I am interested in knowing about what the current candidates think about accounting bits in Debian and how they think about spending the money.

As I have read and from time to time observed, the finances in the project
do not have a lot of transparency and there are updates posted semi-occasionally
on -private and sometimes in DPL talks. Jonathan also wrote about it in one of their
previous campaigns. Itd also be good to know if there's a plan on where the budget
shall be best spent.

I would like to know if the candidates for this term have any plans about it or any thoughts
in general.

Both of your platforms have only a (very) vague idea about it and I'd like to know more
specifics about it.

PS: I urge _only_ the candidates to reply to this mail 😀

Best,
Nilesh

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Hi Nilesh,

Am Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 09:23:12AM +0530 schrieb Nilesh Patra:

I am interested in knowing about what the current candidates think about accounting bits in Debian and how they think about spending the money.

I admit my knowledge about how Debian money is spent is currently low
and incomplete. Here is a list of things I know / have heard about:

1. DebConf (and MiniDebConfs)
In my perception the money usage for DebConf is transparet enough
I have no idea about MiniDebConfs.

2. Smaller in person meetings (Bug squashing parties, team sprints)
Sprint organisers have to estimate their budget and need confirmation.
Confirmed budget is payed.
I have no idea whether those data are published somewhere.

3. Infrasturture hardware
I was always happy to see that it worked from my mere developer
point of view and did not read the reports about this but I
know there are some reports.

4. Hardware for developers
I once profited from a Debian sponsored laptop in exchange for some
review[1]. I know that other DDs also got hardware which is for
different reasons interesing to make sure Debian runs properly.
I have no idea whether there is some list about this (in terms of
transparent usage of the money)

5. There is probably way more missing in this list.

As I have read and from time to time observed, the finances in the project
do not have a lot of transparency and there are updates posted semi-occasionally
on -private and sometimes in DPL talks. Jonathan also wrote about it in one of their
previous campaigns.

I would love to be transparent about money. Currently I have no idea
how time consuming this process compared to DPL tasks in general might
be. I'd love to get help here which is also a way to increase
transparency if more eyes are looking onto this topic.

Itd also be good to know if there's a plan on where the budget
shall be best spent.

I have no idea how to measure "best" usage objectively. I strongly
believe that in person meetings are very important so I consider the
money for item 1. and 2. of my list above spent well and would encourage
people to organise those events which should be supported by Debian
money.

Its probably without question that we need good infrastructure hardware.
If bottlenecks might be spotted which can be fixed quickly with existing
money I'm all for it.

I would like to know if the candidates for this term have any plans about it or any thoughts
in general.

In general I think that people donating money to Debian expect their
money to be spent for the progress of Debian (rather than filling up
our bank account[2]).

I'm also open to exploring new ways to allocate funds. I'm hopeful that
we can derive some positive insights from the Debian Developer's Survey
on the Usage of Money in Debian[3]. Personally, I'm open to discussing
whether to compensate contributors for important tasks that either
nobody wants to do or lacks people with sufficient time capacity to
undertake those tasks. I recall the various pros and cons raised during
past discussions on this matter, but if people believe it's time to
initiate a fresh discussion, I'm very receptive to that.

BTW, I don't believe that only the DPL can initiate such a discussion.
But for sure I'm very open for suggestions and will support any
initiative to make Debian better.

As a very personal note what I think about money: In my eyes money has
a great power to divide people. Discussion about it is usually heated
and it is hard to find a good consensus due to very different
perspectives onto that matter specifically since there is hardly a
technical proof what is right and what is wrong. This makes a great
difference to other decisions we have to draw inside Debian.

Both of your platforms have only a (very) vague idea about it and I'd like to know more
specifics about it.

If you want to know more details please be more specific in your
question.

PS: I urge _only_ the candidates to reply to this mail 😀

I'm personally interested into specific proposal how people consider
money well spent and might answer these in different treads (since
Nilesh wants only replies from candidates).

Best,
Nilesh

Kind regards
Andreas.

[1] https://fam-tille.de/debian/frame.work.html
[2] https://www.theregister.com/2020/09/10/debian_project_address/
[3] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/04/msg00001.html

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Quoting Andreas Tille:

Am Fri, Mar 22, 2024 at 09:23:12AM +0530 schrieb Nilesh Patra:

I am interested in knowing about what the current candidates think about accounting bits in Debian and how they think about spending the money.

I admit my knowledge about how Debian money is spent is currently low
and incomplete.

Same here :D

Here is a list of things I know / have heard about:

1. DebConf (and MiniDebConfs)
In my perception the money usage for DebConf is transparet enough
I have no idea about MiniDebConfs.

2. Smaller in person meetings (Bug squashing parties, team sprints)
Sprint organisers have to estimate their budget and need confirmation.
Confirmed budget is payed.
I have no idea whether those data are published somewhere.

3. Infrasturture hardware
I was always happy to see that it worked from my mere developer
point of view and did not read the reports about this but I
know there are some reports.

