [1] In modern democracies, it only happens to stop
widespread unlawful behavior during public unrest. While effective, it
is not healthy for a society because all decisions are made on the
spot and without due process. [2] It is an emergency measure and has
nothing to do with people dying. Most often it's a nightly curfew or
the taking of private property.

I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts

That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word
"Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and
people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical
meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Finding synonyms is a common web
search. There are 683 of them. [5]

the biggest and bluntest hammer

Naming a post office is not a hammer. It may be perceived that way
because the threat of a GR has so often been used as a last resort
when fighting, but peace is possible. We just need inclusive behavior,
a tolerance for difference, and the seeking of common ground. [6] It
could be the birth of a virtual republic. Have hope!

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law
[2] https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt5_4_1/
[3] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BChrer#Sprachgebrauch
[4] https://www.focus.de/politik/deutschland/die-enthemmte-mitte-schockierende-studie-ueber-rechtes-denken-jeder-zehnte-deutsche-wuenscht-sich-einen-fuehrer-wie-hitler_id_5638932.html
[5] https://www.buchstaben.com/synonym/f%C3%BChrer
[6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace

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Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:

I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts

That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word
"Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and
people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical
meaning—except in fringe groups. [4]

Yes, but no one is advocating that we use the word "master" in its
historical meaning relating to slavery, so that's hardly relevant. As
has been repeated many times, there are non-problematic meanings of
"master". So while German speakers, as you point out, may want to avoid speaking of a political leader as a "Führer", they don't seem to want to
avoid referring to their driver's license as a "Führerschein". By the
same token, it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and
"master of the package archive" completely differently.

-- Gard


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On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 06:35:43AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:

I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts

That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word
"Führer" in German society is fictional. [3] I am from Berlin, and
people hesitate to use the word anywhere near its historical
meaning—except in fringe groups. [4] Finding synonyms is a common web search. There are 683 of them. [5]

I am also a native speaker of German. All examples that Karsten gave
(you didn't quote them) are correct and current German and
uncontroversially accepted in Germany.

Grüße
Marc

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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Hi!

On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:

I'm a native German speaker and "Führer" is widely and
completely uncontroversially used in German in lots of contexts

That is, as you noted, somewhat true for the word "master" as well,
but your portrayal of a wide and unequivocal acceptance of the word
"Führer" in German society is fictional.

[…] So while German speakers, as you point out, may want to avoid
speaking of a political leader as a "Führer", they don't seem to want to avoid referring to their driver's license as a "Führerschein". By the
same token, it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and "master of the package archive" completely differently.

This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language
issues" thread. I think this is not helping. The issue raised by Felix
Lechner seems to be worthwhile debating, the proposed strategy (doing it
via a GR) is certainly questionable.


Also, @Gard:

Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest
of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise
[1], the word "Führerschein" (literally: guide certificate - where guide
is a vehicle guide) was replaced by "Fahrerlaubnis" (driving permission)
[2] and is still widely used with this connotation in this part of the
country. (In reunified Germany, the term is also used, but means
something slightly different.)

Have a great weekend
Ulrike

[1] https://www.wsi.de/data/wsi_vm_verfuegbare_einkommen_kreise_print-01.png [2] https://www.ddr-museum.de/de/objects/1020956

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

This is turning, yet again, into a "Germans debate German language
issues" thread.

Please don't worry. Having started it, I will lead us out again.

it's reasonable for Debian to judge "master of a slave" and
"master of the package archive" completely differently.

Yes, it's reasonable, but it's not nice. This isn't even about
changing the colloquial use. I am asking for your vote to change an
official term. It is already outdated. The hope is to make Debian a
more welcoming place. It would be a gradual process, because change is
hard.

How much of a concession could it be? Does it feel like social
engineering, or like the drumbeat of the political left? It is
neither, although it would help if you felt that way. No one likes to
be commanded around—you don't, and neither did the slaves. See, you
have so much in common!

Either way, I am just asking for your vote. You can say no, and I
won't judge you for it. But I will say, please.

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

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On Thu, Nov 04, 2021 at 03:28:07PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:14 PM Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:

Debian is a very risk averse and slow to change project.

We need more trust. The group has to rise—as a moral force, but >gently—over the arbitrary and capricious nature that makes us who we
are. In short, we need more compassion for each other and more
inspiration to do good. Some call it culture.

