Greetings candidates,

QUESTION TO THE CANDIDATES: what are your quantitative diversity goals
and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and metrics?

Some context:

Both platforms cite imbalances in the areas of gender and geography as
concerns contributing to each candidate's desire to serve as DPL.

Andreas: "Currently, there is a notable over representation of male contributors originating from countries typically considered
industrialized."

Sruthi: "... more gender diverse people will feel comfortable joining
our community. Geographic/ethnic diversity are also important areas
which need attention."

(I should note that Sruthi's platform dedicated considerably more space
to the issue of diversity, but the particular statement I chose to quote
seemed representative.)

Some examples of the sort of thing I have in mind:

- Debian should represent the geographic diversity of the whole world.

The populations of China and India each represent approximately 17.5% of
the world population, while the population of the next most populous
nation, the United States, represents 4.2% of the world population [0].
In the last GR there were 1004 voting DDs. Based on those figures, a geographically representative population of DDs would include 175 DDs
from China, 175 DDs from India, and 42 DDs from the United States (and
so on down the line). Based on this composition, it seems likely that
the Debian project has adequate representation of United States DDs, so
the project should hold more events in and around India and China and
focus outreach efforts in those particular geographic areas with a goal
of gaining 5 new Indian and 5 new Chinese DDs each year.

- Debian should represent the gender diversity of the whole world.

The world population is split approximately 50/50 male and female (with
a very slight bias towards more males) [1], with "transgender people and
other gender minorities, who comprise an estimated 0.3–0.5% (25 million)
of the global population" [2]. Using the above figure of 1004 DDs, a
balanced Debian population could be 500 male DDs, 499 female DDs, and 5
DDs who identify as transgender or another gender minority. Based on
this composition, it seems likely that Debian has adequate
representation of transgender and gender minority DDs, so focusing
efforts specifically on outreach to women would provide the greatest
benefit towards achieving a balanced representation.

Again, these are merely examples. I am interested in how you define
diversity and what metrics and goals you derive from that definition.

Regards,

-Roberto

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio
[2] https://web.archive.org/web/20220131080803/https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions/whoeurope-brief-transgender-health-in-the-context-of-icd-11

--
Roberto C. Sánchez

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Hi Roberto,

Am Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 08:26:06PM -0400 schrieb Roberto C. Sánchez:

QUESTION TO THE CANDIDATES: what are your quantitative diversity goals
and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and metrics?

Some context:
...
In the last GR there were 1004 voting DDs. Based on those figures, a geographically representative population of DDs would include 175 DDs
from China, 175 DDs from India, and 42 DDs from the United States (and
so on down the line).

Nice visualisation of the problem.

a very slight bias towards more males) [1], with "transgender people and other gender minorities, who comprise an estimated 0.3–0.5% (25 million)
of the global population" [2]. Using the above figure of 1004 DDs, a
balanced Debian population could be 500 male DDs, 499 female DDs, and 5
DDs who identify as transgender or another gender minority. Based on

Same here.

Again, these are merely examples. I am interested in how you define
diversity and what metrics and goals you derive from that definition.

We are all aware of the issue you are eloquently illustrating. I will
not make false promises and give any metrics I intend to reach as DPL.
The reason behind the current metrics are well known problems in our
world. As DPL I do not have the power to make the world a better place.
The DPL task is making Debian a better place for discriminated people
and I love to work together with Sruthi on this - no matter who will be elected.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Hi Andreas,

Thank you for responding to my question.

On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:28:52AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:

We are all aware of the issue you are eloquently illustrating. I will
not make false promises and give any metrics I intend to reach as DPL.
The reason behind the current metrics are well known problems in our
world. As DPL I do not have the power to make the world a better place.
The DPL task is making Debian a better place for discriminated people
and I love to work together with Sruthi on this - no matter who will be elected.

Very well.

Let me ask a follow-up question.

From your platform: "Currently, there is a notable over representation

of male contributors originating from countries typically considered industrialized."

If you refuse to give any quantitative goals or metrics that you intend
to reach as DPL, then could you explain how you quantify the *current*
state of Debian in the area of diversity? That is, precisely what do you
mean by the above statement from your platform?

