Hello,

As part of an upcoming survey that we are preparing, we plan to ask
Debian developers to rank, by order of importance, the most popular
ideas of improvements for Debian.

However, there's no easy way to identify what are the most popular ideas
of improvements that Debian ought to make. We know of the
"grow-your-ideas" project on Salsa, but it's far from exhaustive:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements
that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

Another useful thing to do would be to review the current ideas in that
project and up-vote those that you find interesting. You can do that by
opening the issue and clicking on the "thumbs-up" button. That way we
can easily identify the most popular ideas:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues?sort=popularity

(Note that you can watch the project or just some specific issues if you
want to participate in the exchanges happening in the various issues.)

For the record, the goal of this question in our upcoming survey is to
help us identify useful projects to fund as part of our project funding initiative:

https://salsa.debian.org/freexian-team/project-funding

--
Seb, on behalf of the Freexian team

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Sébastien Delafond <seb@debian.org> writes:

Hello,

As part of an upcoming survey that we are preparing, we plan to ask
Debian developers to rank, by order of importance, the most popular
ideas of improvements for Debian.

However, there's no easy way to identify what are the most popular ideas
of improvements that Debian ought to make. We know of the
"grow-your-ideas" project on Salsa, but it's far from exhaustive:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

I've added https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/11
about the NEW queue.


Best,
Gard

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi Séb,

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 10:31:01AM +0100, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

As part of an upcoming survey that we are preparing, we plan to ask
Debian developers to rank, by order of importance, the most popular
ideas of improvements for Debian.

thanks for doing this! I'm curious for the results...

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

what timeline do you have in mind for this, as in, until when should these ideas be filed?



--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

The vision of self driving cars is nothing compared to the vision of no cars at all.

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Holger Levsen <holger@layer-acht.org> writes:

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important
projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your
ideas here by replying to this email, but it would be interesting to
file them as new issues in the "grow-your-ideas" project and then
reply here pointing to your new issue:
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

what timeline do you have in mind for this, as in, until when should
these ideas be filed?

We were thinking of sending the survey itself in about 2 weeks, so
that'd be the timeline for your ideas to appear in there.

Cheers,

--
Seb

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 12:19:25PM +0100, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

We were thinking of sending the survey itself in about 2 weeks, so
that'd be the timeline for your ideas to appear in there.

ah, cool, thanks.


--
cheers,
Holger

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
⠈⠳⣄

If nothing saves us from death, may love at least save us from life.

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On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 10:31:01AM +0100, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

As part of an upcoming survey that we are preparing, we plan to ask
Debian developers to rank, by order of importance, the most popular
ideas of improvements for Debian.

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

I have raised https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/15

# The problem

If I had a magic wand, I would like to resolve the situation around
official instances of packaged servers being unable to dogfood their
packaging work. I think this sends the wrong message as "If it's not
good enough for Debian to use, why should I?".

# Actual situation

From what I've noticed in DebConf talks, it's explained by the fact the
service maintainers do not have root access on DSA machines. This leads
to either using upstream installation methods or deploying to non-DSA
machines. It seems to me that this is either a solved problem, or can be
made so, given it's similar to University provided computing resources.

# Expected situation

For (a simplified) example that I'm familiar with, matrix.debian.social
should be as trivial as `apt install matrix-synapse` plus a config file.
Going by the existing docs on apache vhosts and email, one possible
interface would be:

echo matrix-synapse >> /srv/foo.debian.org/packages/install
vi /srv/foo.debian.org/packages/etc/matrix-synapse/conf.d/social.yaml
sudo -u foo package-setup foo.debian.org

The permitted packages and config paths could even be managed by a
whitelist under the control of DSA to prevent a complete wildwest. The important thing is that a service owner can make (certain) direct
changes without having to co-ordinate DSA approval.

# Additional information

I first wrote directly to debian-admin but that list isn't publicly
archived, so I'll only paraphrase the response I got:

* Installation + configuration can have a risk of privilege escalation
* DSA might be happy with MRs to the puppet setup for the simple cases
* There is no external testing on the current puppet code, holding back
collaboration by non-DSA
* There have been small experiments with containerisation (IMO, that's
abandoning the strength of Debian's *integration*)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Phil Morrell wrote:

I have raised https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/15

Thanks for this, but this issue like a few others that have been filed do describe problems but fail to provide "project/improvement ideas". We are
good at figuring out what's sub-optimal but we are not good at proposing solutions and implementing them.

