• Trying to join the hamradio team

    From Roland Schwarz@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 1 13:30:02 2021
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  • From Christoph Berg@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 1 20:10:02 2021
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    It's salsa now indeed.

    Welcome!

    Christoph DF7CB
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    <!DOCTYPE html><html><body>It's salsa now indeed.<br><br>Welcome!<br><br>Christoph DF7CB</body></html>
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  • From Roland OE1RSA@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 7 18:00:04 2021
    On 01.11.21 at 20:08 wrote Christoph Berg:
    Welcome!

    Thank you. I would like to work on the soundmodem package. I do
    understand that debian is all about packaging and distribution and not
    so much on working on the upstream.

    However, since almost all upstream links are looking defunct and I have
    not been able to contact Thomas Sailer (the original author) and I want
    to contribute changes to the source code as well I am seeking for advice
    or suggestions of how to proceed.

    Thank you, Roland OE1RSA

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  • From Christoph Berg@21:1/5 to All on Sun Nov 7 20:40:05 2021
    Re: Roland OE1RSA
    Thank you. I would like to work on the soundmodem package. I do understand that debian is all about packaging and distribution and not so much on working on the upstream.

    However, since almost all upstream links are looking defunct and I have not been able to contact Thomas Sailer (the original author) and I want to contribute changes to the source code as well I am seeking for advice or suggestions of how to proceed.

    Hi Roland,

    afaict the modem to use these days is direwolf. Is there anything that soundmodem does that direwolf doesn't do?

    Generally you can of course also use salsa.debian.org to host
    upstream, it might be more sensible to use some "mainstream" git
    hoster like github or gitlab if you plan to become the new soundmodem
    upstream. That way chances of getting other people's contributions
    might be better.

    (Some googling later) The current upstream repo for soundmodem is
    actually on gitlab, and the last commit by Thomas was 1 hour ago:

    https://gitlab.com/tsailer/soundmodem

    (The hast activity before that was in 2016, though.)

    Christoph

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  • From David Ranch@21:1/5 to Christoph Berg on Sun Nov 7 23:40:01 2021
    I 100% agree with Christph here. Soundmodem was a great project for
    it's time but it hasn't received any meaningful improvements in over a
    decade has been superseded by several far better performing solutions:

    - Direwolf is an excellent multi-platform choice and runs natively
    on Linux : This also includes it's own AX.25 v2.2 stack with FX.25
    support, TCP-KISS, and AGW server support

    - UZ7HO's soundmodem is a great Windows-only modem but evidently
    runs well under Wine


    I have a list of other software packet modems here if you're curious:

    https://www.trinityos.com/HAM/CentosDigitalModes/hampacketizing-centos.html#6.softtnc

    --David
    KI6ZHD



    On 11/07/2021 11:34 AM, Christoph Berg wrote:
    Re: Roland OE1RSA
    Thank you. I would like to work on the soundmodem package. I do understand >> that debian is all about packaging and distribution and not so much on
    working on the upstream.

    However, since almost all upstream links are looking defunct and I have not >> been able to contact Thomas Sailer (the original author) and I want to
    contribute changes to the source code as well I am seeking for advice or
    suggestions of how to proceed.
    Hi Roland,

    afaict the modem to use these days is direwolf. Is there anything that soundmodem does that direwolf doesn't do?

    Generally you can of course also use salsa.debian.org to host
    upstream, it might be more sensible to use some "mainstream" git
    hoster like github or gitlab if you plan to become the new soundmodem upstream. That way chances of getting other people's contributions
    might be better.

    (Some googling later) The current upstream repo for soundmodem is
    actually on gitlab, and the last commit by Thomas was 1 hour ago:

    https://gitlab.com/tsailer/soundmodem

    (The hast activity before that was in 2016, though.)

    Christoph

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  • From Roland Schwarz@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 8 13:10:02 2021
    Hello Christoph,

    On 07.11.21 at 20:34 wrote Christoph Berg:
    afaict the modem to use these days is direwolf. Is there anything that soundmodem does that direwolf doesn't do?

    Yes, I am aware of this fact. Indeed the direwolf modem for sure is a
    very solid implementation with a vivid user community. My perception,
    however, is that direwolf is focused on APRS and comes with its own implementation of an ax25 stack.

    What I like about the soundmodem is its tight integration with the linux
    ax25 kernel stack and the fact that it is capable of multimode. There
    are other reasons as well that make the codebase interesting to me, but
    about that later, if you really like.

    <snip>
    (Some googling later) The current upstream repo for soundmodem is
    actually on gitlab, and the last commit by Thomas was 1 hour ago:

    https://gitlab.com/tsailer/soundmodem

    (The hast activity before that was in 2016, though.)