You mention in your reply, "The reason behind the current metrics are
well known problems in our world." Perhaps, but could you be clear about
which particular metrics are the problem at the moment?

I can infer that you likely view the current ratio of around 3% women
(33/1004) and around 96% men ((1004-33)/1004) [0] (and, yes, I recognize
that this does not account for gender minority individuals, but I was
not able to locate figures for that group). However, what is not clear
is at what point, in your own view, the situation is imbalanced. Would
you consider 65% men, 25% women, and 10% gender minority to have an overrepresentation of men? What about 40% men, 45% women, and 15% gender minority? Or what about 20% men, 30% women, and 50% gender minority?

The situation for geographic diversity is certainly much more difficult
to describe. For instance, we have some information on the locations of
Debian Developers [1]. But is someone's "location" the same as their citizenship, or their nationality, or their ethnic origin? And which of
these dimensions should be the focus or primary factor?

The point is that the judgment "this is imbalanced" conveys as much
meaning as "this is beautiful" or "this is ugly". However, while
qualitative judgments may be appropriate in qualitative situations and
while they may help initiate the converstion in quantitative situations, qualitative judgments are not useful for measuring and improving
quantitative situations. Else, you could say "there is a notable over representation of male contributors" and I could say "there is a notable *underrepresentation* of male contributors" and there would be no
meaningful way to decide which is the more valid statement. Just as how
looking at a work of art one person could say "this is beautiful" and
another "this is ugly" and we would find ourselves at the same sort of
impasse.

You also mention in your reply, "As DPL I do not have the power to make
the world a better place." I think that the DPL does have some ability
to influence the world. However, the DPL has an even greater ability to
shape the project. You claim that the current state is problematic, so
it seems reasonable that there is some underlying criteria that causes
you to reach the conclusion "this is a problem".

In any event, rather than infer what you might believe, I thought it
more respectful and helpful to ask you give some insight into how you
shaped your view so that those who consider voting for you might
understand how you would like to reshape the Debian project.

Regards,

-Roberto

[0] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianWomen/Projects/Statistics
[1] https://www.debian.org/devel///developers.loc.en.html

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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"Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:

Roberto> I can infer that you likely view the current ratio of around 3% women
Roberto> (33/1004) and around 96% men ((1004-33)/1004) [0] (and, yes, I recognize
Roberto> that this does not account for gender minority individuals, but I was
Roberto> not able to locate figures for that group). However, what is not clear
Roberto> is at what point, in your own view, the situation is imbalanced. Would
Roberto> you consider 65% men, 25% women, and 10% gender minority to have an
Roberto> overrepresentation of men?

Why does it matter?
It seems implausible that we would get from 3% women to a point where
we had a good gender balance in a year?

So why does the particular threshold matter at all?

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On Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 03:59:13PM -0600, Sam Hartman wrote:

"Roberto" == Roberto C S�nchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:

Roberto> I can infer that you likely view the current ratio of around 3% women
Roberto> (33/1004) and around 96% men ((1004-33)/1004) [0] (and, yes, I recognize
Roberto> that this does not account for gender minority individuals, but I was
Roberto> not able to locate figures for that group). However, what is not clear
Roberto> is at what point, in your own view, the situation is imbalanced. Would
Roberto> you consider 65% men, 25% women, and 10% gender minority to have an
Roberto> overrepresentation of men?

Why does it matter?
It seems implausible that we would get from 3% women to a point where
we had a good gender balance in a year?

So why does the particular threshold matter at all?

Because underrepresentation of women is not the stated problem. The
stated problem is "overrepresentation of males" (according to Andreas)
and a lack of "gender diversity" (according to Sruthi), which are rather
a different sort of thing. I gave my example as just that. An example of
what a clear quantitative statement of the problem/solution might look
like.

Without a clear statement of the goal, desired, or preferred diversity
mix it is not possible to have a discussion about whether any particular proposed policy or program is likely to be beneficial or detrimental.

