On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 01:56:32PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

A vote has been called.

Nope, can't have been.

The last amendment (before mine) was accepted on March 30th, which means the earliest a vote can be called with a shortened 1 week discussion period is April 7th.

Any CFV before then is invalid.

craig

--
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:38:23PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 09:33:48AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the
Free Software Foundation.

----------------

The discussion period is over, no new options will be added.

Since when is it over?

The DPL changing the *minimum* discussion period is a minimum only, it
does not set a maximum.

A vote has been called.


Kurt

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 01:08:50PM +0200, Micha Lenk wrote:

Hi Adrian,

Am 03.04.21 um 10:25 schrieb Adrian Bunk:

Craig, if you make this a new separate GR I will be glad to sponsor it.

Do you (or anybody actually) have a idea how to deal best with the old RMS
GR if this one is formally accepted?

One option would be to run both in parallel.

The anti-witch-hunt option would have been option [G] had there not been
a public request that someone should call for a vote 1.5 hours after the unsigned version of this amendment was proposed, it would sound logical
to ask for it to be voted at the same time even now that it has been
forced to turn this into a separate GR.

Regards,
Micha

cu
Adrian

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 01:56:32PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:38:23PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 09:33:48AM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the
Free Software Foundation.

----------------

The discussion period is over, no new options will be added.

Since when is it over?

The DPL changing the *minimum* discussion period is a minimum only, it
does not set a maximum.

A vote has been called.

For the record, I would like to state that Kurt is doing the right
thing by being a neutral project secretary who executes the rules.

If decisions made by people other than Kurt make it impossible for this
option to be an amendment, then he is not to blame.

Kurt

cu
Adrian

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 02:12:25PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

This has been discussed before. It did not reset the minimum discussion
time.

oh wow, a discussion. and a discussion has the power to change debian's constitution?


in any case: it will be wonderful to see Debian commit Libel against Richard Stallman, The FSF, and the individual board members of the FSF.

Like, has anyone actually read that open letter on github.io? There are numerous actionable libels against all of those parties.


I hope the supporters of this GR are willing to be personally liable, since they're the ones pushing for it.

craig

--
craig sanders <cas@taz.net.au>

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 02:12:25PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:59:53PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

The last amendment (before mine) was accepted on March 30th, which means the
earliest a vote can be called with a shortened 1 week discussion period is April 7th.

Any CFV before then is invalid.

This has been discussed before. It did not reset the minimum
discussion time.

Constitution, A.2.4:

# The minimum discussion period is counted from the time the last formal
# amendment was accepted, or since the whole resolution was proposed if no
# amendments have been proposed and accepted.

Craig is correct.


Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ .--[ Makefile ]
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ # beware of races
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ all: pillage burn
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ `----

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Hi Adam,

Am 03.04.21 um 14:31 schrieb Adam Borowski:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 02:12:25PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:59:53PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

The last amendment (before mine) was accepted on March 30th, which means the
earliest a vote can be called with a shortened 1 week discussion period is >>> April 7th.

Any CFV before then is invalid.

This has been discussed before. It did not reset the minimum
discussion time.

Constitution, A.2.4:

# The minimum discussion period is counted from the time the last formal
# amendment was accepted, or since the whole resolution was proposed if no
# amendments have been proposed and accepted.

Craig is correct.

No. As Kurt pointed out earlier (https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/04/msg00117.html) no
amendment was accepted yet, so the minimum discussion time wasn't reset.

Anyhow, in any doubt, the interpretation of our constitution in this
regard is all up to Kurt by virtue of the current delegation.

Regards,
Micha

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Hi,

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 12:34 AM Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be> wrote:

The discussion period is over, no new options will be added.

That does not seem right. The submission arrived during the discussion
period and was only formally deficient, yes?

Since the discussion period was already shortened and we also rely on
a particular reading of unclear wording in the constitution, I think
it would further the sense of democratic expression to accept Craig's submission.

As an additional consideration, Craig's proposal joins a much smaller
set of options on the side favoring Richard Stallman, which leads to
greater balance among the options presented on the ballot.

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 11:21:52PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 02:12:25PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

This has been discussed before. It did not reset the minimum discussion time.

oh wow, a discussion. and a discussion has the power to change debian's constitution?
...

Kurt is right on that, but it might have been more helpful if he had
copied the relevant part of our constitution:

A formal amendment may be accepted by the resolution's proposer, in
which case the formal resolution draft is immediately changed to match.

If a formal amendment is not accepted, or one of the sponsors of the
resolution does not agree with the acceptance by the proposer of a
formal amendment, the amendment remains as an amendment and will be
voted on.

craig

cu
Adrian

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:59:53PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 01:56:32PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote:

A vote has been called.

Nope, can't have been.

The last amendment (before mine) was accepted on March 30th, which means the earliest a vote can be called with a shortened 1 week discussion period is April 7th.

Any CFV before then is invalid.

This has been discussed before. It did not reset the minimum
discussion time.