The strong maintainer model is one big reason. DAM is desperately
trying to rule. The code of conduct isn't working. We effectively live
under martial law, a very low and unjust way to organize our group's
affairs. What does it mean to be sophisticated? Debian can do better.

"Martial law"? Are you *really* trying to claim we're in a setup with
"direct military control of normal civil functions" [1]. Stop trying
to push buttons, and go and do something useful instead.

[1] To quote the same wikipedia article you linked yourself.

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com "I can't ever sleep on planes ... call it irrational if you like, but I'm
afraid I'll miss my stop" -- Vivek Das Mohapatra

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On 16308 March 1977, Jonathan Carter wrote:

I would like to rename the FTP Masters team—ideally via a General
Resolution.

Ideally? Its the worst possible way to go about.
I'm at a loss to actually find polite words to describe how off it
is,

That might be slightly harsh, Felix only became a DD last year, it
takes
some time to learn not to go for the biggest and bluntest hammer
first.

Only slightly, and nah, I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move
to go directly to this.

Also, changing the name is Step 1 only and if we leave it at that,
quite
pointless. Getting it all changed will take quite a while longer
(start
with hostnames for example).

*nod*, although I don't see harm in starting with just a team name
change. It doesn't have to mandate immediate changes everywhere else.
The next step would probably be to file bugs for everywhere the name
occurs with some tag and then track that, but I wouldn't want to force
a
surge of work because of this change. Starting with the delegation and
then taking it one step at a time from there seems ok.

Yeah. The current name is wrong for ages already, ftp is hardly in use
for a long time, so thats a good reason to adjust it. If it happens to
lose the "master" part in that, oh fine. And yeah, it will take *ages*
and lots of small steps before it will be all through.

--
bye, Joerg

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Hi,

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:

I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move
to go directly to this.

It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)
Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our
trusted partners in this noble endeavor!

Debian is good. The group is good.

Please have a good weekend, everyone!

Felix

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Just dropping my 2cents:

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, 12:09 am Felix Lechner, <felix.lechner@lease-up.com>
wrote:

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:

I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move
to go directly to this.

It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)

If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word "master" because it reminds somebody of slavery, my answer would be NO.
(Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist and
similar SJW crap)
In fact, depending how the ballots are worded, I might just even vote
against this specific proposal.


Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our

trusted partners in this noble endeavor!

But I do support this stance.
I'd love to see something like GRs used way way more often, if only the
process was much lighter in bureaucracy 🤐

<div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Just dropping my 2cents:</div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr"><br></div><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, 6 Nov 2021, 12:09 am Felix Lechner, &lt;<a href="mailto:
felix.lechner@lease-up.com">felix.lechner@lease-up.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert &lt;<a href="mailto:joerg@debian.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">joerg@debian.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move<br>
&gt; to go directly to this.<br>

It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I<br>
hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word &quot;master&quot; because it reminds somebody of
slavery, my answer would be NO.</div><div dir="auto">(Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist and similar SJW crap)</div><div dir="auto">In fact, depending how the ballots are worded, I might just even vote against this specific
proposal.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Let&#39;s lose the fear of referendums. Our fellow contributors are our<br> trusted partners in this noble endeavor!<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">But I do support this stance.</div><div dir="auto">I&#39;d love to see something like GRs used way way more often, if only the process was much
lighter in bureaucracy 🤐</div></div>

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Hi,

On 05.11.21 16:11, Ulrike Uhlig wrote:

On 05.11.21 15:23, Gard Spreemann wrote:> Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:

Please note that in the former GDR, which seems to be a part of the rest
of Germany nowadays, even though income maps seem to indicate otherwise
[1], the word "Führerschein" (literally: guide certificate - where guide
is a vehicle guide) was replaced by "Fahrerlaubnis" (driving permission)
[2] and is still widely used with this connotation in this part of the country. (In reunified Germany, the term is also used, but means
something slightly different.)

I need to correct what I said, because it's probably factually wrong.
Likely, the term was not "replaced" as I said above but instead "tried
to be avoided" - and it still is by some. The point I was trying to make
was that the German usage of "Führerschein" was and is definitely not as uncontroversial as it has been presented in this thread.

Sorry for adding another off-topic message to an already off-topic thread!

ulrike

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On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 03:52:01PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:

It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)

obviously everybody who's not instantly supporting renaming ftpmaster :)

I think you got a *lot* to learn about how to unite people, this thread is
a pretty "good" example how not to do this and rather alienate them.