    Yes I know, thank you. The last commit indeed was triggered by my
    request to merge a tiny change that I suggested.

    Roland

    --
    __________________________________________
    _ _ | Roland Schwarz
    |_)(_ |
    | \__) | mailto:roland.schwarz@blackspace.at
    ________| http://www.blackspace.at

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  • From David Ranch@21:1/5 to All on Mon Nov 8 17:40:01 2021
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
    Hello Roland,

    Yes, I am aware of this fact. Indeed the direwolf modem for sure is a
    very solid implementation with a vivid user community. My perception, however, is that direwolf is focused on APRS and comes with its own implementation of an ax25 stack.

    What I like about the soundmodem is its tight integration with the
    linux ax25 kernel stack and the fact that it is capable of multimode.
    There are other reasons as well that make the codebase interesting to
    me, but about that later, if you really like.

    Direwolf can be directly connected to the Linux AX.25 stack either via
    it's PTS pseudo-serial interface or it's TCP-KISS interface and socat.
    Next up, yes, soundmodem does offer the ability to send AX.25 packets
    over at least one alternative mode but in my experience, that one mode
    didn't perform very well and never gained any adoption. Direwolf offers multiple modes (AFSK, FSK, PSK, QPSK, IL2P, etc) as well as FX.25
    support be it for speed, robustness, etc. Finally, if you run various
    packet decode tests, you'll see that Thomas Sailers's soundmodem gets
    about a 60-65% decode rate where as Direwolf, UZ7HO's soundmodem, and
    even some hardware TNCs get in upwards of 95%:

    https://raw.githubusercontent.com/wb2osz/direwolf/master/doc/WA8LMF-TNC-Test-CD-Results.pdf


    --David
    KI6ZHD

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta content="text/html; charset=utf-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
    </head>
    <body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
    <br>
    Hello Roland,<br>
    <br>
    <blockquote
    cite="mid:ead3128b-135b-707e-e24c-dd69e1b814bd@blackspace.at"
    type="cite">Yes, I am aware of this fact. Indeed the direwolf
    modem for sure is a very solid implementation with a vivid user
    community. My perception, however, is that direwolf is focused on
    APRS and comes with its own implementation of an ax25 stack.
    <br>
    <br>
    What I like about the soundmodem is its tight integration with the
    linux ax25 kernel stack and the fact that it is capable of
    multimode. There are other reasons as well that make the codebase
    interesting to me, but about that later, if you really like.
    <br>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Direwolf can be directly connected to the Linux AX.25 stack either
    via it's PTS pseudo-serial interface or it's TCP-KISS interface and
    socat.  Next up, yes, soundmodem does offer the ability to send
    AX.25 packets over at least one alternative mode but in my
    experience, that one mode didn't perform very well and never gained
    any adoption.  Direwolf offers multiple modes (AFSK, FSK, PSK, QPSK,
    IL2P, etc) as well as FX.25 support be it for speed, robustness,
    etc.  Finally, if you run various packet decode tests, you'll see
    that Thomas Sailers's soundmodem gets about a 60-65% decode rate
    where as Direwolf, UZ7HO's soundmodem, and even some hardware TNCs
    get in upwards of 95%:<br>
    <br>
      
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://raw.githubusercontent.com/wb2osz/direwolf/master/doc/WA8LMF-TNC-Test-CD-Results.pdf">https://raw.githubusercontent.com/wb2osz/direwolf/master/doc/WA8LMF-TNC-Test-CD-Results.pdf</a>  
    <br>
    <br>
    --David<br>
    KI6ZHD<br>
    </body>
    </html>

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  • From Roland Schwarz@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 08:40:01 2021
    On 08.11.21 at 16:45 wrote David Ranch:
    Direwolf can be directly connected to the Linux AX.25 stack either via
    it's PTS pseudo-serial interface or it's TCP-KISS interface and socat.

    Yes, thank you, I know all these facts and I have successfully tried
    them out. The kissattach program, however, is needed to connect the
    ptty. Unfortunately kissattach is not very systemd friendly because it
    does not store its pid into a file, so it can be controlled. Yes this
    could be fixed by fixing kissattach, and yes the issue can be worked
    around. "soundmodem" on the other hand does not need kissatach because
    it uses the kernel mkiss interface.

    Next up, yes, soundmodem does offer the ability to send AX.25 packets
    over at least one alternative mode but in my experience, that one mode
    didn't perform very well and never gained any adoption.

