• Status of proposal E (SC change + non-free-firmware in installer)

    From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 11 22:40:01 2022
    Hi all,

    Moving this into a separate thread from all the discussion for a bit more visibility.

    Thank you for all the discussion over the past couple of days about my
    proposal and about possible rewordings to point 5 of the Social Contract.
    The short summary is that, after considering that feedback, I'm going to
    stick with the current wording for proposal E for this vote.

    I see a clear desire to reword point 5 of the Social Contract to get rid
    of some obsolete language and possibly tighten and clarify it, but I also
    think it's somewhat orthogonal to the current GR. Therefore, I'm going to stick, for this GR, with making what I think is the minimal change
    required to make proposal A clearly consistent with the Social Contract,
    and then will look at starting a separate GR to update SC point 5 based on
    the outcome of that vote.

    Here's my rationale:

    * I was reluctant to propose a ballot option in part because I don't have
    a lot of time at the moment to spend on this discussion. There was a
    lot of great feedback about how to reword point 5, and I very quickly
    ran out of time to absorb it and iterate. This argues for not trying to
    do that now with me as the proposer, given my constraints.

    * At least one person has already said that they would like to see SC5
    reworded, but also would prefer a ballot option other than proposal A
    (and my proposal E, which is identical but with the SC change added).
    This is concrete evidence that these changes are orthogonal, and rather
    than put the combinatorial explosion on the ballot, I think it's best to
    stick with the minimum change relevant to this GR and move the rewording
    to a separate GR.

    * I'm in general opposed to trying to do changes to foundation documents
    quickly. We're in the last few days of an already-extended discussion
    period and coming up quickly on a vote. Now is the time to stop
    changing things about what we're voting on. If we move larger changes
    to the SC to a separate discussion, I can post some early drafts, we can
    have preliminary discussions among the most interested to hash out
    wording, people can prepare alternatives in advance, and then we can
    enter a fresh discussion period with more groundwork laid and more of
    the initial discussions hashed out, which is how I'd prefer to handle
    it.

    The way I see it is that this GR is primarily intended to provide project guidance to the team working on the installer and installation media, at
    their explicit request, on how to handle non-free firmware. I think the options already on the ballot provide a good range of possible decisions
    the project can make and directly address that request. We can decide, as
    part of that vote, whether to give explicit SC guidance that the installer
    can be partly non-free, or not, which is directly relevant. Then, once
    that's decided, we'll largely know what we want SC5 to say in terms of practical effect, and we can have a separate discussion on the best way to
    say it.

    Steve's suggestion of dropping the explicit contrib and non-free wording
    from SC5 as part of my ballot option is more borderline, since that's also directly relevant to this GR, but I'm going to err on the side of not
    changing things and stick with my belief that the existing language
    implicitly allows for multiple non-free sections. If it becomes relevant
    by my proposal winning, we can then clean up the language in the
    subsequent GR.

    Hope this makes sense to everyone, and of course if anyone thinks I'm
    making a big mistake, I'm very open to hearing that.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Holger Levsen@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 12 01:40:01 2022
    Hi Russ,

    thank you for working on option E! :)

    that said, I think I want option F, where F is to E what B is to A,
    (according how I read https://www.debian.org/vote/2022/vote_003 now)
    or IOW, option E where both types of installers (with and without
    non-free firmwarez) are offered. (so a new option F.)

    I'd appreciate if someone would word this more formally so
    this can be seconded and become an option on the ballot.

    or maybe, it's possible to reword option E, because my only problem
    is with the last sentence which reads

    "We will publish these images as official Debian media, replacing
    the current media sets that do not include non-free firmware packages."

    and which I'd rather like to read

    "We will publish these images as official Debian media, in addition to
    the current media sets that do not include non-free firmware packages."

    (so s#replacing#in addition to# which I'm not sure is worth another
    option on the ballot. maybe it is.)


    --
    cheers,
    Holger

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
    ⠈⠳⣄

    The system isn't broken. It was built this way.

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Holger Levsen on Mon Sep 12 05:00:01 2022
    Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> writes:

    or maybe, it's possible to reword option E, because my only problem
    is with the last sentence which reads

    "We will publish these images as official Debian media, replacing
    the current media sets that do not include non-free firmware packages."

    and which I'd rather like to read

    "We will publish these images as official Debian media, in addition to
    the current media sets that do not include non-free firmware packages."

    (so s#replacing#in addition to# which I'm not sure is worth another
    option on the ballot. maybe it is.)

    I think the difference between those two sentences is part of the whole
    thing that Steve is asking the project to decide, so I want to make sure
    that the outcome of the GR is still clear about the question Steve is
    trying to get answered, SC issues aside.

    I have no objection to someone proposing an option F that has the SC
    change plus Gunnar's wording, but I also don't think Gunnar's wording
    requires any SC change, since we're still distributing a free installer
    (part of the Debian system) and a non-free installer (not part of the
    Debian system). I personally am okay with having an official installer
    that's not part of the Debian system; it's a bit of an odd collision of wording, but the non-free repository is in a sense an official part of
    Debian (there is a specific non-free section maintained by Debian that is
    in that sense "official"), even though it's not part of the Debian system.
    (I understand why people might disagree, but that's where I am.) For me,
    it was the point where we stop distributing any other installer where I
    felt like we should probably modify the SC because otherwise it feels
    arguably in conflict.