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

The upcoming clima apocalypse is the big elephant in every room now.

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Hi,

Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org> wrote on 06/11/2021 at 00:31:04+0100:

If I was given the question: would you like to get rid of the word
"master" because it reminds somebody of slavery, my answer would be
NO. (Incidentally, I have similar thoughts about blacklist/whitelist
and similar SJW crap) In fact, depending how the ballots are worded, I
might just even vote against this specific proposal.

I feel about the same.

That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive Team"
sounds quite nice.

But I do support this stance.
I'd love to see something like GRs used way way more often, if only
the process was much lighter in bureaucracy

I agree, more GR is not necessarily bad. It would be in the current
situation because it's a lot of work for the process to happen, but in
general collecting a project-members-wide opinion if and when possible
sounds quite nice.

Cheers,
--
PEB

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Holger Levsen - 06.11.21, 10:44:24 CET:

On Fri, Nov 05, 2021 at 03:52:01PM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:

It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense that I
hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes slavery, anway?)

obviously everybody who's not instantly supporting renaming ftpmaster
:)

Just that a word like "master" can have one meaning, does not mean it
cannot have another. Like for example for someone who has mastered a
certain skill.

If we exclude every word from being spoken that could be understood in a
way that supports slavery or racism or you name it… or even just
questions any main stream narrative… I wonder how many words in our languages would still be left.

I am just a contributor, not a Debian Developer. So I would have no vote anyway… however… while I do agree that it is important to think about language and how we shape our world by using certain language patterns I
also think one can overdo this. I regularly thought that when git
reminded me about master git branch name on a new installation. I use
"main" as branch name in new repositories cause I do not really care
about the name, however… I thought again and again… whether it really
has been necessary to annoy every git user like this on every new git installation.

That written there can be other good reasons to rename FTP Masters –
whether the new name still contains "Masters" in it or not. I wonder:
Were there even any suggestions brought up in this thread for a new
name? That would be a good approach, I think. If you like to change
something, provide an alternative to what is.

I thought about "Package Sorcerers" however… I would not be surprised if someone brings up that equally to wizards sorcerers can have a bad connotation. And I do not really quite like the name either. Like
"Package Magicians" it does not pronounce all that well. And in the end
it would be difficult why FTP Masters would be Package Magicians while the people who develop the packages would not be. Yet "Magicians of the
Package Queue"… really… not.

A short name… that indeed fits well… I see that as a bit of a challenge and I did not see anyone providing a suggestion to that in this thread
at least so far.

--
Martin

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Pierre-Elliott B�cue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:

That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
Team" sounds quite nice.

Agreed. I like this name.

Best,
--
Martin

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On Sat, Nov 06, 2021 at 11:32:35AM +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Pierre-Elliott B�cue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:

That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
Team" sounds quite nice.

Agreed. I like this name.

+1, and +10000 about ***not*** trying to do this via a GR. I can't
think of a more divisive way to cause dissention, waste a lot of time,
and further demoralize many DD's. It's also like using a sledgehammer
to try to kill a fly.

- Ted

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On 11/4/21 8:14 PM, Paul R. Tagliamonte wrote:

The hardest part may very well be changing all the CNAME/A
records[1][2]

Thanks for volunteering! :)

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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"Felix" == Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:

Felix> Hi,
Felix> On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 2:45 PM Joerg Jaspert <joerg@debian.org> wrote:
>>
>> I am pretty sure that was a 100% calculated move to go directly
>> to this.

Felix> It was impromptu. The mail was intentional only in the sense
Felix> that I hoped to find a topic to unite people. (Who likes
Felix> slavery, anway?) Let's lose the fear of referendums. Our
Felix> fellow contributors are our trusted partners in this noble
Felix> endeavor!

We're in the middle of approaching what are I hopo two relatively uncontroversial referendums:

* A proposal to update our voting process (which looks like it will have
a couple of options on the ballot)

* A proposal to have secret ballot votes as an option/requirement.

No action was required to get some practice with referendums that
hopefully will not be painful.

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This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --fUQ3gA8VkbSYNMmE1mX6e6bl8dYDwcaKP
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Hi,

On 11/8/21 5:30 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:

* A proposal to update our voting process (which looks like it will have
a couple of options on the ballot)

And that is a good thing. The core strength of our voting system is that
there are no spoiler options, and if I look back, the most controversial
votes were those where there were only two options and where people had
to pick a side.

