• Question about Debian redistribution

    From Navtej Bhatti@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 5 00:50:01 2022
    Hello, greetings everyone! I have a project to get Linux (specifically
    Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Arch) working on chromebooks. My users
    currently must execute debootstrap to build the rootfs of Debian. This is particularly cumbersome for Windows users, who would instead want to flash
    an *iso* image. Ubuntu states that you need to remove all mentions of the
    name debian from within all packages (or something alike :D), however I
    have found that Debian just requires you to name the CD something other
    than Debian. I am very new to licensing matters, so excuse my inexperienced nature with all of this. Am I allowed to redistribute an iso file
    containing the Debian rootfs, but with only free packages added (including
    the debian "firmware-linux-free") and some configuration files changed? The heart of my software is my specialized vmlinuz flashed to another partition
    of the USB.

    My Github for this project: https://github.com/MilkyDeveloper/cb-linux
    And a similar question I asked, but for Ubuntu instead of Debian Sid: https://askubuntu.com/questions/1382628/what-does-it-mean-to-modify-ubuntu/

    Thanks for any help :D

    <div dir="ltr"><div>Hello, greetings everyone! I have a project to get Linux (specifically Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Arch) working on chromebooks. My users currently must execute debootstrap to build the rootfs of Debian. This is particularly
    cumbersome for Windows users, who would instead want to flash an <i>iso</i> image. Ubuntu states that you need to remove all mentions of the name debian from within all packages (or something alike :D), however I have found that Debian just requires you
    to name the CD something other than Debian. I am very new to licensing matters, so excuse my inexperienced nature with all of this. Am I allowed to redistribute an iso file containing the Debian rootfs, but with only free packages added (including the
    debian &quot;firmware-linux-free&quot;) and some configuration files changed? The heart of my software is my specialized vmlinuz flashed to another partition of the USB.</div><div><br></div><div>My Github for this project: <a href="https://github.com/
    MilkyDeveloper/cb-linux">https://github.com/MilkyDeveloper/cb-linux</a></div><div>And a similar question I asked, but for Ubuntu instead of Debian Sid: <a href="https://askubuntu.com/questions/1382628/what-does-it-mean-to-modify-ubuntu/">https://
    askubuntu.com/questions/1382628/what-does-it-mean-to-modify-ubuntu/</a></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for any help :D<br></div></div>

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  • From Walter Landry@21:1/5 to Navtej Bhatti on Wed Jan 5 06:30:01 2022
    Navtej Bhatti writes:
    Am I allowed to redistribute an iso file containing the Debian rootfs,
    but with only free packages added (including the debian "firmware-linux-free") and some configuration files changed? The heart
    of my software is my specialized vmlinuz flashed to another partition
    of the USB.

    Debian certainly encourages this kind of modification. Debian's
    trademark rules are here

    https://www.debian.org/trademark

    As for your specific case, it sounds like you are essentially offering a specialized installer with a different kernel, but otherwise it is stock Debian? I think that makes you a Debian derivative

    https://www.debian.org/derivatives/

    There are some detailed guidelines here

    https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Guidelines

    I think any required changes would be minimal. However, I am just some
    guy on the internet, and I can not speak with authority. If those
    guidelines are not sufficient and you need a more definitive answer,
    then you probably need to speak to the Debian Project Leader.

    Cheers,
    Walter Landry

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  • From Paul Wise@21:1/5 to Navtej Bhatti on Wed Jan 5 09:40:02 2022
    Navtej Bhatti wrote:

    I have a project to get Linux (specifically Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora,
    and Arch) working on chromebooks.

    This sounds like something that should be done within those
    distributions themselves, rather than outside them in a separate
    project. General distros want to be able to support Chromebooks too.

    Navtej Bhatti wrote on https://milkydeveloper.github.io/cb-linux/:

    Depthcharge does not have the ability of using an initramfs

    This is an unsupported configuration for booting Debian, and I bet for
    every other Linux distro, since they rely on the initramfs to contain
    software needed to load the rootfs.

    This requirement could probably be worked around by adding an initramfs post-build hook that would unpack the built initramfs to the partition
    (and copy the Linux kernel) that Depthcharge boots from, the unpacked
    initramfs would mount the real rootfs and boot as normal.

    The Debian installer could have images containing similarly repacked
    installer initramfs for use by Chromebook users.

    the same forked Linux kernel as ChromeOS

    Debian and most other distros generally only support the mainline Linux
    kernel, so it would be good if those patches could get sent upstream. Eventually the installed ChromeOS kernel will get too old to run Debian userland as glibc and systemd Linux kernel requirements increase.

    PS: your project reminds me of the various chroot-on-Android projects:

    https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid

    PS: there are some Debian wiki pages about chromebooks:

    https://wiki.debian.org/?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=chromebook&titlesearch=Titles
    https://wiki.debian.org/?action=fullsearch&titlesearch=0&value=chromebook&context=180

    --
    bye,
    pabs

    https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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  • From Mihai Moldovan@21:1/5 to Paul Wise on Wed Jan 5 16:30:02 2022
    This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --m7zwho3RHZypjrEMuUjm1Brr34xUQStDc
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
    Content-Language: en-US
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    * On 1/5/22 9:32 AM, Paul Wise wrote:
    [...]
    Navtej Bhatti wrote on https://milkydeveloper.github.io/cb-linux/:

    Depthcharge does not have the ability of using an initramfs

    This is an unsupported configuration for booting Debian, and I bet for
    every other Linux distro, since they rely on the initramfs to contain software needed to load the rootfs.