For example, if the goal is to have the population of Debian Developers represent the gender diversity of the general population of the world,
then I would argue that we have an overrepresentation of males and
likewise an overrepsentation of gender minorities. So, efforts to
increase participation specifically by gender minorities would not
contribute towards achieving the stated goal and in fact would
potentially even be counterproductive.

If however, the goal is to have a population of Debian Devlopers with a substantial overrepresentation of gender minority individuals as
compared to the proportion of the general population, say 20% of Debian Developers, then the discussion is entirely different. It would be
necessary to decide whether the resulting necessary underrepresentation
among men and women would be borne by men alone (i.e., we would set a
target of 30% men and approximately 50% women) or whether they would
share it (i.e., 40/40). And the resulting outreach efforts of the
project may end up looking rather different.

In any event, it is very obviously a relevant issue, as both candidates mentioned it in their platforms. And both candidates should be able to
easily and clearly state something like "as DPL I will support policies
that bring the population of Debian Developers towards a composition of
X% men, Y% women, and W% gender minority individuals", "as DPL I will
support policies to increase the number of gender minority DDs by Z%",
or something along those lines.

Sam, you argue that we can't achieve the goal, but nobody has even
quantified what the goal is. Besides, if the issue is that the
candidates are uncomfortable setting goals that cannot be achieved
during a single term, then fine. Set goals that can be achieved in a
single term and let's work toward them. But for goodness sake, they need
to say what the goals are or else we are just talking circles.

I find it rather frustrating that both candidates have essentially
stated "this is a problem" and when asked "please use quantifiable terms
to describe a particular state where this is no longer a problem" one
candidate refused and the other simply did not respond. This makes me
gravely concerned for the Debian project and quality of leadership that
it can expect going forward.

So, I repeat my question to the candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those
goals and metrics?

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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Hi Robert,

Am Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:30:51AM -0400 schrieb Roberto C. S�nchez:

...
In any event, rather than infer what you might believe, I thought it
more respectful and helpful to ask you give some insight into how you
shaped your view so that those who consider voting for you might
understand how you would like to reshape the Debian project.

Since you are repeatedly asking for measures I might like to add that
I'm very keen on giving *everybody* a fair chance to contribute. Our
platform for contribution is Salsa. One of my measures is how many
packages are maintained on this platform. I sometimes make UDD queries
like:

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT source, maintainer, uploaders, vcs_browser FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and (maintainer ilike '%Roberto%anch%' or uploaders ilike '%Roberto%anch%') and (vcs_url not like '%salsa%' or vcs_url is null) order by source;

source | maintainer | uploaders | vcs_browser
----------------+--------------------------------------------------------------+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------+-------------------------------------
------------------
bmagic | Athena Capital Research <acr-debian@athenacr.com> | Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com> |
cpuset | Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com> | |
libmongocrypt | Mongo C Driver Team <mongo-c-driver-debian@googlegroups.com> | Kevin Albertson <kevin.albertson@mongodb.com>, Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com>, Kyle Kloberdanz <kyle.kloberdanz@mongodb.com> |
luabind | Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com> | |
mongo-c-driver | Mongo C Driver Team <mongo-c-driver-debian@googlegroups.com> | Kevin Albertson <kevin.albertson@mongodb.com>, Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com>, Kyle Kloberdanz <kyle.kloberdanz@mongodb.com> | https://github.com/mongodb/mongo-c-
driver/tree/master
mysql++ | Athena Capital Research <acr-debian@athenacr.com> | Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com> |
quickfix | Athena Capital Research <acr-debian@athenacr.com> | Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com> |
sparsehash | Athena Capital Research <acr-debian@athenacr.com> | Roberto C. Sanchez <roberto@connexer.com> |
(8 rows)

While you have other packages maintaines on Salsa

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT count(*) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and (maintainer ilike '%Roberto%anch%' or uploaders ilike '%Roberto%anch%') and vcs_url like '%salsa%' ;
count
-------
10
(1 row)

BTW, thanks for maintaining 18 packages in Debian and thanks even more
for having the majority on Salsa.