Simon


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Simon Richter <sjr@debian.org> writes:

... if I look back, the most controversial
votes were those where there were only two options and where people had
to pick a side.

I suspect this has more to do with the underlying nature of the issue
being voted on than how the ballot was crafted. A divisive issue seems
likely to create controversy whether the ballot involved is simple or complicated. But, point taken.

Bdale

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On Sat 2021-11-06 11:32:35 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:

That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
Team" sounds quite nice.

Agreed. I like this name.

Yes, please. "Debian Archive Team" is fine. This is fair amount of
work, but it will help make debian not seem quite as archaic as I'm sure
it seems to new prospective users or developers. Thus it is valuable
work. But a GR does not seem necessary.

The way to do this is to consult with the people already on the team and
the DPL. Select a new name, figure out what work needs to be done
to make the change. Make a plan, have someone to drive it, and
persist. It will probably take at least a full debian release cycle.
Changing names is hard, even if you don't have reactionary pushback.

Many things might be touched by this: e-mail addresses; mailing lists;
text in debian policy or the developer's reference; DNS labels; OpenPGP certificates; SSH host information; wiki entries; software like dupload;
etc (fortunately, the archaic team name doesn't appear in the
Constitution or the DFSG).

Consider upgrade paths and how to deprecate the old name safely: when
updating e-mail addresses, can you create an alias from the old label to
the new address? How about DNS records? How should we handle mailing
list archives? When/how should you send a deprecation warning when
people use the old label?

Have a timeline that acknowledges the work involved, and plans when to
take each step. For example, changing DNS records, e-mail addresses,
and cryptographic associations will probably be slower/more cumbersome
than changing human-readable labels. Be prepared to revise the workplan
when someone discovers some other place that the old name is embedded.

You need to find someone or someone(s) who have the capacity and the
skills to actually carry out the right work -- or who at least can keep
track of the work and encourage/support the folks who have the
permissions to do it to get it done.

No one should object to this work if it's done with this kind of thoughtfulness, care, and attention to detail.

Helping the project through this transition would be a great
contribution to Debian, because it fixes a silly stumbling block that
existing developers have already learned how to ignore, but that does
actually hold the project back from welcoming new members who might have
never heard of FTP (or of using the term "master" to mean administrator
for a machine) before.

This work is *not* the kind of contribution that maps cleanly to a
facility at packaging free software for redistribution. This is a great example of why we need more than just package-maintainers as debian
developers. There are probably many other parts of the project that
need this kind of attention and effort, and we should absolutely *not*
scare people off who want to help fix things.

But let's not make it harder to fix than it already needs to be by
dragging a GR into the mix as well.

--dkg

PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can
acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to
improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them
do it, at least *let* them do it!

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

On Sat 2021-11-06 11:32:35 +0100, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

Pierre-Elliott Bécue - 06.11.21, 11:06:58 CET:

That being said, the name is indeed outdated, and "Debian Archive
Team" sounds quite nice.

Agreed. I like this name.

Yes, please. "Debian Archive Team" is fine. This is fair amount of
work, but it will help make debian not seem quite as archaic as I'm sure
it seems to new prospective users or developers. Thus it is valuable
work. But a GR does not seem necessary.

Thank you dkg for writing this mail. Full acknowledgement.

Cheers
jonas

The way to do this is to consult with the people already on the team and
the DPL. Select a new name, figure out what work needs to be done
to make the change. Make a plan, have someone to drive it, and
persist. It will probably take at least a full debian release cycle. Changing names is hard, even if you don't have reactionary pushback.

Many things might be touched by this: e-mail addresses; mailing lists;
text in debian policy or the developer's reference; DNS labels; OpenPGP certificates; SSH host information; wiki entries; software like dupload;
etc (fortunately, the archaic team name doesn't appear in the
Constitution or the DFSG).

Consider upgrade paths and how to deprecate the old name safely: when updating e-mail addresses, can you create an alias from the old label to
the new address? How about DNS records? How should we handle mailing
list archives? When/how should you send a deprecation warning when
people use the old label?

Have a timeline that acknowledges the work involved, and plans when to
take each step. For example, changing DNS records, e-mail addresses,
and cryptographic associations will probably be slower/more cumbersome
than changing human-readable labels. Be prepared to revise the workplan
when someone discovers some other place that the old name is embedded.