    Perhaps we do not understand the same thing when speaking about modes?
    What I mean is that you can set up, say 1200Bd and 9600Bd on the same
    radio link at the same time (well almost), i.e. you can work two
    different stations each connected at its speed of the same radio link.
    To my knowledge this is a feature that is planned for direwolf, but not available today, correct?

    Direwolf offers
    multiple modes (AFSK, FSK, PSK, QPSK, IL2P, etc) as well as FX.25
    support be it for speed, robustness, etc.

    Yes this a impressive.

    Finally, if you run various
    packet decode tests, you'll see that Thomas Sailers's soundmodem gets
    about a 60-65% decode rate where as Direwolf, UZ7HO's soundmodem, and
    even some hardware TNCs get in upwards of 95%:

    https://raw.githubusercontent.com/wb2osz/direwolf/master/doc/WA8LMF-TNC-Test-CD-Results.pdf

    Thank you for the pointer, I will look into this later when I have some
    time.

    73 Roland, oe1rsa
    --
    __________________________________________
    _ _ | Roland Schwarz
    |_)(_ |
    | \__) | mailto:roland.schwarz@blackspace.at
    ________| http://www.blackspace.at

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  • From Basil Gunn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 16:40:01 2021
    Unfortunately kissattach is not very systemd friendly because it
    does not store its pid into a file, so it can be controlled.

    Example of how to use kissattach with systemd. Kissattach is called from
    a script ax25-upd

    https://github.com/nwdigitalradio/n7nix/blob/master/systemd/ax25/ax25-upd

    systemd service file calls the ax25-upd script.

    https://github.com/nwdigitalradio/n7nix/blob/master/systemd/sysd/ax25dev.service

    Yes this could be fixed by fixing kissattach, and yes the issue can be
    worked around. "soundmodem" on the other hand does not need kissatach
    because it uses the kernel mkiss interface.
    ...
    Perhaps we do not understand the same thing when speaking about modes?
    What I mean is that you can set up, say 1200Bd and 9600Bd on the same
    radio link at the same time (well almost), i.e. you can work two
    different stations each connected at its speed of the same radio
    link. To my knowledge this is a feature that is planned for direwolf,
    but not available today, correct?

    Have been running 1200/9600 on same channel using direwolf and the DRAWS
    sound card for around 4 months:

    https://github.com/nwdigitalradio/n7nix/tree/master/baudrate

    I'm still working on the documentation. This method is not specific to
    DRAWS it's just easier because it is a dual channel (stereo) codec. You
    could get this working with 2 mono channel sound cards and direwolf as
    well.

    /Basil n7nix

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  • From David Ranch@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 17:30:01 2021
    Hello Roland,

    Yes, thank you, I know all these facts and I have successfully tried
    them out. The kissattach program, however, is needed to connect the
    ptty. Unfortunately kissattach is not very systemd friendly because it
    does not store its pid into a file, so it can be controlled. Yes this
    could be fixed by fixing kissattach, and yes the issue can be worked
    around. "soundmodem" on the other hand does not need kissatach because
    it uses the kernel mkiss interface.

    There are several examples of how to integrate Direwolf into a systemd
    unit and service but that's more of a Linux distribution topic more than
    purely a Direwolf issue . See Basil's follow up email on this thread
    for some examples and there are others in the groups.io archives.


    What I mean is that you can set up, say 1200Bd and 9600Bd on the same
    radio link at the same time (well almost), i.e. you can work two
    different stations each connected at its speed of the same radio link.
    To my knowledge this is a feature that is planned for direwolf, but not available today, correct?

    It's been a long time since I've used Thomas Sailer's soundmodem and I
    don't remember if it supported such a configuration but I would be
    surprised if it did. Even if it does, it's decode performance is so low (especially on 9600bps FSK), why would it really matter?

    Btw.. if you're looking for alternatives to Direwolf that are actively maintained and have good to excellent decode rates, you might want to
    check out John Weisman's soundmodem which is based on Andy Kopanchuk
    UZ7HO's Windows soundmodem:

    https://www.cantab.net/users/john.wiseman/Documents/QtSoundModem.html

    --David
    KI6ZHD

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  • From Roland Schwarz@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 19:10:01 2021
    Hi David,

    On 09.11.21 at 17:01 wrote David Ranch:
    ...
    It's been a long time since I've used Thomas Sailer's soundmodem and I
    don't remember if it supported such a configuration but I would be
    surprised if it did.

    So let me surprise you: Yes it does.

    Even if it does, it's decode performance is so low
    (especially on 9600bps FSK), why would it really matter?