However, I'm honestly curious about the motivations behind your decision
to not use Salsa regarding the apparent lack of opportunity for broader contributions to the packages you are maintaining. You are by far not
the only maintainer in this aspect but I'm interested in specific
reasons of people who care about an open environment. I'm particularly interested in hearing your perspective on this matter, especially in
light of my own proposal outlined in the "Lower Barriers" section of my platform.

So if you want one metric I'm keen on then it might be this one:

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT count(*) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and vcs_url like '%salsa%' ;
33703
udd=> SELECT DISTINCT count(*) FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and vcs_url not like '%salsa%' ;
2368

I would like to push the latter number below 2000. You can help me in
doing so in 8 cases if you agree with me that it helps newcomers to
have a common platform for development on Debian.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Hello,

I don't know why Roberto doesn't always use salsa but I can tell you why I do not.

I am also the original author of packages, and since I am told that salsa is only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be there, for me it is easier to keep packaging and development on a single repository. Which of course can't be salsa.

It used to be sourceforge, galileo from my university (salsa didn't even exist then), google code, github and lately I'm slowly moving everything to
codeberg.

Best


--
Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

https://ltworf.codeberg.page/
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Hi Salvo,

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 09:49:24AM +0100 schrieb Salvo Tomaselli:

I am also the original author of packages, and since I am told that salsa is only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be there, for me it is easier to keep packaging and development on a single repository. Which of course can't be salsa.

It used to be sourceforge, galileo from my university (salsa didn't even exist
then), google code, github and lately I'm slowly moving everything to codeberg.

I admit this is some valid reason. Looking at

udd=> SELECT DISTINCT source, maintainer, uploaders, vcs_browser FROM sources WHERE release = 'sid' and (maintainer ilike '%Tomaselli%' or uploaders ilike '%Tomaselli%') order by source;
source | maintainer | uploaders | vcs_browser
---------------------+------------------------------------------------+-----------+--------------------------------------------
album | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/album
album-data | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/album-data
explosive-c4 | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://codeberg.org/ltworf/explosive-c4
fortunes-it | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | |
kasts | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/kasts
localslackirc | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://github.com/ltworf/localslackirc
parolottero | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> | | https://github.com/ltworf/parolottero
python-netsnmpagent | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | |
python-xtermcolor | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> | |
relational | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> | |
trabucco | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> | |
typedload | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://github.com/ltworf/typedload
vasttrafik-cli | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <ltworf@debian.org> | | https://codeberg.org/ltworf/vasttrafik-cli
weborf | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> | |
xinetd | Salvo 'LtWorf' Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> | | https://salsa.debian.org/debian/xinetd
(15 rows)

I seee you maintain 4 packages on Salsa (great!), 5 packages for the
said reasons somewhere else and 6 packages do not contain any vcs_url.
Do you have a plan to lower the entry barrier for the latter 6?

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Hi Andreas,

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 06:57:33AM +0100, Andreas Tille wrote:

Hi Robert,

Am Thu, Mar 28, 2024 at 07:30:51AM -0400 schrieb Roberto C. S�nchez:

...
In any event, rather than infer what you might believe, I thought it
more respectful and helpful to ask you give some insight into how you shaped your view so that those who consider voting for you might
understand how you would like to reshape the Debian project.

Since you are repeatedly asking for measures I might like to add that
I'm very keen on giving *everybody* a fair chance to contribute.

I am not opposed to answering your question concerning Salsa and its
role in providing opportunities to contribute to Debian, but as they
say, "we're not here to talk about me, we're here to talk about you."

First, let's be very clear about something, I have repeatedly asked for
metrics concerning your position on diversity based on the fact that in
your platform you cite "a notable over representation of male
contributors originating from countries typically considered
industrialized" as something that needs to be addressed. I have
rephrased my question and offered several different possible ways of
framing a response that would be satisfactory.

Yet, for some reason you seem unwilling to discuss this particular topic
and you now feel the need to change the subject. I do not understand the purpose of making something a part of your platform and then refusing to discuss it. If I were to let you divert the course of the conversation
now, then I would be falling short in my duty as a project member with a responsibility to inform himself concerning those who seek to lead the
project. So, I refuse to allow the change of course in this
conversation. I believe very strongly in leadership accountability and
that accountability begins with transparency on the part of leaders and
those who would seek positions of leadership.