With the Freexian funding, I want to help find time/people to implement
(some of) them but it will be hard to spend the money if we don't have
people willing to spend brain cycles to figure out how we should fix all
those issues.

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, Jan 26, 2022 at 01:35:51PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

On Tue, 25 Jan 2022, Phil Morrell wrote:

I have raised https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/15

Thanks for this, but this issue like a few others that have been filed do describe problems but fail to provide "project/improvement ideas". We are good at figuring out what's sub-optimal but we are not good at proposing solutions and implementing them.

I completely agree with that limitation for Freexian funding, but this
thread asked to rank "What are the most important projects that Debian
ought to work on?" as a distinct question from "which projects are fully spec'ed enough to apply for Freexian funding". They are certainly
projects that could inspire working groups, or guage support for certain
team's ideas from the wider DDs that warrant looking into further,
potentially culminating in a concrete application for funding. It's
offputting to start a new high-impact project before even knowing if
anyone other than yourself would appreciate it being part of Debian.

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

I have filed https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/18
which states this:

# Debian should provide high quality ansible roles (and/or salt formulas, etc.)

## The problem

In the modern world, we don't configure services with debconf but with
tools like ansible, puppet, salt, etc. All those tools have some sort of external repositories where users can share the automation that they
created but most of them share some common issues:

- there's few review and the quality is thus varying
- you often have multiple implementations to configure the same service
- you have no guaranty of maintenance over time
- the lack of standardization hurts when you try to combine multiple of those automations
- they might not have been tested on Debian

## Expected situation

Debian is very good at creating high-quality policies and applying them consistently, and then maintaining the result over time.

Thus Debian should include in its goals to provide high quality ansible
roles (and/or salt formulas, etc.) that can be used to configure the
services that you would install with packages from the Debian OS. This
would require defining an "Ansible policy" to dictate how those roles
should work (how variables are named, how you feed data, etc.).

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi,

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

I filed https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/20 which states:

We should trim the base system to be more container friendly

# The problem

Our base system is too big: building containers on top of Debian ends up
with huge containers even for trivial applications.

# Actual situation

Current Debian docker images are more than 50Mb compressed for the normal variant, about 30Mb compressed for the slim variant. While it will never
be possible to reach the size of alpine (3Mb compressed), we can do much
better than this.

# Expected situation

We trim down our base system to get rid of perl and other parts that are
taking lots of space without adding any real value. We replace perl
scripts with C applications, we move bash out of the essential set, etc.

We end up with a much smaller docker images and Debian becomes more
popular to build containers thanks to its vast collection of packages.

This would also helps to reduce the footprint of Debian for VM/cloud
servers, for embedded systems, etc.

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

I have filed https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/21
which states:

Better infrastructure to manage transitions

# The problem

It's too much manual work to handle a big transition.

# Actual workflow

When you introduce a new major upstream version, you often have to handle
a transition because (many) other packages have to be updated to cope with
that new version. Ideally, you do a mass-rebuild of the reverse
dependencies (build- and runtime-dependencies) and you run their
autopkgtest to ensure that they are still working.

If you are a very good citizen, you might use `ratt` to do the rebuilds
and you might upload the package to experimental to figure out with ci.debian.net if you break other packages. But more likely you don't know
about those, or you decide that you don't have the computer resources to
run those, and you do nothing (except possibly filing bugs or sending
mails to ask other maintainers to test their packages with your updated package).

At some point, you upload your package because you decided that you left
enough time for others to fix their packages and you end up breaking their packages... at least the bug will be raised to release critical and the
package will either be fixed or removed, which should eventually allow
your package to migrate to testing.

# Expected workflow

1. You upload the new version as usual, dak detects that it's breaking
many packages and it thus decides to put the package in a dedicated
package repository (think PPA) that will be used to handle the transition.

2. The required-binNMU are triggered and the resulting binaries are
uploaded in the PPA.

3. The failing rebuilds appear in the dedicated transition tracker.

4. The failing autopkgtest appear in the dedicated transition tracker.

5. You click on a button to submit all the bug reports for the failing
rebuilds and failing autopkgtest. The corresponding bugs and their status
automatically show up in the transition tracker.

6. After a while, most of the bugs have been fixed and the transition
tracker is looking much better. The system did automatically test the
newest versions that were uploaded to unstable. The binNUM have been
updated as well for the packages that have been updated in parallel.

