A question to DPL candidates

It seems (to me?) that more and more areas of our lives become political and controversies on such topics more aggressive. Or people stop talking with each other.

How would you as a DPL try to lead a community that focuses on producing a great distribution without getting divided on controversial topics?

Thomas Koch

(I hope it's not violating rules to pre-post a question before the campaign period?)

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"Thomas" == Thomas Koch <thomas@koch.ro> writes:

Thomas> A question to DPL candidates

Generally we mwait until the campaining period for questions to the
candidates.
I mean it's a list, you can post to it whenever, but those conventions
do help us.

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Hi Thomas,

Am Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 05:36:57PM +0200 schrieb Thomas Koch:

A question to DPL candidates

It seems (to me?) that more and more areas of our lives become political and controversies on such topics more aggressive. Or people stop talking with each other.

I share this observation.

How would you as a DPL try to lead a community that focuses on producing a great distribution without getting divided on controversial topics?

I'm not really sure in how far you consider the first statement relevant
to the question. If your focus is on political controverses I have a
clear statement: Make sure off-topic messages will be reduced to a
bare minimum on Debian channels (maximum is one message to invite people
to a non-Debian channel and mark this invitation [OT]).

If the discussion about technical topics that are relevant for Debian
might become controversal this is no problem as long as participants of
the discussion are following our Code of Conduct[1]. This is something
we once agreed upon and I consider it very important.

(I hope it's not violating rules to pre-post a question before the campaign period?)

Just answering after the campaign period started.

Kind regards
Andreas.

[1] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

--
http://fam-tille.de

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Hi Gerardo,

Am Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 09:38:26AM +0100 schrieb Gerardo Ballabio:

Andreas Tille wrote:

How would you as a DPL try to lead a community that focuses on producing a great distribution without getting divided on controversial topics?

I'm not really sure in how far you consider the first statement relevant
to the question. If your focus is on political controverses I have a
clear statement: Make sure off-topic messages will be reduced to a
bare minimum on Debian channels (maximum is one message to invite people
to a non-Debian channel and mark this invitation [OT]).

Limiting off-topic posts is obviously agreeable, but there's more than
just that.

Another facet of the question is: do you think that Debian should
support and/or take action on "good causes" that aren't part of its
stated mission (and that some people, including some DDs, might
disagree on being "good")?

For example (by no means an exhaustive list, feel free to add):
- should Debian aim to reduce its carbon footprint and/or optimize
software for that goal?

If this question is whether we should target for less power consumption
I consider this topic as perfectly non-controversal and part of our
mission statement. I can't imagine any user wants to spent more money
on energy to run a Debian system or might be happy about seeking for the
next power plug to recharge the laptop battery. Probably also people
who do not believe in the need to reduce the carbon footprint will be interested in less energy consumption and I consider this as part of our mission statement.

- should Debian support and/or actively drive initiatives to increase diversity in Debian Developers, or in the software industry in
general, or in the world at large?

I hope my platform was clear enough that I'm in favour of increasing the diversity in Debian. This is not off-topic inside Debian. Regarding
the software industry in general or the world at large I think Debian is
not the right association to target these goals. Its a great thing if
Debian contributors are working on this and I will applause this on a
personal level. But this is nothing I consider my task as DPL nor do I
think we should discuss this topic on Debian channels. As I tried to
express: Pointing to some outside channel in some message marked OT to
inform people is OK.

- should Debian take any measures (boycott, suspend or expel
developers, refuse to consider as a host for Debconf...) against
countries that are perceived by some as "behaving bad" -- as examples
related to current events let me just mention Russia and Israel?

We are an international project and I do not think that any contributor
can be blamed about the country of origin. Please be more verbose if
my answer is not sufficient for your question.

Since you mentioned DebConf: The DebConf team has to care for the safety
of all attendees. I trust their experience in running a DebConf in
drawing the correct decision regarding this. I can warmly recommend to
join the DebConf team to get involved into the discussion about this.