I have only asked my question repeatedly because it is not being
answered. Let me ask you, please, to be transparent.

So, I will repeat my question: what are your quantitative diversity
goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and
metrics?

Now, since I asked first, what about if you answer my question, and then
I'll see about answering yours?

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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Salvo Tomaselli <tiposchi@tiscali.it> writes:

I am also the original author of packages, and since I am told that
salsa is only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be
there, for me it is easier to keep packaging and development on a single repository. Which of course can't be salsa.

The approach I take for this is that I maintain both the upstream and the Debian packaging in a separate repository, but each time I upload the
package to Debian, I push both to Salsa as well. (Since my packaging
branch is based on the upstream branch, pushing both ensures anyone else
who needs to pick up the packaging has all of the history and doesn't take
more resources.) It's only one more step at the end of an upload and
fairly easy to remember, and that means that I can take MRs for the
packaging from Salsa. One of the nice advantages of Git is that it's
almost as easy to push the code multiple places as it is to push it one
place.

The hard part, I admit, is watching both Salsa and my regular issue
tracker for issues and merge requests, and that's a little annoying, but
it feels worth it to make it easier for people to submit MRs for my
packages in a standard environment.

Getting my notifications set up properly in Salsa so that I don't miss
things that go there is still a bit of a work in progress.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Roberto C. Sánchez <roberto@debian.org> writes:

Without a clear statement of the goal, desired, or preferred diversity
mix it is not possible to have a discussion about whether any particular proposed policy or program is likely to be beneficial or detrimental.

This statement is obviously false. One can have directional goals without having any strong opinions about what would be a good end state. Debian
is currently overwhelmingly male, and we reasons to believe the membership
is aging due to failing to attract younger contributors. One can believe
this poses a sustainability risk by discouraging half the population (from
one direction) and those with fresh conceptions of what a distribution can
be and the longest potential future as contributors (from the other
direction) from joining the project, without having any particular target percentages in mind and without supporting any interventions for which
target percentages would be relevant.

One can of course also *not* believe this poses a risk (by, for example, believing those demographics don't discourage anyone), and thus disagree
with a candidate that makes that part of their platform. But that
disagreement is not about specific target numbers.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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Hi Sven,

On Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 03:57:57PM +0100, Sven Mueller wrote:

Hi Roberto.
Most of the reason you are asking here so persistently is that Andreas
chose to say "over representation of white males" instead of "under
representation of some other group" (be it females, POC, ...).

This is not it at all. You misunderstand me.

If Andreas had chosen to say "${group} is under represented" then I
would have asked exactly the same question in exactly the same way.

In fact, Sruthi's platform states, "... more gender diverse people will
feel comfortable joining our community". This is the exact part of her
platform that I quoted in my initial mail, in part because it fairly
strongly implies under representation of gender diverse people.

The reason for asking the question in the first place is because the
statements made by the candidates demand some level of quantification.
What, precisely, is the problem with asking for a quantitative
description of a quantifiable problem?

The reason for asking so persistently is because the question still is
not being answered.

I question the (at this point seemingly intentional) lack of
transparency.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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On Thursday, March 28, 2024 6:53:19 PM MST Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

So, I repeat my question to the candidates: what are your quantitative diversity goals and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those
goals and metrics?

I would just like to add my support to Roberto for asking this question. When I was reading over the platforms I had the same question he did, which is that I was uncertain as to exactly what the candidates meant with regards to diversity and what specific things they would do to address it (their descriptions were a bit amorphous to me). Nothing about my interest in understanding the candidates position about diversity should in any way be interpreted as antagonism towards their diversity goals. Rather, I would just like to understand how they see the problem and what things they would like to do to address it, including any metrics as to what they think would be attainable progress.

Personally, I am one of only two Debian Developers that I know of living in Arizona. So, from a local geographic diversity perspective, I would like to see a few more Debian Developers that I could meet up with face-to-face. In that regard, I am actively trying to recruit people I know to get involved in Debian. Those efforts can take a while to play out, but I would hope that over
the next 2-3 years I can recruit at least 1-2 people and mentor them through the process of becoming Debian Developers.