    While fully off-topic for the list, it also doesn't seem to be true.

    This set of tools includes examples of how to integrate a kernel and an initramfs: https://github.com/alpernebbi/depthcharge-tools



    Mihai



    --m7zwho3RHZypjrEMuUjm1Brr34xUQStDc--

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  • From Navtej Bhatti@21:1/5 to ionic@ionic.de on Wed Jan 5 17:10:02 2022
    Thanks for this valuable information! A little off-topic about the
    initramfs and kernel: Google pushes new kernels on Chromebooks more often
    than on Android devices. Driver support on the kernel 5.4 appears to be
    similar with the stock 4.X kernels shipped with the devices. I find an initramfs unnecessary, and it seems like Google developers think the same thing. Distro support is perfect in my experience - but of course things
    like Plymouth cannot start early and DKMS is unsupported. Back to the licensing: I can't really *integrate* the changes into distributions. I
    could package the kernel into distributions - but then users need to flash custom Coreboot firmware, which takes a lot of steps. If I want Debian to
    boot with the stock firmware, I need a specific partition layout that is completely foreign to UEFI systems. I don't think this would integrate well
    in Linux distributions. So I feel like the only solution that complies with Debian licensing is to create something like NOOBS on the Raspberry Pi - a distribution downloader. However, this too is complex. I don't want to
    change the distribution names themselves, since that would cause more fragmentation. But, I guess my only option is to change my distribution
    naming, which I will proceed to do. Any other suggestions to distribute
    Debian but not create a whole separate distribution?

    On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:22 AM Mihai Moldovan <ionic@ionic.de> wrote:

    * On 1/5/22 9:32 AM, Paul Wise wrote:
    [...]
    Navtej Bhatti wrote on https://milkydeveloper.github.io/cb-linux/:

    Depthcharge does not have the ability of using an initramfs

    This is an unsupported configuration for booting Debian, and I bet for every other Linux distro, since they rely on the initramfs to contain software needed to load the rootfs.

    While fully off-topic for the list, it also doesn't seem to be true.

    This set of tools includes examples of how to integrate a kernel and an initramfs: https://github.com/alpernebbi/depthcharge-tools



    Mihai




    <div dir="ltr">Thanks for this valuable information! A little off-topic about the initramfs and kernel: Google pushes new kernels on Chromebooks more often than on Android devices. Driver support on the kernel 5.4 appears to be similar with the stock 4.X
    kernels shipped with the devices. I find an initramfs unnecessary, and it seems like Google developers think the same thing. Distro support is perfect in my experience - but of course things like Plymouth cannot start early and DKMS is unsupported. Back
    to the licensing: I can&#39;t really <i>integrate</i> the changes into distributions. I could package the kernel into distributions - but then users need to flash custom Coreboot firmware, which takes a lot of steps. If I want Debian to boot with the
    stock firmware, I need a specific partition layout that is completely foreign to UEFI systems. I don&#39;t think this would integrate well in Linux distributions. So I feel like the only solution that complies with Debian licensing is to create something
    like NOOBS on the Raspberry Pi - a distribution downloader. However, this too is complex. I don&#39;t want to change the distribution names themselves, since that would cause more fragmentation. But, I guess my only option is to change my distribution
    naming, which I will proceed to do. Any other suggestions to distribute Debian but not create a whole separate distribution?<br></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 9:22 AM Mihai Moldovan &lt;<a href=
    "mailto:ionic@ionic.de">ionic@ionic.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">* On 1/5/22 9:32 AM, Paul Wise wrote:<br>
    &gt; [...]<br>
    &gt; Navtej Bhatti wrote on <a href="https://milkydeveloper.github.io/cb-linux/" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://milkydeveloper.github.io/cb-linux/</a>:<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt;&gt; Depthcharge does not have the ability of using an initramfs<br>
    &gt; <br>
    &gt; This is an unsupported configuration for booting Debian, and I bet for<br> &gt; every other Linux distro, since they rely on the initramfs to contain<br> &gt; software needed to load the rootfs.<br>

    While fully off-topic for the list, it also doesn&#39;t seem to be true.<br>

    This set of tools includes examples of how to integrate a kernel and an<br> initramfs: <a href="https://github.com/alpernebbi/depthcharge-tools" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://github.com/alpernebbi/depthcharge-tools</a><br>



    Mihai<br>


    </blockquote></div>

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  • From Paul Wise@21:1/5 to Navtej Bhatti on Thu Jan 6 09:20:01 2022
    On Wed, 2022-01-05 at 16:08 -0600, Navtej Bhatti wrote:

    If I want Debian to boot with the stock firmware, I need a specific
    partition layout that is completely foreign to UEFI systems. I don't
    think this would integrate well in Linux distributions.

    I note that the depthcharge-tools author attempted to get it into
    Debian, in the process giving the standard Debian installer support for
    booting on Chromebook stock firmware and creating Debian installations
    that boot with the Chromebook stock firmware. Looking at the RFS it
    seems that more work is needed on the packaging. I suggest that if
    anyone is interested in getting this work into Debian then they could
    offer Alper Nebi Yasak their assistance.

    https://bugs.debian.org/950687
    https://bugs.debian.org/950718

    PS: IMO when possible stock firmware should always be overwritten with
    libre firmware packaged by the distro. Debian doesn't yet have a
    coreboot package, but there is some work in progress:

    https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware/Open
    https://bugs.debian.org/381727

    --
    bye,
    pabs

    https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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