You need to find someone or someone(s) who have the capacity and the
skills to actually carry out the right work -- or who at least can keep
track of the work and encourage/support the folks who have the
permissions to do it to get it done.

No one should object to this work if it's done with this kind of thoughtfulness, care, and attention to detail.

Helping the project through this transition would be a great
contribution to Debian, because it fixes a silly stumbling block that existing developers have already learned how to ignore, but that does actually hold the project back from welcoming new members who might have never heard of FTP (or of using the term "master" to mean administrator
for a machine) before.

This work is *not* the kind of contribution that maps cleanly to a
facility at packaging free software for redistribution. This is a great example of why we need more than just package-maintainers as debian developers. There are probably many other parts of the project that
need this kind of attention and effort, and we should absolutely *not*
scare people off who want to help fix things.

But let's not make it harder to fix than it already needs to be by
dragging a GR into the mix as well.

--dkg

PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can
acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to
improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them
do it, at least *let* them do it!

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Daniel Kahn Gillmor <dkg@fifthhorseman.net> writes:

PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can
acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to
improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them
do it, at least *let* them do it!

As someone who did jump into the debate about the term "master", and
regrets doing so (due to contributing irrelevant noise), I wanna say:
Thanks for making this point, you are absolutely right!

-- Gard

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On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
to keep the project we all work on using terminology we all can
acknowledge is confused and outdated. If someone is excited to
improve the project, even if you don't have the capacity to help them
do it, at least *let* them do it!

Two things:

1/ The assertion "we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated" is
far fom the case. This and other discussions on the matter are
strong evidence that "we can all acknowledge" is a
mischaracterization.

2/ Claimed improvements must in fact improve things. Those proposing
improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements
provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the
improvements. Your statement seems to imply that those who dissent
should just be quiet and allow those who want to implement change to
implement change without any resistance. I've never ever seen such
an arrangement actually result in a good outcome.

The "FTP Masters" rename primarily concerns the team itself, but it has
the potential to affect every member of the project. Personally, I
rather value the opinions and ideas of those affected and think that
those should be considered alongside the proposals for change. That's
the way this project has determined that we should do things. If we as
a project allow some to make changes without considering the concerns of
those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful to our own
principles.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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Hi,

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:12 AM Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote:

Those proposing
improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements
provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the improvements.

I had hoped to sidestep that responsibility by putting the matter to a vote.

Long live democracy—freedom and liberty for all!

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

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On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:22:48PM +0100, Pierre-Elliott B�cue wrote:

Roberto C. S�nchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote on 11/11/2021 at 13:56:24+0100:

If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful
to our own principles.

That's true, but it doesn't look like it's what's being done here.

Felix proposed something, and it's being debated. In particular it seems
most agree that a GR is not an appropriate idea, but rather let
FTPMaster Team and the DPL convey and find a path if it's relevant.

Apart from that, we were many to raise the opinion that removing the
"master" term out of "it reminds slavery" motive was not something we
thought sane.

IOW, it seems, to me, that the project does quite efficiently what is expected on these grounds. Opinions are expressed and the discussion
goes on.

Mind, it's not even close to a flame, so it's actually quite nice!

I agree with you completely.

My words that you quoted were specifically responding to DKG's words:

If someone is excited to improve the project, even if you don't
have the capacity to help them do it, at least *let* them do it!

This seems to imply that objecting to a proposed change is inherently an obstructionist act.

I haven't expressed an opinion on Felix's initial GR suggestion, but the discussion that has arisen from it so far seems to have allowed those on various sides of the matter express their ideas and concerns. That
seems to be what we as a project value.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote on 11/11/2021 at 13:56:24+0100:

If we as a project allow some to make changes without considering the concerns of those affected by the changes, we are not being faithful
to our own principles.

That's true, but it doesn't look like it's what's being done here.

Felix proposed something, and it's being debated. In particular it seems
most agree that a GR is not an appropriate idea, but rather let
FTPMaster Team and the DPL convey and find a path if it's relevant.

Apart from that, we were many to raise the opinion that removing the
"master" term out of "it reminds slavery" motive was not something we
thought sane.

IOW, it seems, to me, that the project does quite efficiently what is
expected on these grounds. Opinions are expressed and the discussion
goes on.

Mind, it's not even close to a flame, so it's actually quite nice!