Separate from efforts to recruit Debian Developers in general, I am a self- employed small business owner. Currently, I do not have any employees besides myself. However, if current plans materialize, I would hope to add a few employees over the next couple of years. When that happens, part of my employment contract would be that I would like them to dedicate up to 5 hours of paid company time per week to work on any part of Debian that interests them. The hope would be that they would eventually become Debian Developers and that they would continue their association with Debian even if they left my company’s employ.

This second part relates more to the discussion about recruiting more people to Debian in general (as opposed to any specific diversity goal) as well as the
discussion about paid contributions to Debian and trying to get companies to sponsor employee time working on Debian.

Returning to the Roberto’s question, as both candidates have made this a part
of their platform, I would hope that they could make a simple statement along the lines of, “These are the specific groups I see underrepresented in Debian
(perhaps even with some specific numbers about how underrepresented they are) and these are the specific things I would like to do to improve their representation (perhaps with some specific metrics as to what they think can be
accomplished during their term as the DPL).” I do understand that maybe their
statement looks more like, “These are the specific groups I see underrepresented. I don’t have any idea of how to fix that, but I think it is
important and as the DPL I would be open to any ideas from members of the project and would be committed to investing time and appropriate resources to implementing any good ideas that surface from those suggestions.”

I don’t think the DPL has to have all the answers going it. But I would hope
that Roberto’s excellent question and his consistency in noting that it hasn’t
yet been answered, would be helpful in directing the entire conversation towards concrete things we can implement to improve the situation.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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Hi Louis-Philippe,

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 02:41:44PM -0400 schrieb Louis-Philippe Véronneau:

We're getting a little sidetracked here, but that's not the case:

While its sidetracked from the original question I'm happy that this
came up here and I learned two good arguments (from Russ and yours) for
using Salsa.

Kind regards
Andreas.

"4. What can be hosted on salsa?

The answer is simple: As long as it is opensource and/or can be included in Debian, it is fine to use salsa. If in doubt, ask. " [1]

[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Salsa/FAQ#What_can_be_hosted_on_salsa

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Louis-Philippe Véronneau
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ pollo@debian.org / veronneau.org
⠈⠳⣄

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Hi Soren,

Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 01:00:36PM -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:

Personally, I am one of only two Debian Developers that I know of living in Arizona. So, from a local geographic diversity perspective, I would like to see a few more Debian Developers that I could meet up with face-to-face. In that regard, I am actively trying to recruit people I know to get involved in Debian. Those efforts can take a while to play out, but I would hope that over
the next 2-3 years I can recruit at least 1-2 people and mentor them through the process of becoming Debian Developers.

If the question is that specific I can give some clear answer: I'd
support forming a local group by taking over travel expenses for some in
person meeting. I do not think that a DPL platform (which in my case
was considered lengthy by some people) has room for listing those kind
of specific details.

Separate from efforts to recruit Debian Developers in general, I am a self- employed small business owner. Currently, I do not have any employees besides
myself. However, if current plans materialize, I would hope to add a few employees over the next couple of years. When that happens, part of my employment contract would be that I would like them to dedicate up to 5 hours of paid company time per week to work on any part of Debian that interests them. The hope would be that they would eventually become Debian Developers and that they would continue their association with Debian even if they left my company’s employ.

Very cool plan. I love to read it and wish you good luck in it.

This second part relates more to the discussion about recruiting more people to Debian in general (as opposed to any specific diversity goal) as well as the
discussion about paid contributions to Debian and trying to get companies to sponsor employee time working on Debian.

Interestingly, this issue may be more relevant than you assume. At
DebConf15, Margerita Manterola shed light on pertinent statistics,
revealing that the representation of women in Free Software lags behind
that of the broader IT industry. Within Debian specifically, this gender
gap is even more pronounced compared to the already underrepresented
status within the Free Software community at large. While I don't know
current figures, the prospect of recruiting individuals with a
predisposition towards inclusivity from the wider IT sector could
potentially bolster the presence of non-male developers within Debian.

Moreover as you said yourself your plan sounds pretty effective to work
on the discrimination of people in Arizona.

