• Re: Consensus on closing old bugs

    From Santiago Vila@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 6 12:00:02 2023
    El 6/2/23 a las 11:26, Brian Thompson escribió:
    I understand that the usual way to close out bug reports is having the original author do it themselves. What's the policy on closing bug reports that haven't had activity in over 6 months?

    Let the maintainers handle their bugs.
    Old bugs should not be closed just because they are "old".

    For example, I have an open bug which is 26 years old:

    https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=5898

    and I don't see any reason to close it.

    Thanks.

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  • From Brian Thompson@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 6 04:26:31 2023
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    I understand that the usual way to close out bug reports is having the
    original author do it themselves. What's the policy on closing bug reports that haven't had activity in over 6 months?

    Specifically I am talking about the following:

    https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=1007922

    Sincerely,
    Brian

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  • From Brian Thompson@21:1/5 to Santiago Vila on Mon Feb 6 04:55:49 2023
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    On Mon, 2023-02-06 at 11:51 +0100, Santiago Vila wrote:
    Let the maintainers handle their bugs.
    Old bugs should not be closed just because they are "old".

    For example, I have an open bug which is 26 years old:

    https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=5898

    and I don't see any reason to close it.

    Fair enough. Thanks!

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  • From Tomas Pospisek@21:1/5 to Santiago Vila on Mon Feb 6 15:20:01 2023
    On 06.02.23 11:51, Santiago Vila wrote:
    El 6/2/23 a las 11:26, Brian Thompson escribió:
    I understand that the usual way to close out bug reports is having the
    original author do it themselves.  What's the policy on closing bug
    reports
    that haven't had activity in over 6 months?

    Let the maintainers handle their bugs.
    Old bugs should not be closed just because they are "old".

    For example, I have an open bug which is 26 years old:

    https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=5898

    and I don't see any reason to close it.

    However I'd like to put Santiago's reply into perspective (I am not contradicting him!):

    There's *a lot* of Debian packages that are not maintained very
    actively. Often when I report bugs against some package I will do a bit
    of triage as a "recompensation" for being allowed to report it and for
    the time the maintainer will have to invest in reading my bug report.

    So when I see f.ex. reports against versions of the package against old
    Debian releases, that are no longer supported where the last entry in
    the bug report is the maintainer asking a question that hasn't been
    replied to in years, then I go and close that bug report.

    I do explain why I am closing it (version not supported any more, there
    are more recent package versions where probably the bug was fixed (if
    that's really the case!), no reply from reporter, thus it's not expected
    that anything will ever come out of the report any more). And I am also explaining that closing the bug might be in error, and excusing myself
    if that would be the case and asking the reporter to please reopen the
    bug or to tell me then I will. That is because I can never fully know
    the context of the reporter and thus that bug might be important to the reporter (or the maintainer).

    All that said, I have never received negative feedback to these bug
    triages that I am occassionaly doing and am under the impression that
    the maintainers *do* appreciate someone going over their packages bugs
    from time to time and closing bugs that to the best of one's judgement
    will not be taken care of any more.

    I have to emphasize that the place that I am coming from is that I
    absolutely despise all the robots (f.ex. on github or in launchpad) that
    are roaming around and automatically closing (my!) old bugreports, since
    I have put effort in them and I feel my efforts get shat on when this
    occurs. So that's the angle I'm working from: I absolutely want to
    respect the bug reporter and his effort and possibly the importance
    she's attaching to to some problem that she is eperiencing or has
    experienced. Same for the maintainer that possibly wants to keep his
    package clean and bug-less and puts effort into the reports against his packages and cares even about old stuff that *still* doesn't work.

    In short, my advice:

    * please *do* triage other maintainer's bugs - after all Debian is a *collaborative* effort. It is very much appreciated (at least by me).
    * please put respect for the reporter and the maintainer and their
    efforts first before any other concerns such as efficiency

    Thanks for caring!
    *t

    PS: Dear reader please correct me or add to if what I'm arguing above is
    wrong.

