Hi Scott,

Am Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 12:42:11PM +0000 schrieb Scott Kitterman:

I'm interested to understand what you think this has to do with the DPL election or the role of the DPL within the project?

I would like to learn what options I have to realise paragraph

Packaging standards

of my platform.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 02:32:45PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

[ ] Its not acceptable, don't do that
[ ] We should discuss this on debian-devel, possibly do some GR
before things like this are permitted
[ ] Wait one week before uploading
[X] Wait one day before uploading
[ ] Just upload provided you care for any break your action might
have caused.
[ ] ???

For a younger RC bug, use a longer waiting period. But here things are
clear that nothing would happen in a week.

And, of course, anyway, care for any break you have caused.

As a maintainer, seeing my package break after an NMU, I would sit tight
and silent for a few days and wait for the NMUer to fix their damage.

Greetings
Marc


-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marc Haber | "I don't trust Computers. They | Mailadresse im Header Leimen, Germany | lose things." Winona Ryder | Fon: *49 6224 1600402 Nordisch by Nature | How to make an American Quilt | Fax: *49 6224 1600421

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On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 02:59:34PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

I would like to learn what options I have to realise paragraph
Packaging standards
of my platform.

I also think this feels a bit like abusing the election audience for a
topic which should be discussed on -devel outside campaigning.


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

The greatest danger in times of turbulence is not the turbulence;
it is to act with yesterdays logic. (Peter Drucker)

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Hi Tobias,

Am Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 07:59:56PM +0200 schrieb Tobias Frost:

There is the possilbity to salavage the packagei [1], but that of course will only work if the person agrees to take over maintainance and add their name to
Uploaders: or Maintainer: [2].

I want to be able to immediately respond to future problems in this
package. I'm fine with putting Debian Med team as maintainer, but not
my personal ID (maximum as Uploader since I do not have any personal
packages).

Do you think this would be the appropriate action (which I personally
would even prefer over debian/ space)? The conservative criteria
are fulfilled.

Kind regards
Andreas.

The package can be put into a team's umbrella at the ITS time. This
does not need an explicit OK, though the maintainer can veto.

[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.en.html#package-salvaging
https://wiki.debian.org/PackageSalvaging

[2] This is a feature, the ITS procedure has been designed exactly that
way, to avoid that people just do an upload and drop the package
immediatly afterwards, as this will likely only upset the current
maintainer without long-term benefits to the package - kind of to
avoid the reaction Marc predicted.
If taking over the maintaince is not the goal, remember NMU allow
one to fix almost every bug, also wishlist bugs are regularily in
scope. And bugs can be filed, if needed.
Some Background story: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00453.html

--
tobi

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Hi Andreas,

On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 02:32:45PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

Hi,

in the light of the previous discussion I have a question to all voters.
Due to bug #1066377 more than 30 testing removal warnings hit my mailbox today (I stopped counting after 30). While the Debian Med package
clustalo is the only package that's responsible for this due to its Build-Dependency from libargtable2-dev there is quite some dependency
tree inside Debian Med team also affecting packages relevant for
COVID-19 etc. This small lib is not a key package which is important
for all things I'm writing below. Its used as Build-Depends by 6 other packages.

Our always busy team member �tienne Mollier provided a patch 10 days ago (thanks again �tienne). The package had its last maintainer Upload

-- Shachar Shemesh <shachar@debian.org> Sat, 16 Jul 2016 20:45:15 +0300

(Shachar in CC) and a NMU

-- Holger Levsen <holger@debian.org> Fri, 01 Jan 2021 17:15:04 +0100

(reproducible build, no changes - in other words no problems since
2016). However, the BTS view of Sanchar might hinting for some
inactivity when looking at two RC bugs in other packages:

#965787 privbind: Removal of obsolete debhelper compat 5 and 6 in bookworm
#998987 [src:privbind] privbind: missing required debian/rules targets build-arch and/or build-indep

As I wrote to Marc here on this list also the explicit hint to Shachar:
Its not about blaming you - I just want to analyse the current situation
to act properly. Given that you had no capacity to respond to two bugs
that are RC since 2 years makes me wonder how long I need to wait for
your OK to a team upload I'm proposing below. I'm perfectly aware that
we as volunteers can't be blamed about those things. I simply want to
find new ways how to deal with those situations appropriately.

There is the possilbity to salavage the packagei [1], but that of course will only work if the person agrees to take over maintainance and add their name to Uploaders: or Maintainer: [2].
The package can be put into a team's umbrella at the ITS time. This
does not need an explicit OK, though the maintainer can veto.

[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.en.html#package-salvaging
https://wiki.debian.org/PackageSalvaging

[2] This is a feature, the ITS procedure has been designed exactly that
way, to avoid that people just do an upload and drop the package
immediatly afterwards, as this will likely only upset the current
maintainer without long-term benefits to the package - kind of to
avoid the reaction Marc predicted.
If taking over the maintaince is not the goal, remember NMU allow
one to fix almost every bug, also wishlist bugs are regularily in
scope. And bugs can be filed, if needed.
Some Background story: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00453.html

--
tobi

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On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 02:32:45PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

[...] I could follow the normal NMU procedure but I do not consider
this a sustainable solution.

[...]