With best regards,

--
PEB

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Hi,

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
to keep the project we all work on using terminology

there might be people who would oppose the change not because they're
comitted to the term "master" but they feel that we have darn more
important things to do - for example re-gaining technical excellence and leadership. We haven't been concentrating on technology enough in the
last years.

Greetings
Marc

-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> writes:

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 5:12 AM Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> wrote:

Those proposing
improvements must also demonstrate how the claimed improvements
provide greater benefit than the cost incurred in implementing the
improvements.

I had hoped to sidestep that responsibility by putting the matter to a
vote.

Reading this really bothers me. The problem I see is that being a good
citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such responsibilities.

Because everyone here is a volunteer, it's important to not make being
part of Debian less rewarding in unnecessary ways. When you have a good
idea that needs effort by others to implement, how you choose to go about proposing they make that effort matters. If you can successfully
convince that individual or group that your idea is a good one and they
come to *want* to do the work, we all win and our community becomes
stronger.

When you side-step the responsibility of considering the workload you
may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote as
the first step, those people are likely to feel "forced" to do the work.
In my experience, that makes it *less* likely the work will actually get
done, or be done in a timely manner.

Bdale

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Hi,

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM Bdale Garbee <bdale@gag.com> wrote:

being a good
citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such responsibilities.

No sweat. How about the following?

$500,000 Value of friendly and up-to-date team names [1]
$200,000 Cost of implementation [2]
--------
$300,000 Net benefit to Debian

Please consider, however, that no individual opinion—and especially
not mine—can stand for the group's preferences. As the proposer, I am
biased. Why argue?

the workload you
may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote

Voting is a right. [3] Advocates help with the process. The project
imposes decisions by approving or rejecting resolutions. [4]

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] Recruiting 50 excess contributors over ten years, at a lifetime contribution of $10,000 each.
[2] 2,000 hours of work at $100, a rate roughly in line with https://www.debian.org/consultants/
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage
[4] Section 2.1, https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution

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On Thu 2021-11-11 07:56:24 -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

1/ The assertion "we all can acknowledge is confused and outdated" is
far fom the case. This and other discussions on the matter are
strong evidence that "we can all acknowledge" is a
mischaracterization.

I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project
believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated.

There is some subset of people who think that "master" is confused and outdated.

There is another subset of people who think that "FTP" is confused and outdated.

Some of us are in the intersection of those subsets.

I had expected the union of those sets to be congruent with the entire
project membership, thus i would have thought everyone would be able to
get behind a rename of the team in accordance with the wishes of the
team members themselves.

Live and learn, I guess. You've made it pretty clear that you're not in
the "master" subset. But I'm surprised to hear that you also are not in
the "FTP" subset.

On the off chance that you *are* in the "FTP" subset, i encourage you
re-read my earlier postscript in that light.

This is my last message on this thread.

--dkg

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On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:23:58PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project
believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated.

I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird definition of DD and DM.

Bastian

--
There's another way to survive. Mutual trust -- and help.
-- Kirk, "Day of the Dove", stardate unknown

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Hi Marc

On 2021/11/11 17:29, Marc Haber wrote:

On Wed, Nov 10, 2021 at 05:37:55PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

PS For people who are concerned that a retreat from the term "master" is
somehow the language police run dangerously amok, it's worth asking
why you feel so committed to the term "master" that you would fight
to keep the project we all work on using terminology

there might be people who would oppose the change not because they're comitted to the term "master" but they feel that we have darn more
important things to do - for example re-gaining technical excellence and leadership. We haven't been concentrating on technology enough in the
last years.

Well, I would tell these hypothetical persons that you're concerned
about that technical excellence and project maintenance go hand in hand,
and that you can't have one without the other. On the scale of how large
a project change is in terms of changes that we need to make in Debian,
this one is really on the smaller end of the scale. There's a lot of
work that I've been wanting to push, but I've been patient because we
had the release this year, then DebConf, now we have a GR about GRs, and
it is probably starting to sound that I'm complaining about these, but
I'm not, it's just that making changes- especially changed in Debian,
takes time and patience, but they are necessary, and they do not need to
block technical work. We do have some serious project-level maintenance backlog, part of my DPL campaign for this year was to help address that.
We didn't explore that in too much detail during the voting period, but
I do expect that we'll have quite a few decisions coming up that will be significantly more complicated than a team name change, and I hope that
we can figure out ways to make sure that everyone is heard and that we
don't impede on anyone's work while figuring it all out. But we have to
try, we cannot allow project rot to just continue and risk it spreading
into other areas.