Returning to the Roberto’s question, as both candidates have made this a part
of their platform, I would hope that they could make a simple statement along the lines of, “These are the specific groups I see underrepresented in Debian
(perhaps even with some specific numbers about how underrepresented they are) and these are the specific things I would like to do to improve their representation (perhaps with some specific metrics as to what they think can be
accomplished during their term as the DPL).”

I can not give any metrics and I see no reason in spending my time on
exact numbers. IMHO the paragraph "Diversity" of my platform is out of question.

I do understand that maybe their
statement looks more like, “These are the specific groups I see underrepresented. I don’t have any idea of how to fix that,

Please read my platform again which contains phrases like "As a
potential solution, we might ..."

but I think it is
important and as the DPL I would be open to any ideas from members of the project and would be committed to investing time and appropriate resources to implementing any good ideas that surface from those suggestions.”

You surely have read my sentence "I am committed to facilitating
discussions with knowledgeable experts, to actively seek solutions to
these challenges." at the very end was misinterpreted by you as refering
to the previous paragraph but I consider this a general statement also regarding to diversity problems.

IMHO my platform contains the things you are asking for.

I don’t think the DPL has to have all the answers going it.

Definitely and I do not pretend to have answers for all questions.

But I would hope
that Roberto’s excellent question and his consistency in noting that it hasn’t
yet been answered, would be helpful in directing the entire conversation towards concrete things we can implement to improve the situation.

I promptly gave the answer: "I will not make false promises and give any metrics I intend to reach as DPL."[1]

Kind regards
Andreas.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2024/03/msg00053.html

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Copy: andreas@an3as.eu (Andreas Tille)

On Friday, March 29, 2024 1:56:46 PM MST Andreas Tille wrote:

Interestingly, this issue may be more relevant than you assume. At
DebConf15, Margerita Manterola shed light on pertinent statistics,
revealing that the representation of women in Free Software lags behind
that of the broader IT industry. Within Debian specifically, this gender
gap is even more pronounced compared to the already underrepresented
status within the Free Software community at large. While I don't know current figures, the prospect of recruiting individuals with a
predisposition towards inclusivity from the wider IT sector could
potentially bolster the presence of non-male developers within Debian.

Thank you. That is the type of specifics I was hoping to get at. I think that Debian working towards having an equal representation of women as compared to the Free Software community at large sounds like an attainable goal and one towards which we definitely ought to be striving.

Does anyone have a link to the information Margerita shared or information
from other sources about the number of women contributing to Debian compared
to Free Software in general? Having specific numbers is a helpful first step in
addressing the problem.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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Am Fri, Mar 29, 2024 at 02:10:07PM -0700 schrieb Soren Stoutner:

Does anyone have a link to the information Margerita shared or information from other sources about the number of women contributing to Debian compared to Free Software in general? Having specific numbers is a helpful first step in
addressing the problem.

I was seeking for the video in preparation of my platform but the
DebConf15 website was non-functional at the time when I was searching
and I was unable to guess from the list of DebConf videos[1] which might
be the right one. I also asked Margarita in person and she did not
remembered where she had found that numbers at that time.

Kind regards
Andreas.

[1] http://meetings-archive.debian.net/pub/debian-meetings/2015/debconf15

--
https://fam-tille.de

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On Fri, 29 Mar 2024 11:28:33 -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:

The reason for asking the question in the first place is because the statements made by the candidates demand some level of quantification.
What, precisely, is the problem with asking for a quantitative
description of a quantifiable problem?

Sorry to interrupt and jump on a meta level, but it's not "the
statements" which demand quantitative descriptions, it is you who
does this.

I'm not saying this is inappropiate or wrong or whatever per se, but
it's not nature-given, god-given or something, it's _your_ opinion
that a quantifiable approach to these questions would be useful and
_your_ decison to ask those questions.

Apparently, even if not explicitly spellt out, others disagree.
Also fine, also legitimate. And …

The reason for asking so persistently is because the question still is
not being answered.

… probably the reason why you don't get any answers on those
questions.