- (this is an issue that once hit me personally) should Debian enforce
the use of a particular language with respect to gender issues?

I consider our Code of Conduct as sensibly and sufficiently worded. Our language should be kind and respectful. I do not consider these
attributes as "particular language".

Kind regards
Andreas.


[1] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

--
http://fam-tille.de

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Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> wrote on 19/03/2024 at 09:38:26+0100:

Andreas Tille wrote:

How would you as a DPL try to lead a community that focuses on producing a great distribution without getting divided on controversial topics?

I'm not really sure in how far you consider the first statement relevant
to the question. If your focus is on political controverses I have a
clear statement: Make sure off-topic messages will be reduced to a
bare minimum on Debian channels (maximum is one message to invite people
to a non-Debian channel and mark this invitation [OT]).

Limiting off-topic posts is obviously agreeable, but there's more than
just that.

Yes. First, what is off-topic? Who decides? How do we decide when
something deemed off-topic becomes actually on-topic?

Another facet of the question is: do you think that Debian should
support and/or take action on "good causes" that aren't part of its
stated mission (and that some people, including some DDs, might
disagree on being "good")?

Anything deemed as important by members of our community could be viewed
as in our missions, since I seem to remember that our users are our
priority.

Debian doesn't live in a bubble outside of the world.

For example (by no means an exhaustive list, feel free to add):
- should Debian aim to reduce its carbon footprint and/or optimize
software for that goal?

I don't see how it's up to the DPL to answer this question further than
for themselves.

I can understand that you want the candidate's opinion on this (after
all it's important for a lot of people to chose someone with whom one
shares values), but it's up to all of us to address the forementioned
point, and it seems worth reminding.

- should Debian support and/or actively drive initiatives to increase diversity in Debian Developers, or in the software industry in
general, or in the world at large?

To me it's the same as above. Also, we saw, painfully, that not caring
creates some void around the people being not careful at all. And this
voids costs us far more than not having them around.

- should Debian take any measures (boycott, suspend or expel
developers, refuse to consider as a host for Debconf...) against
countries that are perceived by some as "behaving bad" -- as examples
related to current events let me just mention Russia and Israel?

It also seems up to all of us via a GR to answer such a question.

- (this is an issue that once hit me personally) should Debian enforce
the use of a particular language with respect to gender issues?

For now, I think the CoC already answers this matter. If you want to
change it, then as upwards, it's once again up to us collectively to
change it.

Also, why on earth would you care whether people you've never met (and
probably never will meet) decide to transition and ask you to use a
different name/pronoun to address them?

In a whole, I think it's interesting to see people asking the DPL to
take position regarding what they see as problematic to them instead of
taking the matter in their hands and submit resolution proposals for
these points.

Some actually took the opportunity when they wanted to (eg, asking the
project to take a position regarding Stallman resuming activity at the
FSF), and got their answer (despite it being not what they expected from
it) from the members as a whole.

--
PEB

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Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> wrote on 21/03/2024 at 10:00:28+0100:

Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:

I can understand that you want the candidate's opinion on this (after
all it's important for a lot of people to chose someone with whom one
shares values)

Yes, that's why I asked. One candidate already answered and I hope the
other one will also share her opinions.

But it was also interesting to know your opinions, and if that isn't
deemed off-topic in the context of a DPL election, I'd like to hear
the opinions of other non-candidates too.

I personally think it can be relevant.

That being said, taking a step back, I can appreciate how a lot of
people replying could drown a bit -vote.

Also, why on earth would you care whether people you've never met (and
probably never will meet) decide to transition and ask you to use a
different name/pronoun to address them?

That is definitely off-topic. If you are interested in knowing my
answer to that or to any other questions, feel free to contact me in
private.

Well, feel free to drop a reply in my mailbox, then!

In a whole, I think it's interesting to see people asking the DPL to
take position regarding what they see as problematic to them instead of
taking the matter in their hands and submit resolution proposals for
these points.