7. That said the number of broken packages is still too high for your
limited time, so you decide to ask for help to other team members.
Together you manage to review all the failures. Sometimes you provide a
fix and record the associated merge request in the system. Sometimes you
decide to ignore the issue because it's better to remove the package and
you add a note explaining this.

8. When you're done, the release team takes a look at your transition
tracker, and gives you the green light to go ahead, you finalize all the
uploads to the PPA for the packages that had a pending merge requests and
you click on a button that uploads all the packages from the PPA directly
to unstable.

9. All the packages migrate to testing in a few days.

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

However, there's no easy way to identify what are the most popular ideas
of improvements that Debian ought to make. We know of the
"grow-your-ideas" project on Salsa, but it's far from exhaustive:

I spent a couple of hours to put my own wishes in the system. If you
support those improvement ideas, please up-vote them:

* Better infrastructure to manage transitions:
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/21

* We should trim the base system to be more container friendly
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/20

* Unified workflow for package review
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/19

* Debian should provide high quality ansible roles (and/or salt formulas, etc.)
https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/18


There are certainly more important ideas that are not recorded there
yet but I leave that up to others to file them if they care about
those:

- interactive (read-write) web-frontend for bugs.debian.org

- the Maintainer/Uploaders listing in debian/control should be replaced
with something more dynamic/fluid, representing better the kind of
commitments that each of us makes towards a given package (and the kind
of control that we ask in exchange)

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On തി, ജനു 24 2022 at 10:31:01 രാവിലെ +0100
+0100, Sébastien Delafond <seb@debian.org> wrote:

Hello,

As part of an upcoming survey that we are preparing, we plan to ask
Debian developers to rank, by order of importance, the most popular
ideas of improvements for Debian.

However, there's no easy way to identify what are the most popular
ideas
of improvements that Debian ought to make. We know of the
"grow-your-ideas" project on Salsa, but it's far from exhaustive:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important
projects/improvements
that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying
to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

I have added an idea to create unstable-proposed-updates for use during
freeze to avoid reuploading to unstable from experimental after freeze.

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/25

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 10:31:01AM +0100, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to
this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new
issue:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

I've added "We should have a default standard packaging workflow": https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/24

There's been some good discussion in this direction a few years ago, and
it never went as far as I'd have liked.


Enrico

--
GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 03:23:38PM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:

That's where you come into play: it would be nice if you could share
what are — according to you — the most important projects/improvements that Debian ought to make. You can share your ideas here by replying to this email, but it would be interesting to file them as new issues in
the "grow-your-ideas" project and then reply here pointing to your new issue:

https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues

I've added "We should have a default standard packaging workflow": https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/24

This should include ideas what to do with resignations that will follow.

--
WBR, wRAR

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 06:53:49PM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:

I've added "We should have a default standard packaging workflow": https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/24

This should include ideas what to do with resignations that will follow.

Why would one decide to resign based on a standard for a default that
nobody is required to follow?

I'm talking about suggesting a widely accepted default for people who
would love to have a widely accepted default suggested instead of
needing to figuring out a workflow from lots of conflicting tutorials.

I'm not talking about mandating the way everyone has to do their work in Debian.

Eh, if it's just for new people who don't know which workflow to use then
fine, it's a good idea, but the scope of that is quite narrow and doesn't
even help the second point in "This impacts" ("every package I need to
change is set up in a different way!").


--
WBR, wRAR

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 09:55:24PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:

I've added "We should have a default standard packaging workflow": https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/24

This should include ideas what to do with resignations that will follow.

Why would one decide to resign based on a standard for a default that
nobody is required to follow?

I'm talking about suggesting a widely accepted default for people who
would love to have a widely accepted default suggested instead of
needing to figuring out a workflow from lots of conflicting tutorials.

I'm not talking about mandating the way everyone has to do their work in Debian.


Enrico

--
GPG key: 4096R/634F4BD1E7AD5568 2009-05-08 Enrico Zini <enrico@enricozini.org>

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
provide build in easy feedback-communications to digest, collect,
analyze user's needs and progress from there