Cheers,
gregor

--
.''`. https://info.comodo.priv.at -- Debian Developer https://www.debian.org
: :' : OpenPGP fingerprint D1E1 316E 93A7 60A8 104D 85FA BB3A 6801 8649 AA06
`. `' Member VIBE!AT & SPI Inc. -- Supporter Free Software Foundation Europe
`-

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On 17183 March 1977, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

I am also the original author of packages, and since I am told that
salsa is
only for debian and upstream projects are not supposed to be there,
for me it
is easier to keep packaging and development on a single repository.
Which of
course can't be salsa.

Whoever tells you that is *WRONG*

You can, happily, host upstream projects on salsa too. Please do. The
more, the better.

The requirement is open source, so don't host things that wouldn't be
able to get added to Debian...

--
bye, Joerg

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On Sat, Apr 06, 2024 at 12:14:01AM +0530, Sruthi Chandran wrote:

On 28/03/24 05:56, Roberto C. S�nchez wrote:

Greetings candidates,

QUESTION TO THE CANDIDATES: what are your quantitative diversity goals
and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and metrics?

Sorry, I do not wish to put a quantitative value to solve a social issue.

...

Again, these are merely examples. I am interested in how you define
diversity and what metrics and goals you derive from that definition.

I believe there is no point in talking in % when more than 95% of people
are from one gender.

It seems counterintuitive that immediately after saying that you "do not
wish to put a quantitative value to solve a social issue" you decided to
put a quantitative value on a social issue as a way of saying "there is
no point in talking in %".

I suppose that once we reach a point as a project where *less* than 95%
of people are from one gender then perhaps you will see a point to
talking about this issue in quantitative terms and be willing to
discuss.

Regards,

-Roberto

--
Roberto C. S�nchez

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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 28/03/24 05:56, Roberto C. Sánchez
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ZgS5HhyTVxaXUEa6@connexer.com">
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">Greetings candidates,

QUESTION TO THE CANDIDATES: what are your quantitative diversity goals
and metrics, and what are the rationales behind those goals and metrics?</pre>
</blockquote>
Sorry, I do not wish to put a quantitative value to solve a social
issue.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ZgS5HhyTVxaXUEa6@connexer.com">
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">

Some context:

Both platforms cite imbalances in the areas of gender and geography as
concerns contributing to each candidate's desire to serve as DPL.

Andreas: "Currently, there is a notable over representation of male contributors originating from countries typically considered
industrialized."

Sruthi: "... more gender diverse people will feel comfortable joining
our community. Geographic/ethnic diversity are also important areas
which need attention."

(I should note that Sruthi's platform dedicated considerably more space
to the issue of diversity, but the particular statement I chose to quote
seemed representative.)

</pre>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ZgS5HhyTVxaXUEa6@connexer.com">
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">...

- Debian should represent the gender diversity of the whole world.

The world population is split approximately 50/50 male and female (with
a very slight bias towards more males) [1], with "transgender people and
other gender minorities, who comprise an estimated 0.3–0.5% (25 million)
of the global population" [2]. Using the above figure of 1004 DDs, a
balanced Debian population could be 500 male DDs, 499 female DDs, and 5
DDs who identify as transgender or another gender minority. Based on
this composition, it seems likely that Debian has adequate
representation of transgender and gender minority DDs, so focusing
efforts specifically on outreach to women would provide the greatest
benefit towards achieving a balanced representation.

Again, these are merely examples. I am interested in how you define
diversity and what metrics and goals you derive from that definition.</pre>
</blockquote>
I believe there is no point in talking in % when more than 95% of
people are from one gender.<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:ZgS5HhyTVxaXUEa6@connexer.com">
<pre wrap="" class="moz-quote-pre">

Regards,

-Roberto

[0] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations)">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations)</a>
[1] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sex_ratio</a>
[2] <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220131080803/https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions/whoeurope-brief-transgender-health-in-the-context-of-icd-11">https://web.archive.
org/web/20220131080803/https://www.euro.who.int/en/health-topics/health-determinants/gender/gender-definitions/whoeurope-brief-transgender-health-in-the-context-of-icd-11</a>

</pre>
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