Hi,

As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian
cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian,
but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to
host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this
idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?

Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that
the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they
would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of
things?

For some packages of mine, the current shared runners are too slow to
even run time-based tests of openvswitch for example... What about the
Salsa CI? Couldn't we pay some cloud providers to have faster shared
runners? It wouldn't be hard to hook them.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

P.S: To other DDs reading: feel free to voice your opinion too.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi Thomas,

Am Wed, Mar 27, 2024 at 12:24:30AM +0100 schrieb Thomas Goirand:

As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?

While I admit that I'm not well informed about the status of the acount currently I'm perfectly open to interesting suggestsions. In general I
think donators want to see their money spent for the progress of Debian
and not for filling up some bank account.

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?

While I personally have no use case for this I'm perfectly open for
spending money on this and love to discuss this either on debian-project
or debian-private (if private discussion seems to be appropriate).
However, I see an important requirement to consider this money well
spent: We need a team who cares for the maintenance of this cloud. I do
not think that we can simply add to the workload of DSA. And I want it
to be a real team and not a 1-person team.

Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of things?

I'd happily spent money on infrastructure we really need which includes
buildd and reproducible builds. I'm also fine with stregthening Debci
and Salsa CI if needed. But also here the question is: Just permitting
the usage of money is one thing. We also need people to do the actual
grunt work of buying, installing and maintaining the hardware. If this
is granted I'm perfectly fine with it.

For some packages of mine, the current shared runners are too slow to even run time-based tests of openvswitch for example... What about the Salsa CI?

As I mentioned above I'm happy to make Salsa CI more performant.

Couldn't we pay some cloud providers to have faster shared runners? It wouldn't be hard to hook them.

Paying some cloud providers to host shared runners for us might be one
answer to my requirement that there are actual people who care and not
only money thrown at some hardware. It needs to be well thought /
discussed what services can be delegated to some cloud providers and
what needs to be Debian hosted. For Salsa CI I do not see any
constraints since its just building publicly accessible code.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi,

Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> wrote on 27/03/2024 at 00:24:30+0100:

Hi,

As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account
for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian
cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian,
but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where
to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this
idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?

Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending
a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host,
and that would require a load of maintenance and time.

If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to
occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable
discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA.

Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that
the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they
would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of
things?

Same, with slightly less concern regarding hardware volume and
maintenance.

For some packages of mine, the current shared runners are too slow to
even run time-based tests of openvswitch for example... What about the
Salsa CI? Couldn't we pay some cloud providers to have faster shared
runners? It wouldn't be hard to hook them.

--
PEB

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi!

On 2024/03/27 12:25, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian
cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian,
but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where
to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this
idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?

Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending
a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host,
and that would require a load of maintenance and time.

If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to
occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable
discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA.

I'm trying not to respond to too many mails here because I don't want to
take away too much attention from the candidates, but I also don't think
we have a problem of money heaping up anymore. Across the project, our financial needs are mostly met, and it helps having some reserve cash
for a rainy day.

Also on the DSA front, they have just filed a request two weeks ago for upgrades at UBC in the range of $110-$160k, so it's not like we're
spending nothing on hardware either! Also, every single hardware request
over the last 4 years (whether from DSA or from a DD) has been approved.
I hope that's something that our new DPL will continue doing so for
every reasonable request going forward as well!

-Jonathan

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/27/24 08:51, Andreas Tille wrote:

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian cloud, >> for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian, but it never >> went through, because I haven't spent time to find where to host it and so >> on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd >> be useful for Debian?

While I personally have no use case for this I'm perfectly open for
spending money on this and love to discuss this either on debian-project
or debian-private (if private discussion seems to be appropriate).
However, I see an important requirement to consider this money well
spent: We need a team who cares for the maintenance of this cloud. I do
not think that we can simply add to the workload of DSA. And I want it
to be a real team and not a 1-person team.

Quickly, because I do not want to dive too much in the topic.

Adding workload to DSA isn't the plan. I also have other persons that
raised their hands as volunteers. Let's discuss this after the vote ! :)

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 3/27/24 11:25, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

Hi,

Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> wrote on 27/03/2024 at 00:24:30+0100:

Hi,

As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI account
for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?

Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new Debian
cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it for Debian,
but it never went through, because I haven't spent time to find where
to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the idea. Do you like this
idea? Do you think it'd be useful for Debian?

Please, let's take some time to think about the implications of spending
a shitload of money to buy hardware that we wouldn't know where to host,
and that would require a load of maintenance and time.

FYI, if I didn't go forward with the project, that we've been discussing
with Jonathan over at least 3 years, is because I have no idea where to
host it. I have clearly stated that having this hosted at *my* company
(ie: Infomaniak) is *not* what I want to do to avoid any type of
conflict of interest. I am staying firm with the idea that I shouldn't
do that. Though if anyone has a clue where we should do it, we can open
such a discussion (yeah, after the vote: my question was if Andrea was
happy with this type of project, not how and where we should to it).
Since I have failed to find where to host, maybe I should open the topic
with a wider audience, in the hope to have some suggestions.

So, let's not get further on this topic and let's reopen it soon.

If any discussion should arise on these matters, I'd rather them to
occur not as a platform for a DPL candidate but after a reasonable
discussion with the concerned parties, eg, DSA.