(more security, stability and faster boot is laways better X-D (in that
order))

aka: what is REALLY needed (comes per installed per default) and what is optional/can be installed by user later

imho the minimalistic approach is my favorite: have as little software installed/running as possible

and then gradually add stuff as needed

to gradually improof the OS in a user-centric way

right now pretty happy with Debian 10 and 11 + MATE 2 Desktop (not as minimalistic as xfce but not as bloated as Ubuntu Desktop X-D)

and usually without a lot of tinkering it works out of the box on most
hardware


<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
<p>
</p>
<div class="moz-text-flowed" style="font-family: -moz-fixed;
font-size: 12px;" lang="x-unicode">provide build in easy
feedback-communications to digest, collect, analyze user's needs
and progress from there
<br>
<br>
(more security, stability and faster boot is laways better X-D (in
that order))
<br>
<br>
aka: what is REALLY needed (comes per installed per default) and
what is optional/can be installed by user later
<br>
<br>
imho the minimalistic approach is my favorite: have as little
software installed/running as possible
<br>
<br>
and then gradually add stuff as needed
<br>
<br>
to gradually improof the OS in a user-centric way
<br>
<br>
right now pretty happy with Debian 10 and 11 + MATE 2 Desktop (not
as minimalistic as xfce but not as bloated as Ubuntu Desktop X-D)
<br>
<br>
and usually without a lot of tinkering it works out of the box on
most hardware
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
</body>
</html>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 12:07:24PM +0100, dude wrote:

provide build in easy feedback-communications to digest, collect, analyze user's needs and progress from there

(more security, stability and faster boot is laways better X-D (in that order))

aka: what is REALLY needed (comes per installed per default) and what is optional/can be installed by user later

imho the minimalistic approach is my favorite: have as little software installed/running as possible

and then gradually add stuff as needed

to gradually improof the OS in a user-centric way

right now pretty happy with Debian 10 and 11 + MATE 2 Desktop (not as minimalistic as xfce but not as bloated as Ubuntu Desktop X-D)

and usually without a lot of tinkering it works out of the box on most hardware

This isn't related to this thread.

--
WBR, wRAR

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Andrey" == Andrey Rahmatullin <wrar@debian.org> writes:

Andrey> On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 06:53:49PM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
>> > > I've added "We should have a default standard packaging
>> workflow": > >
>> https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/24 >
>> This should include ideas what to do with resignations that will
>> follow.
>>
>> Why would one decide to resign based on a standard for a default
>> that nobody is required to follow?
>>
>> I'm talking about suggesting a widely accepted default for people
>> who would love to have a widely accepted default suggested
>> instead of needing to figuring out a workflow from lots of
>> conflicting tutorials.
>>
>> I'm not talking about mandating the way everyone has to do their
>> work in Debian.
Andrey> Eh, if it's just for new people who don't know which
Andrey> workflow to use then fine, it's a good idea, but the scope
Andrey> of that is quite narrow and doesn't even help the second
Andrey> point in "This impacts" ("every package I need to change is
Andrey> set up in a different way!").

Over time, if people see the value in migrating toward something more
people understand, the probability of people seeing the value and
migrating increases.
Especially in this community, there is still value in suggestions people
can optionally follow.
We've seen such suggestions get adopted organically time and time again,
and it does make things easier.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --I3rPFAyDE7SUBFUNoRkKCeAebbbixsxHP
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
Content-Language: en-US
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

On 2/10/22 6:55 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:

Over time, if people see the value in migrating toward something more
people understand, the probability of people seeing the value and
migrating increases.

What we are absolutely missing is a workflow for software that does not
have well-defined releases that are supported by upstream, or that
release through separate packaging infrastructure with a different
feature set than ours, but this is largely not a technical problem, but
a social one.

The technical side is easy: we already know how to ship arbitrary
snapshots from git, and for situations like in npm where multiple version-locked dependencies might need to be co-installable, we can
probably think of a mapping onto package names that allows us to do so.

On the social side, our users have a certain expectation of support for
a stable release that we have cultivated over the years, and this has
usually been with explicit help from upstream, because we can neither
expect packagers to also become upstream maintainers for out-of-support versions nor users to update to unstable or experimental versions before reporting a problem.

Users of the npm ecosystem have different expectations than traditional
Debian users: their infrastructure is online-only, fast-paced, support
for older versions is less expected, but dependencies on older versions
can be expressed and will be honoured.

Resolving this conflict will require more than a change in workflow, and
I'd argue that packages where this conflict does not exist are already
well served with the two major existing workflows ("version control in
the Debian archive" and "version control in git, with salsa").

Simon


--I3rPFAyDE7SUBFUNoRkKCeAebbbixsxHP--

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Tue, 2022-02-08 at 15:57 +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:

We should trim the base system to be more container friendly

IIRC Helmut Grohne etc have already been working on this for years:

https://wiki.debian.org/Proposals/EssentialOnDiet

--
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hello,

On Mon, 24 Jan 2022, Sébastien Delafond wrote:

As part of an upcoming survey that we are preparing, we plan to ask
Debian developers to rank, by order of importance, the most popular
ideas of improvements for Debian.