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  • From Sam Hartman@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 6 18:10:01 2023
    "Tomas" == Tomas Pospisek <tpo2@sourcepole.ch> writes:

    Tomas> All that said, I have never received negative feedback to
    Tomas> these bug triages that I am occassionaly doing and am under
    Tomas> the impression that the maintainers *do* appreciate someone
    Tomas> going over their packages bugs from time to time and closing
    Tomas> bugs that to the best of one's judgement will not be taken
    Tomas> care of any more.

    Yes, and I certainly value this kind of triage both as a reporter and a maintainer.

    I think agreeing with both Tomas and Santiago, for me a big factor is
    the state of the bug.
    If a bug is waiting for a maintainer, let the maintainer deal with it.
    Most of us do not prefer to close bugs simply because they are old.
    But closing bugs with a moreinfo tag when information has not been
    provided in six months to a year is likely fine.
    So is asking for more info and adding a moreinfo tag when appropriate.

    It's even appropriate to ask if the bug still happens. If you have
    reason to believe it doesn't it is often appropriate to add a moreinfo
    tag in that situation.
    And then, on the next pass around if there has been no reply closing it.

    I think a significant fraction of maintainers frown on the idea of
    asking if a bug still happens simply because there's a new version and
    closing on no reply. The difference being whether you have reason to
    believe the bug might be fixed. I think Ubuntu assumes it probably was
    and a lot of Debian tends to assume it probably was not.
    But again, maintainers have a fair bit of flexibility, and the more
    lightly maintained/closer to salvaging a package is, the more it's
    appropriate for people doing QA work to get in and apply their own
    judgment.

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  • From Paul Wise@21:1/5 to Sam Hartman on Tue Feb 7 05:40:01 2023
    On Mon, 2023-02-06 at 10:07 -0700, Sam Hartman wrote:

    It's even appropriate to ask if the bug still happens.

    I'd like to see people asking that to put a slight amount of effort
    into reproducing the bug, especially if there are documented or obvious
    steps towards that. I recently encountered a maintainer who just asked
    if it still happens and said they would close it if there was no
    response, even though there was a simple path to reproducing it. So I
    did that even though I don't use the software any more and I found that
    the issue (but not the exact error) was still easily reproducible and
    replied documenting that it was and a more exact procedure for that.
    Perhaps the maintainer didn't have time for that individual bug or for
    the aggregate of bugs they were triaging though.

    --
    bye,
    pabs

    https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

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  • From Adrian Bunk@21:1/5 to Sam Hartman on Sat Feb 11 22:10:01 2023
    On Mon, Feb 06, 2023 at 10:07:59AM -0700, Sam Hartman wrote:
    ...
    Most of us do not prefer to close bugs simply because they are old.

    It creates angry users and no real benefits.

    But closing bugs with a moreinfo tag when information has not been
    provided in six months to a year is likely fine.

    Only if the bug closer is aware that the BTS does not Cc the submitter
    by default, and checks first whether the question was ever sent to the submitter (quite often it was not).

    So is asking for more info and adding a moreinfo tag when appropriate.

    It's even appropriate to ask if the bug still happens.
    ...

    I would consider it abusive behaviour if the person asking the user does
    not have the intention of trying to fix the bug if the answer is "yes".

    Our user might be spending hours or days trying to give a good reply,[1] expecting a serious attempt at fixing the bug in exchange for the effort.

    It is bad enough that we are often not good at trying to resolve bugs
    where users have sometimes spent considerable effort at writing a good
    bug report, but asking users to do pointless work would be horrible.

    cu
    Adrian

    [1] especially if asked "Does the problem still happen in unstable?",
    only a small minority of our users are using unstable

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  • From Holger Levsen@21:1/5 to Adrian Bunk on Mon Feb 13 11:40:01 2023
    On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 10:45:16PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
    On Mon, Feb 06, 2023 at 10:07:59AM -0700, Sam Hartman wrote:
    Most of us do not prefer to close bugs simply because they are old.
    It creates angry users and no real benefits.

    this is undoubtingly true for some bugs and users.

    for other bugs (and users) there will be no reply ever and unactionable bugs clutter the view and harm bug fixing.

    so I don't think there is a general rule and I also don't think asking
    "does this bug still apply?" is harmful, nor is closing very old bugs
    against ancient versions.