No. The DSA people have already stated multiple times that they do not
want to be integrated in such a project. Let's do this without them if
this is still the case. If you asked me, I'd say I would regret not to
do it with the DSA, but it's entirely their call, and it's also probably
good to try not to be overloaded with complicated clusters like OpenStack.

Also, I found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that
the reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they
would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind of
things?

Same, with slightly less concern regarding hardware volume and
maintenance.

Yeah, DSA and other teams (ports maintainers?) should be involved. From
a DD perspective, it's just very annoying to have to wait days, and
sometimes even weeks, to have a package built on all arch. IMO, we
should address this, in some way or another.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 27/03/24 04:54, Thomas Goirand
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5b303662-1c8e-4e9d-b6e1-4ca739006c42@debian.org">Hi,
<br>
<br>
As you know, there's a large amount of money sleeping in SPI
account for Debian. Do you have ideas on how to spend it?
<br>
</blockquote>
From Jonathan's mail, I think we do not have too much money unused
now.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5b303662-1c8e-4e9d-b6e1-4ca739006c42@debian.org">
<br>
Would you be ok spending 100k USD on buying hardware for a new
Debian cloud, for example? I've always volunteered to operate it
for Debian, but it never went through, because I haven't spent
time to find where to host it and so on, but highvoltage liked the
idea. Do you like this idea? Do you think it'd be useful for
Debian?
<br>
</blockquote>
As I mentioned in some previous questions, I would be interested to
hear about ideas to make good use of our money. But I would not be
taking decisions on spending "big" amount of money without much
discussion within the Debian community.  Based on some experience we
had in our Free Software Community of India, I have learned that
hosting services is a task that require good amount of effort and
time for maintenance. If we do not have a enough volunteers to
handle them, it will result in burnout and eventually the services
die. Let us take up this topic after the elections (if I become the
DPL) and evaluate the pros and cons before committing.
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:5b303662-1c8e-4e9d-b6e1-4ca739006c42@debian.org">Also, I
found very annoying that we don't have enough buildd, or that the
reproducible build project doesn't have as much hardware as they
would like. Would it be ok to spend another 100k USD for this kind
of things.</blockquote>
Generally speaking, spending on hardware in my opinion is a good
investment. Jonathan in his mail mentioned that some amount of money
was spent recently for hardwares by DSA. So let us revisit this
request later, discuss with DSA and decide.<br>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi,

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 13:57:55 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

every single hardware request over the last 4 years (whether from DSA
or from a DD) has been approved.

Mine wasn't, although I probably didn't follow the proper procedure. I
just wrote a private email to Jonathan. His response is below.

Jonathan's reference to DAM was an interesting slip; I believe he meant
DSA.

I answered Jonathan's question from November 5, 2021, an hour later. I
then sent a gentle reminder on February 3, 2022. Jonathan did not
respond to either.

After a public mention on this list [1] another seven weeks later, I
eventually received a friendly message from a member of the treasurer
team on April 5, 2022. The author "wonder[ed] if we can prepare an
action plan somehow." The message further stated that "I hope Debian
can reimburse you ASAP."

None of the responses included the "pre-appoval" necessary according to
step two in the documentation. [2]

The point is now moot. Thanks!

Kind regards
Felix

P.S. I do not subscribe to this mailing list.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-vote/2022/03/msg00212.html
[2] https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/DPL/Reimbursement

* * *

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Hi Felix

On 2021/11/03 16:45, Felix Lechner wrote:

For over a year, I contemplated writing this request. As part of my contributions to Debian I operate the website lintian.d.o. Untarring
and scanning the archive uses lots of resources. The service is
heavily disk-bound.

It would help to upgrade one of my machines to an NVMe SSD. The
machine also needs more memory (currently 24 GB). I would not normally
make the upgrades. Would the project please help out with the proposed purchase?

The details in the amount of approximately US$217 are below. Thanks!

Can you remind me where/how this is currently hosted? Didn't you sort
out the remaining issues with DAM and have it hosted there?

-Jonathan

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On 2024/04/10 16:08, Felix Lechner wrote:

On Wed, 27 Mar 2024 13:57:55 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:

every single hardware request over the last 4 years (whether from DSA
or from a DD) has been approved.

Mine wasn't, although I probably didn't follow the proper procedure. I
just wrote a private email to Jonathan. His response is below.

I'm not going to re-hash what I previously said, it's all on record from
the 2022 DPL election period:

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/bdc81fe2-4490-a839-27b4-e610de369757@debian.org

After which, you lost to NOTA and then rage quit Debian, and now, two
years later, you're still bitter that you didn't get an SSD that you
never bothered to file a request for. There comes a time where you need
to know that it's time to let it go.

-Jonathan

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On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 11:48:18AM +0200, Christian Kastner wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I overlooked this the first time, but

On 2024-03-29 16:03, Thomas Goirand wrote:

FYI, if I didn't go forward with the project, that we've been discussing with Jonathan over at least 3 years, is because I have no idea where to host it. I have clearly stated that having this hosted at *my* company
(ie: Infomaniak) is *not* what I want to do to avoid any type of
conflict of interest. I am staying firm with the idea that I shouldn't
do that.

I understand your position morally but from a practical POV, speaking as someone who's currently hosting servers in his living room, any hosting option would be an improvement to me and one with by a Debian Project
Member even more so.

And strictly speaking (1) I don't see a conflict of interest and (2)
even if there were one, these can be disclosed and dealt with. Hosting
isn't that opaque.

+1

--
Roberto C. Sánchez

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