Kurt

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Hi Craig,

Am 03.04.21 um 14:21 schrieb Craig Sanders:

This has been discussed before. It did not reset the minimum discussion
time.

oh wow, a discussion. and a discussion has the power to change debian's constitution?

Debian's constitution wasn't changed. Please calm down and read up in
the other thread how this question was answered before. https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2021/04/msg00117.html

Regards,
Micha

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

seconded

cu
Adrian
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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 05:48:47AM -0700, Felix Lechner wrote:

Hi,

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 12:34 AM Kurt Roeckx <kurt@roeckx.be> wrote:

The discussion period is over, no new options will be added.

That does not seem right. The submission arrived during the discussion
period and was only formally deficient, yes?

There was actually no signed amendment before the call for vote.
But it still requires at least 5 people the sponsor it.

Since the discussion period was already shortened and we also rely on
a particular reading of unclear wording in the constitution, I think
it would further the sense of democratic expression to accept Craig's submission.

If you really think we need more options, you will need to have
enough sponsor before 18 UTC, 4 hours from now.


Kurt

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TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

seconded

Best

Norbert


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Quoting Craig Sanders (2021-04-03 01:56:45)

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

Seconded.

I would have preferred more time to discuss wording, but that was not
sadly provided.


- Jonas

--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============v67645922059505422=MIME-Version: 1.0
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Quoting Craig Sanders (2021-04-03 01:56:45)

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the >> Free Software Foundation.

----------------

seconded.


Yours Sincerely,
Paul




--RPAIVSZbMxqBjbmLbCb9VxLbe5rx6aARh--

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Le samedi 03 avril 2021 � 17:38:17+0200, Kurt Roeckx a �crit�:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

Someone please propose what the name of the option on the ballot
should be, and where I should put it in the order.

Move choice 7 to 8 and put it seven.

[ ] Choice 7: Rejecting and denouncing a witch-hunt against RMS.

(maybe Craig has a better idea)

--
Pierre-Elliott B�cue
GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2
It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them.

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

seconded

Cheers,

- --Barak.
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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

Someone please propose what the name of the option on the ballot
should be, and where I should put it in the order.


Kurt

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

Seconded.

I'd prefer a more positive wording, such as "Debian re-affirms the
Diversity Statement as written, and thus denounces ...", but your version is good enough.


Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian is one big family. Including that weird uncle ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ and ultra-religious in-laws.
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀

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Am 03.04.21 um 01:56 schrieb Craig Sanders:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt
against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the
members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

Seconded. Thanks.

Micha

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 06:21:54PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

Seconded.

I'd prefer a more positive wording, such as "Debian re-affirms the
Diversity Statement as written, and thus denounces ...", but your version is good enough.

I will not accept any changes other than what I think is minor at
this point, except when there are enough people to confirm that
change.


Kurt

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Quoting Adam Borowski (2021-04-03 18:21:54)

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

Seconded.

I'd prefer a more positive wording, such as "Debian re-affirms the
Diversity Statement as written, and thus denounces ...", but your version is good enough.

Seconded.

I really dislike this communication style, seemingly a direct
consequence of the choice to shorten the discussion time.

- Jonas

--
* Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
* Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

[x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private --==============H86129280375341026=MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 6:15 PM Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 10:56:45AM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------
Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.
----------------

I'd sponsor this if this were actually neutrally worded like "Debian refuses to participate in the discussion of Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation,
and the members of the board of the Free Software Foundation."

Though even that is a statement.

Just like naming of GNU, it's not what it is.

Quite fits OSS philosophy, so I'd probably vote for this if it becomes
an official option.

Cheers,
--
Roger Shimizu, GMT +9 Tokyo
PGP/GPG: 4096R/6C6ACD6417B3ACB1

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 07:15:22PM +0200, Micha Lenk wrote:

My previous attempt yielded an invalid signature for me, so, trying again with
a different mailer...

This one worked.


Kurt

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My previous attempt yielded an invalid signature for me, so, trying again with a different mailer...

Am 03.04.21 um 01:56 schrieb Craig Sanders:

Short and simple:

TEXT OF OPTION 5
----------------

Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt
against Richard Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the
members of the board of the Free Software Foundation.

----------------

Seconded. Thanks.

Micha


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The option has been committed to the website, it should appear
soon.

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On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 05:43:38PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott B�cue wrote:

Move choice 7 to 8 and put it seven.

[ ] Choice 7: Rejecting and denouncing a witch-hunt against RMS.

(maybe Craig has a better idea)

Thanks, looks good....except for two problems:

1. you've used the wrong article "a" instead of "the". It's gramatically incorrect, this isn't one of multiple witch-hunts, there's only one, singular. So "the" is the correct article.

2. the witch-hunt is against the FSF board as well as RMS - that's kind of
what makes it a witch-hunt, rather than just persecution of an individual.

[ ] Choice 7: Rejecting and denouncing the witch-hunt against RMS & the FSF.

craig

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On Sun, Apr 04, 2021 at 09:14:31AM +1000, Craig Sanders wrote:

On Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 05:43:38PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott B�cue wrote:

Move choice 7 to 8 and put it seven.