    --
    cheers,
    Holger

    ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
    ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ holger@(debian|reproducible-builds|layer-acht).org
    ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ OpenPGP: B8BF54137B09D35CF026FE9D 091AB856069AAA1C
    ⠈⠳⣄

    Every time you see the word "smart" used to describe a device, replace it with "surveillance." Surveillance watch. Surveillance streetlights. Surveillance oven. Surveillance toilet. Surveillance car. Surveillance city. (@mollyali)

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  • From Adrian Bunk@21:1/5 to Holger Levsen on Mon Feb 13 13:30:01 2023
    On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 10:33:51AM +0000, Holger Levsen wrote:
    On Sat, Feb 11, 2023 at 10:45:16PM +0200, Adrian Bunk wrote:
    On Mon, Feb 06, 2023 at 10:07:59AM -0700, Sam Hartman wrote:
    Most of us do not prefer to close bugs simply because they are old.
    It creates angry users and no real benefits.

    this is undoubtingly true for some bugs and users.

    for other bugs (and users) there will be no reply ever and unactionable bugs clutter the view and harm bug fixing.

    so I don't think there is a general rule and I also don't think asking
    "does this bug still apply?" is harmful,
    ...

    An egoistic "bugs clutter the view" developer view that ignores that
    there are humans at the other end of the bugs is harmful.

    I remember being pretty pissed when in a different open source project
    some abuser asked me every 6-12 months whether I can still reproduce
    the problem with the latest upstream version, each time I spent several
    hours for confirming it, but this abuser never bothered to follow up on
    that after I did the work that was requested from me.

    Regarding your "harm bug fixing": I do not have the impression that
    there is much intersection between the people who are eager to close
    as many bugs as possible without even looking at them, and the people
    who are actually making Debian better by fixing bugs.

    If a developer has a problem with bugs cluttering the view, it is of
    course fine to use a different (UDD) view if this is more productive.
    But this does not require touching bugs, which is an interactions with
    our users and should be handled accordingly.

    cheers,
    Holger

    cu
    Adrian

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Adrian Bunk on Mon Feb 13 17:10:01 2023
    Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:

    I remember being pretty pissed when in a different open source project
    some abuser asked me every 6-12 months whether I can still reproduce the problem with the latest upstream version, each time I spent several
    hours for confirming it, but this abuser never bothered to follow up on
    that after I did the work that was requested from me.

    Somewhere along the line, the free software world, particularly around
    larger projects, seems to have become convinced that bug triage is a good
    way to become involved in a project as a volunteer (maybe! true in some circumstances!), and separately has defined bug triage as closing old bugs (sort of! true if they no longer apply!). Neither of these are entirely unreasonable, or put another way both of these are true in specific
    situations. But they interact very poorly: people who don't know the
    project or the community very well are taught to tackle "bug triage" as
    their first project without good instructions, and naturally gravitate
    towards closing as many bugs as possible because this seems useful.

    (And, of course, as pointed out earlier in the thread, a lot of projects
    have now automated this and just autoclose all of their bugs, which is certainly a choice. I personally have given up reporting bugs against
    anything in the Kubernetes ecosystem since it's pointless; I'm just
    talking to an autoclose bot, and it's an unsatisfying conversation.)

    That said, I also agree with something Ian has said in the past about
    bugs: the function of bugs for volunteer free software projects is
    primarily as an aid to development and secondarily as type of user-facing documentation (here are things known to not work and possibly some workarounds). If they don't serve either of those purposes, and
    particularly if they get in the way of improving the software rather than provide a guide for how the software should be improved, they're not worth keeping around solely because a user did encounter that problem at some
    point.

    So in short I agree with Holger: it really depends. It's rude to ask
    someone to do a bunch of work when you have no intention of following
    through on that work, which happens a lot when new volunteers do bug
    triage without the skills required to follow up on the responses to that triage. But also if you're never going to work on a bug and you don't
    think it serves any documentation purpose, it's okay to close it as
    wontfix and arguably better communication to the bug reporter than leaving
    it open and creating the illusion that you might fix it some day.