I kind of see your point -- but this is the discussion period for the
DPL election, and this is the mailing list where the discussion is
supposed to take place, and I was following up to another question
asked to the candidates, so it seemed entirely appropriate to me to
address them.

And I believe that a GR would be the last resort, rather than the main
way to address problems. Besides, initiating a discussion on this list
would be the starting point for a GR process too.

If you think it was wrong of me to ask that question, please elaborate.

I don't think that it's wrong in essence, although I think our PoV on
the matter would not be aligned (which is fine with me).

But I do think that, whatever a DPL/Candidate says on the matter, it'll
only potentially influence the voters in their votes, but not the way
things are in the project.

I wouldn't want to change the current general situation in the project,
but if I were to, I'd probably bring the matter to the members as a whole.

--
PEB

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* Gerardo Ballabio <gerardo.ballabio@gmail.com> [2024-03-19 09:38:26 CET]:

Another facet of the question is: do you think that Debian should
support and/or take action on "good causes" that aren't part of its
stated mission (and that some people, including some DDs, might
disagree on being "good")?

Extending the DFSG towards interacting with actual people in the project (especially #5, #6), not just licenses, should actually be a non-brainer, but seemingly it isn't. So here we are again.

For example (by no means an exhaustive list, feel free to add):
- should Debian aim to reduce its carbon footprint and/or optimize
software for that goal?

Given that the climate change disproportional affects people in certain areas, I would draw a connection to DFSG#5 and #6.

- should Debian support and/or actively drive initiatives to increase diversity in Debian Developers, or in the software industry in
general, or in the world at large?

Diversity in the software we support within the project is a key factor. And diverse needs and approaches to things root in diverse background of people. Ignoring that there are systematic issues within the project playing into the underrepresentation of a demography in our community, this is tightly connected to DFSG#5 "No discrimination against persons or groups".

- should Debian take any measures (boycott, suspend or expel
developers, refuse to consider as a host for Debconf...) against
countries that are perceived by some as "behaving bad" -- as examples
related to current events let me just mention Russia and Israel?

I wonder why you left out Italy with its fascist Meloni. I might have an idea on the why, but that's a different topic. Helding inhabitants of countries responsible for their governance is off-limits. The reason why the debconf in israel was canceled was due to safety concerns in current affairs and by far not connected to the developers there, and I am very disturbed by your implication in that statement.

- (this is an issue that once hit me personally) should Debian enforce
the use of a particular language with respect to gender issues?

What you call "gender issues" is a downright discriminatory issue against trans people, denying the existence of intersex people, and claiming that chromosomes would be something you can see when you look at someone.

On that grounds, I have to thank you for your downright disrespectful statements in 2019. It allowed me to create a poetry slam text out of it, got nominated for local championship because of it, and had it printed in a trans focus anthology. So while your claims are scientific nonsense, I still have to thank you for the indirect elevation of me in that field.

Unfortunately you still are hung up on your discriminatory and downright disrespectful position that you brought up in 2019 already, haven't learned from the discussion, and still seem to find a way that the Code of Conduct wouldn't apply to you, nor the DFSG#5.

Cheers,
Rhonda
--
F�hlst du dich mutlos, fass endlich Mut, los |
F�hlst du dich hilflos, geh raus und hilf, los | Wir sind Helden
F�hlst du dich machtlos, geh raus und mach, los | 23.55: Alles auf Anfang F�hlst du dich haltlos, such Halt und lass los |

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Copy: rhonda@deb.at (Rhonda D'Vine)

On Friday, March 22, 2024 3:08:53 AM MST Rhonda D'Vine wrote:

Unfortunately you still are hung up on your discriminatory and downright disrespectful position that you brought up in 2019 already, haven't learned from the discussion, and still seem to find a way that the Code of Conduct wouldn't apply to you, nor the DFSG#5.