-Jonathan

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On 2021/11/11 21:48, Bastian Blank wrote:

I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird definition of DD and DM.

You left out "non-uploading DD" :)

-Jonathan

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I feel that the benefits and costs estimate are just made up numbers.

I'd like to know if there exists a person in the whole world that would
refuse to cooperate with Debian because of the FTP master name. My totally
made up answer is no. But I could of course be totally wrong.

Best

Il gio 11 nov 2021, 20:48 Felix Lechner <felix.lechner@lease-up.com> ha scritto:

Hi,

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM Bdale Garbee <bdale@gag.com> wrote:

being a good
citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such responsibilities.

No sweat. How about the following?

$500,000 Value of friendly and up-to-date team names [1]
$200,000 Cost of implementation [2]
--------
$300,000 Net benefit to Debian

Please consider, however, that no individual opinion—and especially
not mine—can stand for the group's preferences. As the proposer, I am biased. Why argue?

the workload you
may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote

Voting is a right. [3] Advocates help with the process. The project
imposes decisions by approving or rejecting resolutions. [4]

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

[1] Recruiting 50 excess contributors over ten years, at a lifetime contribution of $10,000 each.
[2] 2,000 hours of work at $100, a rate roughly in line with https://www.debian.org/consultants/
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage
[4] Section 2.1, https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution

<div dir="auto">I feel that the benefits and costs estimate are just made up numbers.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I&#39;d like to know if there exists a person in the whole world that would refuse to cooperate with Debian because of the FTP
master name. My totally made up answer is no. But I could of course be totally wrong.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Best</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">Il gio 11 nov 2021, 20:48 Felix Lechner &
lt;<a href="mailto:felix.lechner@lease-up.com">felix.lechner@lease-up.com</a>&gt; ha scritto:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi,<br>

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 10:28 AM Bdale Garbee &lt;<a href="mailto:bdale@gag.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">bdale@gag.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; being a good<br>
&gt; citizen of a community like Debian means *not* side-stepping such<br>
&gt; responsibilities.<br>

No sweat. How about the following?<br>

$500,000 Value of friendly and up-to-date team names [1]<br>
$200,000 Cost of implementation [2]<br>
--------<br>
$300,000 Net benefit to Debian<br>

Please consider, however, that no individual opinion—and especially<br>
not mine—can stand for the group&#39;s preferences. As the proposer, I am<br> biased. Why argue?<br>

&gt; the workload you<br>
&gt; may be imposing on others by taking something to a project-level vote<br>

Voting is a right. [3] Advocates help with the process. The project<br>
imposes decisions by approving or rejecting resolutions. [4]<br>

Kind regards<br>
Felix Lechner<br>

[1] Recruiting 50 excess contributors over ten years, at a lifetime<br> contribution of $10,000 each.<br>
[2] 2,000 hours of work at $100, a rate roughly in line with<br>
<a href="https://www.debian.org/consultants/" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.debian.org/consultants/</a><br>
[3] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage</a><br>
[4] Section 2.1, <a href="https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.debian.org/devel/constitution</a><br>

</blockquote></div>

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On 11/11/21 8:48 PM, Bastian Blank wrote:

On Thu, Nov 11, 2021 at 02:23:58PM -0500, Daniel Kahn Gillmor wrote:

I'm legitimately surprised to hear that anyone in the Debian project
believes that the term "FTP master" is *not* confused and outdated.

I'm really surprised that ftp master is more important than the weird definition of DD and DM.

Bastian

Wrong wrong wrong ... we're "project members" ... don't you remember? :)
Just like AH is now CT. (Gosh, DMT TLA...)

This shows that it will take years, if not decades, for the rename to
ever be effective (if the person(s) in charge decide(s) it...).

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

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On 16314 March 1977, Thomas Goirand wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong ... we're "project members" ... don't you remember?
:)
Just like AH is now CT. (Gosh, DMT TLA...)

This shows that it will take years, if not decades, for the rename to
ever be effective (if the person(s) in charge decide(s) it...).

Well.
To rename just the team itself - minutes.
To be effective in terms of us mere humans using the new term, years to decades.
To actually adjust all the resources around it ("sub"team names, unix
roles, host (aliases), mail, directory structures, database roles, BTS pseudopackage, dput targets, all the code) may be faster, but a huge
work with lots of breakage possibilities, not all of which solveable as
simple as "then have the old name stay for a while as cname".

