• Removal of hppa support

    From John Paul Adrian Glaubitz@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 25 20:40:02 2020
    Hi Andy!

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].

    I would like to protest this move as it was made without coordination
    with the hppa porters in Debian. While Debian does not have hppa as a
    release architecture, it's still a fully maintained port with multiple developers working on it and also a userbase.

    So, unless there is a good reason for hppa to be removed, I would like
    to ask for hppa support to be reinstated in guile. If there are any issues
    that need to be worked on, please let us know. We are also regularly
    building guile on hppa [2, 3].

    Thanks,
    Adrian

    [1] http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guile.git/commit/?id=ced3c42deeb853d508b2ebc3cd915d494aca50d0
    [2] https://buildd.debian.org/status/logs.php?pkg=guile-2.2&arch=hppa
    [3] https://buildd.debian.org/status/logs.php?pkg=guile-2.0&arch=hppa

    --
    .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
    : :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
    `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
    `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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  • From John David Anglin@21:1/5 to John Paul Adrian Glaubitz on Sat Jan 25 20:50:02 2020
    On 2020-01-25 2:32 p.m., John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
    I would like to protest this move as it was made without coordination
    with the hppa porters in Debian. While Debian does not have hppa as a
    release architecture, it's still a fully maintained port with multiple developers working on it and also a userbase.
    I'll second that.  As can be seen from Adrian's links, there are no major issues in building
    guile on hppa linux:

    I also build it from time to time on hpux11.11.

    Regards,
    Dave Anglin

    --
    John David Anglin dave.anglin@bell.net

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  • From William ML Leslie@21:1/5 to glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de on Sun Jan 26 06:50:01 2020
    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, < glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

    Hi Andy!

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].


    This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for the
    jit.

    As an ia64 user, i'm a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don't run any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.



    <div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, &lt;<a href="mailto:glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de">glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote
    class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Andy!<br>

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for the jit.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="
    auto">As an ia64 user, i&#39;m a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don&#39;t run any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:
    1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
    </blockquote></div></div></div>

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  • From William ML Leslie@21:1/5 to william.leslie.ttg@gmail.com on Sun Jan 26 07:30:01 2020
    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 4:46 pm William ML Leslie, <
    william.leslie.ttg@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, < glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

    Hi Andy!

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].


    This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for the jit.

    As an ia64 user, i'm a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don't run any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.



    Maybe /lost/ is the wrong word. We won't be benefitting from the work the lightning team have done in supporting hacker-friendly architectures in
    guile 3. This jit is completely new.



    <div dir="auto"><div><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 4:46 pm William ML Leslie, &lt;<a href="mailto:william.leslie.ttg@gmail.com">william.leslie.ttg@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote
    class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, &lt;<a href="mailto:glaubitz@
    physik.fu-berlin.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi Andy!<br>

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for the jit.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="
    auto">As an ia64 user, i&#39;m a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don&#39;t run any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Maybe /lost/
    is the wrong word. We won&#39;t be benefitting from the work the lightning team have done in supporting hacker-friendly architectures in guile 3. This jit is completely new.</div><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote"
    style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
    </blockquote></div></div></div>
    </blockquote></div></div></div>

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  • From John Paul Adrian Glaubitz@21:1/5 to William ML Leslie on Sun Jan 26 11:00:02 2020
    Hi!

    On 1/26/20 6:46 AM, William ML Leslie wrote:
    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de <mailto:glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de>> wrote:

    Hi Andy!

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].


    This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for the jit.

    I'm aware of this. But unless the code was unmaintainable or broken, I don't see
    a reason for removing it.

    Debian (and NetBSD) still support hppa perfectly fine so the code is actually being compiled, used and test-run. And guile has been building fine on Debian/hppa.

    Access to hppa machines for testing and bug fixing is also available through Debian.

    As an ia64 user, i'm a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don't run any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.

    Are you using Debian's ia64 port? We recently resurrected it ;).

    Adrian

    --
    .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
    : :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
    `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
    `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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  • From William ML Leslie@21:1/5 to glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de on Sun Jan 26 13:30:02 2020
    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020 at 20:51, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

    Hi!

    On 1/26/20 6:46 AM, William ML Leslie wrote:
    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de <mailto:glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de>> wrote:

    Hi Andy!

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].


    This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for the jit.

    I'm aware of this. But unless the code was unmaintainable or broken, I don't see
    a reason for removing it.


    The only thing Wingo wrote publicly about this seems to be:

    I ported some of the existing GNU Lightning backends over to Lightening... I deleted the backends for Itanium, HPPA, Alpha, and SPARC; they have no Debian ports and there is no situation in which I can afford to do QA on them. [0]

    I haven't pushed to see what conditions would need to change to make
    JIT support on these architectures desirable for the core developers.
    Thoughts, Andy? Ludo?