So I have finalized the question with all the choices. Given the large
number of choices, I opted to not require a ranking but to give a mark
between 0 to 10 to evaluate the importance of the idea: https://salsa.debian.org/freexian-team/misc-drafts/-/commit/b0073480657fae493df905821ee01b4ca3547c7f

It looks like this:

----
For each of the ideas listed below, please rate its importance for Debian
from 1 (not important at all) to 10 (very important). If you are against
the idea, please rate it with 0 (unacceptable).

Ideas related to Debian's purpose:
* [Debian should track issues in user stories and not just packages](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/29)
* [Debian should provide high quality ansible roles (and/or salt formulas, etc.)](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/18)

Ideas related to packaging workflows:
* [Debian should allow to upload packages by pushing a signed git tag](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/9)
* [Debian should provide personal/extra package repositories for Debian developers/teams](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/6)
* [Debian should have a default standard packaging workflow](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/24)
* [Debian should rethink/clarify the objectives of the NEW queue review](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/11)
* [Debian should create a unified workflow for package review and use it everywhere applicable](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/19)
* [Debian should migrate packages without any VCS into salsa](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/10)
* [Debian should provide a better infrastructure to manage transitions](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/21)

Ideas of other organizational changes:
* [Debian should build a packaging team to maintain vital system components](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/30)
* [Debian should publicly support usage of the testing release](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/12)
* [Debian should have a unstable-proposed-updates suite for use during freeze](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/25)
* [Debian should formalize its reimbursement process to reduce extra paperwork](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/1)

Ideas of technical changes:
* [Debian should make it easy for blends and derivatives to build and host images](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/27)
* [Debian should make it easy to fork packages and/or the distribution](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/23)
* [Debian should further trim the base system for the benefits of containers and embedded systems](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/20)
* [Debian should complete the merged-/usr transition](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/22)
* [Debian should switch wiki.debian.org from MoinMoin to Mediawiki](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/2)
* [ports.debian.org should be managed with dak and britney](https://salsa.debian.org/debian/grow-your-ideas/-/issues/5)

Note that all the ideas are linked to a corresponding issue in the "grow your ideas" project. Please consider upvoting the ideas there that you
consider worthwhile to pursue. You do that by clicking the "thumbs up"
button at the top of each issue on salsa.debian.org.
----

I have left out a few low-impact and really uncontroversial ideas (like
"port UDD to Python 3", we all agree on that, it's more a matter of
finding the right volunteer).

If you think I badly rephrased some of the ideas in there, please let me
know. Feel free to suggest improvements by mail reply or with a MR here: https://salsa.debian.org/freexian-team/misc-drafts/

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ The Debian Handbook: https://debian-handbook.info/get/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ Debian Long Term Support: https://deb.li/LTS

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Am Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 04:46:23PM +0100 schrieb Raphael Hertzog:

I have left out a few low-impact and really uncontroversial ideas (like
"port UDD to Python 3", we all agree on that, it's more a matter of
finding the right volunteer).

Since I added the idea I'd like to confirm that I agree that this is uncontroversal. I understood the initial idea like a way to find the
right volunteer for certain tasks. ;-)

Thanks a lot for this effort

Andreas.

--
http://fam-tille.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2022, Andreas Tille wrote:

Am Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 04:46:23PM +0100 schrieb Raphael Hertzog:

I have left out a few low-impact and really uncontroversial ideas (like "port UDD to Python 3", we all agree on that, it's more a matter of
finding the right volunteer).

Since I added the idea I'd like to confirm that I agree that this is uncontroversal. I understood the initial idea like a way to find the
right volunteer for certain tasks. ;-)

I certainly hope that having useful widely-agreed tasks listed can help
to find volunteers.

But for the survey, I am more interested in big ideas that have been
floating around for a while and that nobody tackled. The idea is to try
to get a sense of which ideas have the most support and which projects
to prioritize when it comes to the use of the Freexian funding for
instance.

For your specific need, I would suggest to try to reach out to the Python
team and point out that there's useful Python development work to be done,
and if being funded for that work helps them to allocate the required
time, then they should submit a project proposal and request a grant via https://salsa.debian.org/freexian-team/project-funding/

Cheers,
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Raphaël Hertzog <hertzog@debian.org>
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