And that is just from our view of things and we aren't yet sure we are
complete on that. There are a trillion and two external dependencies on
many of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that.

--
bye, Joerg

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On Fri, 2021-11-12 at 22:14 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

There are a trillion and two external dependencies on many
of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that.

For example, according to codesearch there are around 210 mentions of
the domain in 61 Debian source packages. I have local checkouts of more
than 30 git repositories that mention the domain. There are more if you
search for the team name instead of the domain. Of course many of those
are in very old debian/changelog entries so might not need changing.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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I've seen this whole thread continuing on and just tried to ignore it but
can't in good conscious not add my thoughts on this matter...

TL;DR;

This comes to a GR vote I'll oppose it... Full stop...

Why you may ask? Because I think this is starting to border on ridiculous.
I can not for the life of me think of even one person who would hear "postmaster", "hostmaster", "webmaster" or "FTP master" and instantly think
"OH MY GOD THAT'S TALKING ABOUT SLAVERY!"

Yes, I agree there are a great many systemic issues that this world needs
to be addressed, but this is simply not one of them and I see it solely as
an attempt to make an issue out of something that isn't. The cancel culture mentality is getting out of control. Let's not become a laughing stock like Land O Lakes butter, who because of cancel culture and native
American sensitivity changed their logo and became an instant punch line by removing the Indian from the logo but keeping the land. Cause that's never happened before. This list goes on... Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima.

Unless someone can show some shred of evidence that having the word
"master" in any of these well-known, widely used service names has offended someone who thinks it relates to slavery and racism or even better some technical advantaged to wasting the time debating and going through the
process or erasing the word from a history of usage. There is no point to continue with this worthless debate. There are so many more items that time could be better spent working and addressing.

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 9:03 PM Paul Wise <pabs@debian.org> wrote:

On Fri, 2021-11-12 at 22:14 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

There are a trillion and two external dependencies on many
of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that.

For example, according to codesearch there are around 210 mentions of
the domain in 61 Debian source packages. I have local checkouts of more
than 30 git repositories that mention the domain. There are more if you search for the team name instead of the domain. Of course many of those
are in very old debian/changelog entries so might not need changing.

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

<div dir="ltr">I&#39;ve seen this whole thread continuing on and just tried to ignore it but can&#39;t in good conscious not add my thoughts on this matter... <div><br></div><div>TL;DR;</div><div><br></div><div>This comes to a GR vote I&#39;ll oppose it.
.. Full stop...</div><div><br></div><div>Why you may ask? Because I think this is starting to border on ridiculous. I can not for the life of me think of even one person who would hear &quot;postmaster&quot;, &quot;hostmaster&quot;, &quot;webmaster&quot;
or &quot;FTP master&quot; and instantly think &quot;OH MY GOD THAT&#39;S TALKING ABOUT SLAVERY!&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>Yes, I agree there are a great many systemic issues that this world needs to be addressed, but this is simply not one of them
and I see it solely as an attempt to make an issue out of something that isn&#39;t. The cancel culture mentality is getting out of control. Let&#39;s not become a laughing stock like Land O Lakes butter, who because of cancel culture and native American 
sensitivity changed their logo and became an instant punch line by removing the Indian from the logo but keeping the land. Cause that&#39;s never happened before. This list goes on... Uncle Ben, Aunt Jemima.</div><div><br></div><div>Unless someone can
show some shred of evidence that having the word &quot;master&quot; in any of these well-known, widely used service names has offended someone who thinks it relates to slavery and racism or even better some technical advantaged to wasting the time
debating and going through the process or erasing the word from a history of usage. There is no point to continue with this worthless debate. There are so many more items that time could be better spent working and addressing.</div></div><br><div class="
gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 9:03 PM Paul Wise &lt;<a href="mailto:pabs@debian.org" target="_blank">pabs@debian.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Fri, 2021-11-12 at 22:14 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:<br>

&gt; There are a trillion and two external dependencies on many<br>
&gt; of the above that take extra work and ages on top of that.<br>

For example, according to codesearch there are around 210 mentions of<br>
the domain in 61 Debian source packages. I have local checkouts of more<br> than 30 git repositories that mention the domain. There are more if you<br> search for the team name instead of the domain. Of course many of those<br>
are in very old debian/changelog entries so might not need changing.<br>

-- <br>
bye,<br>
pabs<br>

<a href="https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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