[ ] Choice 7: Rejecting and denouncing a witch-hunt against RMS.

(maybe Craig has a better idea)

Thanks, looks good....except for two problems:

1. you've used the wrong article "a" instead of "the". It's gramatically incorrect, this isn't one of multiple witch-hunts, there's only one, singular.
So "the" is the correct article.

2. the witch-hunt is against the FSF board as well as RMS - that's kind of what makes it a witch-hunt, rather than just persecution of an individual.

[ ] Choice 7: Rejecting and denouncing the witch-hunt against RMS & the FSF.

I think I just changed all places from:
Denounce a witch-hunt against RMS and the FSF
to:
Denounce the witch-hunt against RMS and the FSF


(Website is rebuilding, should be online in about 5 minutes.)


Kurt

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Kurt Roeckx dijo [Sat, Apr 03, 2021 at 08:38:24PM +0200]:

The option has been committed to the website, it should appear soon.

Thanks, Kurt.

The vote is now in progress, and it does include this option. I just
felt needed to state that I didn't include it in my call for vote
because, early yesterday when I sent it, it was not yet in the website
-- it was not yet an amendment accepted by the Project Secretary. Of
course, I am completely OK with it being part of the vote (in case
anyone wondered about my opinion ;-) )

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Debian refuses to participate in and denounces the witch-hunt against Richard
Stallman, the Free Software Foundation, and the members of the board of the >> Free Software Foundation.

seconded

And bingo, I now have a complete card! I should go get a celebratory
drink instead of continuing to affirm my conclusion that Debian has
become such a toxic place to be putting my energy.

--
Martina Ferrari (Tina)

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Ah, Adam, sending unsolicited private email? Fuck that, you were in the
first line on my bingo card.

On 07/04/2021 22:03, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 04:18:03PM +0100, Martina Ferrari wrote:

And bingo, I now have a complete card! I should go get a celebratory drink >> instead of continuing to affirm my conclusion that Debian has become such a >> toxic place to be putting my energy.

Considering that you have already driven Norbert off once, could you please stop? Or better, actually put some of your energy to technical
contributions -- something Debian really needs.

Lol, "trot" off dude.

Comparing measurable contributions (like, uploads or BTS stats) of you vs Norbert, I'd say that with damage you've done, excluding just him alone for
a few months would take years of work for the net to not be negative.

Poor poor Norbert, so oppressed, you think he needs help of people like
you. No, as much as I would want, he is way more capable than that, the
kind of person one needs to be careful about.

BTW, your amazingly stupid retort to number of contributions reminds me
of another character that is also fanning the flames in this list (and
also was on my bingo card, I am on a roll!!) and that for years made
sure that all my efforts to make the golang team work better went to the crapper.

Spreading some toxic _exclusive_ ideology in the name of "inclusion" isn't helpful. I understand that you want Debian to be safe for contributors, but your actual actions are anything but.

Thus: let's work together? Like, for example, I'd be glad to invite you to my usual haunt: https://bugs.debian.org/sponsorship-requests -- there's a huge backlog of golang related requests, which I for one can't answer (I don't speak golang), and no other sponsor has stepped up to either.
I believe this is an important task for building the community -- Debian
will dry out unless we can see that the work of new contributors gets reviewed and accepted on a timely basis.

LOL, you are amusing some times.

--
Martina Ferrari (Tina)

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Hi Tina

On 2021/04/08 06:15, Martina Ferrari wrote:

Ah, Adam, sending unsolicited private email? Fuck that, you were in the
first line on my bingo card.

Personally, I would've ignored an unsolicited post like that and deleted
it. Not that I'm telling you that's what you should've done, but you
don't have to feel responsible to reply to everything that lands inside
your inbox.

On a broader level, please don't forward private mails to public lists,
it's bad behaviour that we should really stomp out within Debian. If you receive a mail that happens to be abusive, please rather forward it to
CT and DAM rather than giving someone the exact type of attention that
they might have been seeking in a public forum.

thanks,

-Jonathan

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Hi,

On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 9:33 PM Martina Ferrari <tina@debian.org> wrote:

Fuck that
you were in the first line on my bingo card.
Lol, "trot" off dude.
your amazingly stupid retort
another character that is also fanning the flames in this list
and also was on my bingo card, I am on a roll!!
all my efforts ... went to the crapper.

I find this language thuggish and abusive. It is not worthwhile
reading and can spoil a person's day. Why is a person allowed to post
something like this, and why do we look outside Debian to blame
people? We have plenty of problems at home.

Kind regards
Felix Lechner

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And bingo, I now have a complete card! I should go get a celebratory
drink instead of continuing to affirm my conclusion that Debian has
become such a toxic place to be putting my energy.

What an important contribution from someone who has been on the AH/CT
Team, but cannot accept different opinions.

Martina, could you please stop your irrelevant whining?

Thanks

Norbert

--
PREINING Norbert https://www.preining.info
Fujitsu + IFMGA Guide + TU Wien + TeX Live + Debian Dev
GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13

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