4. Hardware for developers
I once profited from a Debian sponsored laptop in exchange for some
review[1]. I know that other DDs also got hardware which is for
different reasons interesing to make sure Debian runs properly.
I have no idea whether there is some list about this (in terms of
transparent usage of the money)

5. There is probably way more missing in this list.

As I have read and from time to time observed, the finances in the project do not have a lot of transparency and there are updates posted semi-occasionally
on -private and sometimes in DPL talks. Jonathan also wrote about it in one of their
previous campaigns.

I would love to be transparent about money. Currently I have no idea
how time consuming this process compared to DPL tasks in general might
be. I'd love to get help here which is also a way to increase
transparency if more eyes are looking onto this topic.

Itd also be good to know if there's a plan on where the budget
shall be best spent.

I have no idea how to measure "best" usage objectively. I strongly
believe that in person meetings are very important so I consider the
money for item 1. and 2. of my list above spent well and would encourage
people to organise those events which should be supported by Debian
money.

Its probably without question that we need good infrastructure hardware.
If bottlenecks might be spotted which can be fixed quickly with existing
money I'm all for it.

I would like to know if the candidates for this term have any plans about it or any thoughts
in general.

In general I think that people donating money to Debian expect their
money to be spent for the progress of Debian (rather than filling up
our bank account[2]).

I'm also open to exploring new ways to allocate funds. I'm hopeful that
we can derive some positive insights from the Debian Developer's Survey
on the Usage of Money in Debian[3]. Personally, I'm open to discussing
whether to compensate contributors for important tasks that either
nobody wants to do or lacks people with sufficient time capacity to
undertake those tasks. I recall the various pros and cons raised during
past discussions on this matter, but if people believe it's time to
initiate a fresh discussion, I'm very receptive to that.

BTW, I don't believe that only the DPL can initiate such a discussion.
But for sure I'm very open for suggestions and will support any
initiative to make Debian better.

In principle yes, but it is finally upto DPL to approve most of the things about payments.

As a very personal note what I think about money: In my eyes money has
a great power to divide people. Discussion about it is usually heated
and it is hard to find a good consensus due to very different
perspectives onto that matter specifically since there is hardly a
technical proof what is right and what is wrong. This makes a great
difference to other decisions we have to draw inside Debian.

Both of your platforms have only a (very) vague idea about it and I'd like to know more
specifics about it.

If you want to know more details please be more specific in your
question.

No, your answer is really good and answers most of what I wanted to know. Since we are
yet to find out more details about accounting, I suppose you'd be able to grok the same in more details if you are elected. I'd bring up this topic again if I feel
there's a need for more transparency and detailing -- maybe after a few months or so.

PS: I urge _only_ the candidates to reply to this mail 😀

I'm personally interested into specific proposal how people consider
money well spent and might answer these in different treads (since
Nilesh wants only replies from candidates).

Precisely for this reason - to prevent this thread from becoming
a (potentially) mega thread :)

Best,
Nilesh

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Hi Sruthi

On 2024/03/22 19:51, Sruthi Chandran wrote:

I agree on your point of lack of transparency about the finances. But
from what I understood from highvoltage's  platform last year, the
problem is more to do with the current delayed, manual and tedious
accounting process.

The accounting processes have definitely been one of the stumbling
blocks. We now have a new reimbursement system that's live (and even in
use by some!) at https://reimbursements.debian.net

Once we have everything going through there, it will be much easier to
get all kinds of reporting and insights into our spending (where, right
now, other than me polling the TOs and posting a summary, everything
else has been close to impossible).

It's still under development, but it's shaping up nicely, so I think in
the future, the financial administration will be far less of a burden to
the DPL than it has been for years already.

-Jonathan

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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 25/03/24 17:04, Jonathan Carter
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:cf2e7fc4-5a7a-4642-9c08-2b1f845e0494@debian.org">Hi
Sruthi
<br>
<br>
On 2024/03/22 19:51, Sruthi Chandran wrote:
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">I agree on your point of lack of
transparency about the finances. But from what I understood from
highvoltage's  platform last year, the problem is more to do
with the current delayed, manual and tedious accounting process.
<br>
</blockquote>
The accounting processes have definitely been one of the stumbling
blocks. We now have a new reimbursement system that's live (and
even in use by some!) at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://reimbursements.debian.net">https://reimbursements.debian.net</a>
<br>
<br>
Once we have everything going through there, it will be much
easier to get all kinds of reporting and insights into our
spending (where, right now, other than me polling the TOs and
posting a summary, everything else has been close to impossible).
<br>
<br>
It's still under development, but it's shaping up nicely, so I
think in the future, the financial administration will be far less
of a burden to the DPL than it has been for years already.
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
Thanks Jonathan, that is really good to know.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:cf2e7fc4-5a7a-4642-9c08-2b1f845e0494@debian.org">-Jonathan
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</body>
</html>

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