I did not uploaded my work but I would like to know what action is
considered acceptable by the voters. I repeat that the package is no
key package for which I would not consider what I did above. Please
simply fill in the form:

[ ] Its not acceptable, don't do that
[ ] We should discuss this on debian-devel, possibly do some GR
before things like this are permitted
[ ] Wait one week before uploading
[ ] Wait one day before uploading
[ ] Just upload provided you care for any break your action might
have caused.
[ ] ???

What do you think?

rereading this, I must say I think "wtf".

please *do* follow the NMU procedures or salvage the package. (or leave it alone.)

also: (NMU-)uploads to DELAYED/15 are great.


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts.

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On Thursday, April 4, 2024 5:32:45 AM MST Andreas Tille wrote:

[ ] Its not acceptable, don't do that
[ ] We should discuss this on debian-devel, possibly do some GR
before things like this are permitted
[ ] Wait one week before uploading
[X] Wait one day before uploading
[ ] Just upload provided you care for any break your action might
have caused.
[ ] ???

Given the circumstances, I think waiting one day before uploading is appropriate.

I also feel that asking this question on this list is appropriate. It is insightful in helping me understand how Andreas would approach being the DPL, thus informing my vote.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Fri, Apr 05, 2024 at 12:37:19PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

Hi Tobias,

Am Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 07:59:56PM +0200 schrieb Tobias Frost:

There is the possilbity to salavage the packagei [1], but that of course will
only work if the person agrees to take over maintainance and add their name to
Uploaders: or Maintainer: [2].

I want to be able to immediately respond to future problems in this
package. I'm fine with putting Debian Med team as maintainer, but not
my personal ID (maximum as Uploader since I do not have any personal packages).

Do you think this would be the appropriate action (which I personally
would even prefer over debian/ space)? The conservative criteria
are fulfilled.

Yes, (if your name is in Uploaders:) this is is fine.

Kind regards
Andreas.

The package can be put into a team's umbrella at the ITS time. This
does not need an explicit OK, though the maintainer can veto.

[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/pkgs.en.html#package-salvaging
https://wiki.debian.org/PackageSalvaging

[2] This is a feature, the ITS procedure has been designed exactly that
way, to avoid that people just do an upload and drop the package
immediatly afterwards, as this will likely only upset the current
maintainer without long-term benefits to the package - kind of to
avoid the reaction Marc predicted.
If taking over the maintaince is not the goal, remember NMU allow
one to fix almost every bug, also wishlist bugs are regularily in
scope. And bugs can be filed, if needed.
Some Background story: https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2018/07/msg00453.html

--
tobi

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Am Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 01:04:49PM +0000 schrieb Holger Levsen:

On Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 02:59:34PM +0200, Andreas Tille wrote:

I would like to learn what options I have to realise paragraph
Packaging standards
of my platform.

I also think this feels a bit like abusing the election audience for a
topic

Fair enough. I personally have seen the campaigning period as a way
voters might learn how I intend to work. You can take my message also
as my style of leadership to ask in advance to get some picture.

which should be discussed on -devel outside campaigning.

I confirm debian-devel is the right place to discuss this issue in
detail and for sure I would move (or better reopen) the discussion there.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi again,

Am Sat, Apr 06, 2024 at 09:26:25AM +0200 schrieb Tobias Frost:

I want to be able to immediately respond to future problems in this package. I'm fine with putting Debian Med team as maintainer, but not
my personal ID (maximum as Uploader since I do not have any personal packages).

Do you think this would be the appropriate action (which I personally
would even prefer over debian/ space)? The conservative criteria
are fulfilled.

Yes, (if your name is in Uploaders:) this is is fine.

I've filed ITS bug #1068561.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Am Thu, Apr 04, 2024 at 10:14:59AM -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:

On Thursday, April 4, 2024 5:32:45 AM MST Andreas Tille wrote:

[ ] Its not acceptable, don't do that
[ ] We should discuss this on debian-devel, possibly do some GR
before things like this are permitted
[ ] Wait one week before uploading
[X] Wait one day before uploading
[ ] Just upload provided you care for any break your action might
have caused.
[ ] ???

Given the circumstances, I think waiting one day before uploading is appropriate.

I also feel that asking this question on this list is appropriate. It is insightful in helping me understand how Andreas would approach being the DPL, thus informing my vote.

Summarising my question about how to deal with an example RC bug that affects some dependency tree of some team:

1. Prefer NMU which solves the problem quickly. I do not volunteer to
do this since I do not consider it sustainable in the said situation.
2. Prefer package salvaging (which I did now #1068561 but its a lengthy
process that will trigger another series of testing removal warnings
in between)
3. Two responses would agree to an alternative way which are not backed up
by any procedure we agreed upon so I will not do this. I wonder whether
we can use this as some input to simplify / shorten the salvage process
or whether we should move on as before.


Additional remark: When reading the PackageSalvaging FAQ[1] I realised
that my way to talk about examples might be considered finger pointing
no matter whether I write that this is not intended. I understand I was
wrong here and I'm sorry about doing so. I do not intend to do this in
future any more.

Kind regards
Andreas.


[1] https://wiki.debian.org/PackageSalvaging#FAQs

--
https://fam-tille.de

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