I feel very strongly that these types of discussions do not belong in Debian. There are many good causes in the world and much disagreement about what they are. For Debian to succeed, it needs to focus on producing a quality software distribution. Discussions about tangentially related controversial topics, no matter how good the cause may be, doesn’t result in any benefit to those causes
but does result in harm to Debian. The animosity in the previous email is representative of this (I have only quoted one of the paragraphs above because I do not find the tone of the message appropriate for a Debian mailing list).

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@debian.org
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* Soren Stoutner <soren@debian.org> [2024-03-22 16:59:46 CET]:

On Friday, March 22, 2024 3:08:53 AM MST Rhonda D'Vine wrote:

Unfortunately you still are hung up on your discriminatory and downright disrespectful position that you brought up in 2019 already, haven't learned from the discussion, and still seem to find a way that the Code of Conduct wouldn't apply to you, nor the DFSG#5.

I feel very strongly that these types of discussions do not belong in Debian.

Agreed. There shouldn't be a need to even discuss the basic human dignity and respect for the existence of trans or inter* people.

There are many good causes in the world and much disagreement about what they are. For Debian to succeed, it needs to focus on producing a quality software
distribution. Discussions about tangentially related controversial topics, no
matter how good the cause may be, doesn’t result in any benefit to those causes
but does result in harm to Debian.

We though need people to work on the distribution. And if we are activly driving people away by not standing up for basic human rights to exist and dignity there won't be any left besides those that don't care about decency in communication with each other.

The animosity in the previous email is representative of this (I have only quoted one of the paragraphs above because I do not find the tone of the message appropriate for a Debian mailing list).

You quoted the wrong mail. I "just" stood up for basic human decency. It is a privilege that it doesn't affect you personally, and you don't seem to care, but the project shouldn't ignore disrespectful points of view driven by ideology that is attributed a genocidial character by the Lemkin Institute for Genocide Prevention[1].

[1] https://www.lemkininstitute.com/statements-new-page/statement-on-the-genocidal-nature-of-the-gender-critical-movement%E2%80%99s-ideology-and-practice

The Debian project has a clear standing on human rights - not just within its requirements for Software Licences but also in practice in the way we interact, and actually has to defend and stand up for them when challenged. I would suggest you to read into the Paradox of Tolerance. If a tolerant and inclusive community like the Debian project isn't willing to stand up against intolerance, the tolerance will vanish.

So long,
Rhonda
--
Fühlst du dich mutlos, fass endlich Mut, los |
Fühlst du dich hilflos, geh raus und hilf, los | Wir sind Helden
Fühlst du dich machtlos, geh raus und mach, los | 23.55: Alles auf Anfang Fühlst du dich haltlos, such Halt und lass los |

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Copy: srud@disroot.org (Sruthi Chandran)

On Friday, March 22, 2024 12:26:58 PM MST Sruthi Chandran wrote:

But there are some topics like gender issues that are relevant to
Debian. Debian is not just an operating system. It is also a community,
one which declares its positive stand regarding diversity. If one does
not want to participate in such discussions, they are free to not
involve. But when participating, everyone should ensure that the communication is respectful to all and there is no CoC violation.

I completely agree that:

1) There are some aspects of gender and diversity that are appropriate to discuss within Debian. Namely, that everyone should be treated with respect
no matter who they are. However, the previous email I was responding to went far beyond that to discussing aspects of these topics that are tangential to Debian and its mission.

2) All discussion should be respectful. The original email I was responding
to was not respectful.

--
Soren Stoutner
soren@stoutner.com
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On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 09:38:26AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

<snip>

I would point out to the candidates that Gerardo is not a voting member of
the Debian project. I don't think we should allow our candidate discussions
to be hijacked by non-voters.

--
Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developer https://www.debian.org/ slangasek@ubuntu.com vorlon@debian.org

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On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 09:38:26AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:

Another facet of the question is: do you think that Debian should
support and/or take action on "good causes" that aren't part of its
stated mission (and that some people, including some DDs, might
disagree on being "good")?