    So, for what it's worth, that's my rationale for why I think only option A should have an SC-modifying version.

    That said, if option B wins, we could also tackle this as part of the
    follow-up work on rewording SC5. Or of course someone could propose
    another option, which would be fine! (But I don't have the resources to
    do that myself.)

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Gunnar Wolf@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 12 20:00:01 2022
    Russ Allbery dijo [Mon, Sep 12, 2022 at 10:52:46AM -0700]:
    If we happen to fall down this leg of the Trousers of Time, I would be inclined to explicitly reinstate option A in any SC ballot options that
    would make A consistent with the SC as revised.

    In practice, I think this specific outcome is unlikely in that I expect
    that if people were willing to change the SC to be consistent with option
    A, they'd just vote my option E. The most likely case where option A
    would win but not option E is if option E failed to get a 3:1 majority and then option A was the favorite among the remaining options, but in that
    case the SC amendment in the third step would presumably also fail to
    gather a 3:1 majority.

    Ack, it makes perfect sense.

    So... I'll blame my obtuseness on the fact that 8hr timezone
    difference still accounts for a confused brain trying to get out of
    jetlag ;-)

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  • From Gunnar Wolf@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 12 19:40:01 2022
    Russ Allbery dijo [Sun, Sep 11, 2022 at 01:38:59PM -0700]:
    Hi all,

    Moving this into a separate thread from all the discussion for a bit more visibility.

    Thank you for all the discussion over the past couple of days about my proposal and about possible rewordings to point 5 of the Social Contract.
    The short summary is that, after considering that feedback, I'm going to stick with the current wording for proposal E for this vote.

    Hi Russ,

    For those not reading debian-private, I was on [VAC] for slightly over
    a week, as I went to a conference in Cyprus, and... well, I was not
    able to keep my mind online during said period.

    I haven't read the last ~50 messages on debian-vote, so part of what
    I'm commenting might already have been discussed.

    I see a clear desire to reword point 5 of the Social Contract to get rid
    of some obsolete language and possibly tighten and clarify it, but I also think it's somewhat orthogonal to the current GR. Therefore, I'm going to stick, for this GR, with making what I think is the minimal change
    required to make proposal A clearly consistent with the Social Contract,
    and then will look at starting a separate GR to update SC point 5 based on the outcome of that vote.
    (...)

    Yes. I completely agree with your rationale here. Particularly the
    point about "non-free-firmware installer" and "SC#5
    updating/rewording" being almost-orthogonal. And also about the need
    for more time than the tail of an ongoing GR for thinking and
    discussing foundation-document-altering GRs.

    Now, my thinking wandered off to the following timeline:

    almost-now o Voting is open with the A,B,C,D,E option set.
    | We know the Secretary has warned that some options
    | winning might trigger his obligation to mark the
    | vote as invalid.
    |
    weeks-from- o Vote concludes. Option A wins. The Secretary rules
    now | the vote invalid.
    |
    few-months- o GR for changing SC#5 is called, discussed, voted.
    future | There is no longer a SC conflict between
    | 2022/vote_003 and SC#5.
    |

    What would follow from here? Would the SC change automatically enable
    the Secretary to reinstate the winning option A for 2022/vote_003? Or
    are such rulings made (as would make sense!) for the "current
    reality"? Would running the same vote again be in place?

    Sorry for the hypothesizing, but I think it's important to udnerstand
    where we are and where would this lead us to.

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Gunnar Wolf on Mon Sep 12 20:00:01 2022
    Gunnar Wolf <gwolf@debian.org> writes:

    Now, my thinking wandered off to the following timeline:

    almost-now o Voting is open with the A,B,C,D,E option set.
    | We know the Secretary has warned that some options
    | winning might trigger his obligation to mark the
    | vote as invalid.
    |
    weeks-from- o Vote concludes. Option A wins. The Secretary rules
    now | the vote invalid.
    |
    few-months- o GR for changing SC#5 is called, discussed, voted. future | There is no longer a SC conflict between
    | 2022/vote_003 and SC#5.
    |

    What would follow from here? Would the SC change automatically enable
    the Secretary to reinstate the winning option A for 2022/vote_003? Or
    are such rulings made (as would make sense!) for the "current
    reality"? Would running the same vote again be in place?

    Sorry for the hypothesizing, but I think it's important to udnerstand
    where we are and where would this lead us to.

    If we happen to fall down this leg of the Trousers of Time, I would be
    inclined to explicitly reinstate option A in any SC ballot options that
    would make A consistent with the SC as revised.

    In practice, I think this specific outcome is unlikely in that I expect
    that if people were willing to change the SC to be consistent with option
    A, they'd just vote my option E. The most likely case where option A
    would win but not option E is if option E failed to get a 3:1 majority and
    then option A was the favorite among the remaining options, but in that
    case the SC amendment in the third step would presumably also fail to
    gather a 3:1 majority.

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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