    There are a lot of really low-quality bugs out there. Not as many in
    Debian because our users tend to be a bit more sophisticated, but if
    you've ever watched a reasonably widely-used package in Launchpad for a
    while, you'll see an endless series of bugs that are clearly some
    unrelated system problem, a corrupt installation, or just the user
    completely not understanding what they're doing. The more prominent the package and the larger the unsophisticated user base, the more aggressive
    you have to be about closing bugs if you want the open bug list to be a
    useful artifact for guiding development.

    A bug is a communication channel between the user, the maintainer, and
    other users. Like most other forms of communication, it's neither
    inherently good nor inherently bad. It doesn't make sense to keep all
    bugs any more than it makes sense to respond to every email message. It's
    a nuanced social judgment.

    Or one can just use an autoclose bot, I guess, which is basically the equivalent of one of those email autoreplies that says "this mailbox is unattended and no one will ever read your email." :) And, to be honest,
    if that's the reality of the situation, maybe better to know than not!

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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  • From Adrian Bunk@21:1/5 to Russ Allbery on Mon Feb 13 18:20:01 2023
    On Mon, Feb 13, 2023 at 08:05:50AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
    ...
    So in short I agree with Holger: it really depends. It's rude to ask
    someone to do a bunch of work when you have no intention of following
    through on that work, which happens a lot when new volunteers do bug
    triage without the skills required to follow up on the responses to that triage. But also if you're never going to work on a bug and you don't
    think it serves any documentation purpose, it's okay to close it as
    wontfix and arguably better communication to the bug reporter than leaving
    it open and creating the illusion that you might fix it some day.

    A maintainer closing a bug based on its contents is quite different from
    "close bugs simply because they are old".

    There is a certain stupidity if a (human or nonhuman) bot blindly asks
    the submitter whether the "typo in the manpage" bug is still reproducible,
    or closes it simply because it is old.

    How a maintainer deals with "systemd: Please port to Hurd" kind of bugs
    is a different topic.

    ...
    The more prominent the
    package and the larger the unsophisticated user base, the more aggressive
    you have to be about closing bugs if you want the open bug list to be a useful artifact for guiding development.
    ...

    I would say the typical Debian approach in such situations tends to be
    to optionally look at older bugs once when you adopt a package or join
    the packaging team, and afterwards only react to bug email.

    Or one can just use an autoclose bot, I guess, which is basically the equivalent of one of those email autoreplies that says "this mailbox is unattended and no one will ever read your email." :) And, to be honest,
    if that's the reality of the situation, maybe better to know than not!

    I am sometimes getting an email from the BTS that this "typo in the manpage" bug I reported 20 years ago has just been fixed in the "New maintainer"
    upload of a package.

    When working on orphaned packages or doing NMUs, it is also often useful
    for me to see the amount/age/contents of bugs in a package as an
    indication in what state it is.

    cu
    Adrian

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  • From Russ Allbery@21:1/5 to Adrian Bunk on Mon Feb 13 19:20:02 2023
    Adrian Bunk <bunk@debian.org> writes:

    I am sometimes getting an email from the BTS that this "typo in the
    manpage" bug I reported 20 years ago has just been fixed in the "New maintainer" upload of a package.

    When working on orphaned packages or doing NMUs, it is also often useful
    for me to see the amount/age/contents of bugs in a package as an
    indication in what state it is.

    Yes, I completely agree with this. When adopting an old, unloved package, closing a bunch of old bugs (by fixing them, usually) is one of the most satisfying and enjoyable parts of the work. Don't rob new maintainers of
    that joy by gratuitously closing bugs unless you're analyzing them and
    making a content-based decision!

    Also, it's useful to have a bunch of open ancient bugs as an indicator
    that the package probably could use more love (although this is a bit overloaded with "the package gets lots of love but is so popular that
    there are a ton of bugs of dubious quality that no one is looking at,"
    which is less useful as an indicator).

    --
    Russ Allbery (rra@debian.org) <https://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>

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