    I know all this and I already started working on the "problem". As you
    know for sure, a straight implementation of FSK over FM requires that
    the audio channel over the radio is capable of transmitting very low frequencies, ideally down to only a few hertz. You are lucky if you get
    down to 50-100Hz but it can get as worse as 300Hz. The direwolf approach
    is a clever one by running a couple of modems in parallel, each with a
    decision level which is slightly offset to every other. After a packet
    decode all CRCs of all modems are checked and the good ones are taken. Effectively the approach converts the CRC into a kind of FEC and the
    decode rate gets substantially better.

    My approach goes beyond the multiple levels by restoring (or equalizing)
    the baseline (for a single modem). Consequently I term the algorithm
    "baseline restoration algorithm" (BLR). You can think of the BLR as of
    an equalizer which makes use of the fact that only two signal levels of opposite polarity are transmitted. The algorithm, however, is not one of
    the usual equalization algorithms but something I have invented after a discussion with OM Chris OE5DXL. I implemented an initial prove of the algorithm in GnuRadio and then in soundmodem with encouraging first
    results. Of course it will require more testing before I go to the
    larger public. Just to wet the appetite: 9600Bd works well over a radio
    with a 300Hz lower usable frequency. I found the code base of soundmodem
    very easy to work with and since it is unlikely that I will stamp on
    someones else feet because it is not used much, I decided to go with it.

    Btw.. if you're looking for alternatives to Direwolf that are actively maintained and have good to excellent decode rates, you might want to
    check out John Weisman's soundmodem which is based on Andy Kopanchuk
    UZ7HO's Windows soundmodem:

    This might be a good modem, but using a modem on the wine emulator under
    linux definitively is not something I want to do. So, thank you, but no.

    vy 73 de Roland oe1rsa

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  • From Basil Gunn@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 19:50:01 2021
    On 09.11.21 at 16:38 wrote Basil Gunn:
    Example of how to use kissattach with systemd. Kissattach is called from
    a script ax25-upd

    https://github.com/nwdigitalradio/n7nix/blob/master/systemd/ax25/ax25-upd

    Thank you for the pointer to these great scripts! After a first look
    into them a question pops up: How is the kissatach killed on tear
    down?
    I cannot see the line where this is done. Would you please so kind and explain it to me?

    Yes. I agree it is sort of hard to follow.

    I have 3 scripts that manage the direwolf/ax.25 linkage
    ax25-start
    ax25-stop
    ax25-status

    Since ax.25 binds to direwolf ax25-start/ax25-stop brings both direwolf
    & ax.25 up/down together.

    ax25-stop stops the following systemd services:

    ax25dev.service
    ax25dev.path
    direwolf.service
    ax25-mheardd.service
    ax25d.service

    The ax25dev.service calls script ax25-downd https://github.com/nwdigitalradio/n7nix/blob/master/systemd/ax25/ax25-downd
    and near the bottom of that script you will see:

    # Stop Kissattach
    killall -KILL kissattach > /dev/null

    /Basil

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  • From Roland Schwarz@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 19:20:01 2021
    Hello Basil,

    On 09.11.21 at 16:38 wrote Basil Gunn:
    Example of how to use kissattach with systemd. Kissattach is called from
    a script ax25-upd

    https://github.com/nwdigitalradio/n7nix/blob/master/systemd/ax25/ax25-upd

    Thank you for the pointer to these great scripts! After a first look
    into them a question pops up: How is the kissatach killed on tear down?
    I cannot see the line where this is done. Would you please so kind and
    explain it to me?

    vy 73 oe1rsa

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  • From David Ranch@21:1/5 to All on Tue Nov 9 22:40:13 2021
    Hello Roland,


    Even if it does, it's decode performance is so low
    (especially on 9600bps FSK), why would it really matter?

    I know all this and I already started working on the "problem".

    Ok and of course, it's entirely your choice if you want to modernize
    Thomas Sailer's soundmodem to improve it's performance. One other thing
    to consider here is that Thomas's code uses GTK2 which is EOL and
    generally no longer available in modern OSes. As such, effort will be
    required to port that to say GTK3 or some other supported framework.


    check out John Weisman's soundmodem which is based on Andy Kopanchuk
    UZ7HO's Windows soundmodem:

    This might be a good modem, but using a modem on the wine emulator under linux definitively is not something I want to do. So, thank you, but no.

    G8BPQ's soundmodem is a port of the modem code to a whole new
    Linux-native application. No MS Windows GUI requirements and/or use of
    WINE in his port as it's using Qt.

    --David
    KI6ZHD

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  • From Roland Schwarz@21:1/5 to David Ranch on Fri Jan 28 18:00:01 2022
    To: debian-hams@lists.debian.org

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