For example (by no means an exhaustive list, feel free to add):
- should Debian aim to reduce its carbon footprint and/or optimize
software for that goal?
- should Debian support and/or actively drive initiatives to increase >diversity in Debian Developers, or in the software industry in
general, or in the world at large?
- should Debian take any measures (boycott, suspend or expel
developers, refuse to consider as a host for Debconf...) against
countries that are perceived by some as "behaving bad" -- as examples
related to current events let me just mention Russia and Israel?
- (this is an issue that once hit me personally) should Debian enforce
the use of a particular language with respect to gender issues?

Oh, this garbage again. Haven't you learnt yet?

The "thing that once hit you personally" was the thread at [1], where
you declared that your rights about word choice trump being respectful
of the people around you. You're continuing to frame this as
"politics". I, and many other people here, have made it abundantly
clear that this is not acceptable. You're (still) not a DD, but it
seems that you want to continue to try and push this disrespectful
world-view in the project. This is elementary stuff - it's point #1 in
the Debian Code of Conduct. [2]

As you've made it clear that you don't want to abide by the norms of
our community, I strongly suggest that you go and find a different
place where your views might fit better.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2019/12/msg00011.html
[2] https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

--
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com “Why do people find DNS so difficult? It’s just cache invalidation and
naming things.”
-– Jeff Waugh (https://twitter.com/jdub)

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Copy: phls@debian.org (Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana)

Maybe is it time to Debian has its own outreachy program?
To have DDs mentoring paid interns to learn how to package, how to
contribute for softwares/tools used by Debian, and so on.

What is the rate at which paid interns stick around when it becomes unpaid?

Is there any data about this?



--
Salvo Tomaselli

"Io non mi sento obbligato a credere che lo stesso Dio che ci ha dotato di senso, ragione ed intelletto intendesse che noi ne facessimo a meno."
-- Galileo Galilei

https://ltworf.codeberg.page/
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On 2024/03/23 18:48, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana wrote:

Maybe is it time to Debian has its own outreachy program?
To have DDs mentoring paid interns to learn how to package, how to
contribute for softwares/tools used by Debian, and so on.

In the last Debian Outreach Delegation, this is one of the challenges
that they're stepping up for:

https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/11/msg00004.html

-Jonathan

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On 2024-03-23 14:13, Salvo Tomaselli wrote:

Maybe is it time to Debian has its own outreachy program?
To have DDs mentoring paid interns to learn how to package, how to
contribute for softwares/tools used by Debian, and so on.

What is the rate at which paid interns stick around when it becomes unpaid?

Is there any data about this?

In my opinion, this brings us back to the eternal question of why people contribute to Free Software. From what I've gathered, the answer seems
to be very heterogeneous and different people have very different
reasons to contribution to FOSS.

Money (or lack thereof) certainly is one of them, but isn't the be-all
and end-all.

I don't have tons of experience with paid internships, but I did
participate as a GSoC mentor a few years ago and was somewhat
disappointed by the fact the student did not become a regular Debian contributor.

In my opinion, this wasn't primarily caused by the mentoree's finite
funding, but by a lack of social structures that could've helped them
keep an interest in Debian.

Even though I like the technical work I do in Debian, I probably
wouldn't be as active in the project if there wasn't a local DUG in my
city. I certainly wouldn't be part of Debian if I hadn't had the chance
to go DC15 in Heidelberg and meet tons of nice and inspiring people :P

If we want people to stick around, I think these kind of structures are
crucial and should be given as much attention as the "salary" part of
paid internships.

This is why I'm very happy to see Sruthi's platform mention not only a "Diversity budget" but also "Diversity activities" and "Local
activities". This sounds like a kick-ass trio to improve diversity in
Debian :)

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Louis-Philippe Véronneau
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ pollo@debian.org / veronneau.org
⠈⠳⣄

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