    Debian (and NetBSD) still support hppa perfectly fine so the code is actually being compiled, used and test-run. And guile has been building fine on Debian/hppa.

    Access to hppa machines for testing and bug fixing is also available through Debian.

    As an ia64 user, i'm a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don't run any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.

    Are you using Debian's ia64 port? We recently resurrected it ;).


    Yes I am - I saw that. Thank you for all your hard work on it!

    I was recently trying to figure out the issue with the vim-tiny tests
    and I broke my ssh access: I failed to realise why setting up a chroot
    was so important when you only have access to Sid. It is quite a bit
    of work to get iLO access in my office so I've been putting it off
    until I have a couple of days clear to look into it, and I've been
    working on replacing the ancient tech needed to speak to early iLO
    cards (a java6 browser plugin and old SSL with no hostname
    verification).

    It's not my first debian-ports fun either - I ran a hurd-i386 box for
    over a decade without issue.

    [0] http://wingolog.org/archives/2019/05/24/lightening-run-time-code-generation

    --
    William Leslie

    Notice:
    Likely much of this email is, by the nature of copyright, covered
    under copyright law. You absolutely MAY reproduce any part of it in
    accordance with the copyright law of the nation you are reading this
    in. Any attempt to DENY YOU THOSE RIGHTS would be illegal without
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  • From John Paul Adrian Glaubitz@21:1/5 to William ML Leslie on Sun Jan 26 14:40:01 2020
    On 1/26/20 1:21 PM, William ML Leslie wrote:
    The only thing Wingo wrote publicly about this seems to be:

    I ported some of the existing GNU Lightning backends over to Lightening... I deleted the backends for Itanium, HPPA, Alpha, and SPARC; they have no Debian ports and there is no situation in which I can afford to do QA on them. [0]

    I haven't pushed to see what conditions would need to change to make
    JIT support on these architectures desirable for the core developers. Thoughts, Andy? Ludo?

    They have no Debian ports?

    https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/2019-07-16/

    https://buildd.debian.org/status/package.php?p=guile-2.2&suite=sid

    It would have been nice if anyone from upstream had reached out to us.

    The lack of communication is rather disappointing.

    Debian (and NetBSD) still support hppa perfectly fine so the code is actually
    being compiled, used and test-run. And guile has been building fine on Debian/hppa.

    Access to hppa machines for testing and bug fixing is also available through Debian.

    As an ia64 user, i'm a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don't run any >>> performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.

    Are you using Debian's ia64 port? We recently resurrected it ;).


    Yes I am - I saw that. Thank you for all your hard work on it!

    You're welcome. We're always looking for more contributors.

    I was recently trying to figure out the issue with the vim-tiny tests
    and I broke my ssh access: I failed to realise why setting up a chroot
    was so important when you only have access to Sid. It is quite a bit
    of work to get iLO access in my office so I've been putting it off
    until I have a couple of days clear to look into it, and I've been
    working on replacing the ancient tech needed to speak to early iLO
    cards (a java6 browser plugin and old SSL with no hostname
    verification).

    Yeah. The vim testsuite issue affects multiple architectures.

    It's not my first debian-ports fun either - I ran a hurd-i386 box for
    over a decade without issue.

    Nice.

    Adrian

    --
    .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
    : :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
    `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
    `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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  • From John David Anglin@21:1/5 to John Paul Adrian Glaubitz on Sun Jan 26 17:00:02 2020
    On 2020-01-26 8:34 a.m., John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
    On 1/26/20 1:21 PM, William ML Leslie wrote:
    The only thing Wingo wrote publicly about this seems to be:

    I ported some of the existing GNU Lightning backends over to Lightening... I deleted the backends for Itanium, HPPA, Alpha, and SPARC; they have no Debian ports and there is no situation in which I can afford to do QA on them. [0]
    There is a porter box for hppa and it's free!

    I love this page: https://buildd.debian.org/status/architecture.php?a=hppa&suite=sid

    Dave

    --
    John David Anglin dave.anglin@bell.net

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  • From Andy Wingo@21:1/5 to William ML Leslie on Mon Jan 27 17:30:02 2020
    Hi :)

    On Sun 26 Jan 2020 07:19, William ML Leslie <william.leslie.ttg@gmail.com> writes:

    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 4:46 pm William ML Leslie, <william.leslie.ttg@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Sun, 26 Jan 2020, 8:20 am John Paul Adrian Glaubitz, <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

    I noticed that you recently purged hppa support from guile [1].

    This change does not remove hppa support from guile, only support for
    the jit.

    As an ia64 user, i'm a bit sad that we lost jit too - but i don't run
    any performance-sensitive guile jobs on that system.

    Maybe /lost/ is the wrong word. We won't be benefitting from the work
    the lightning team have done in supporting hacker-friendly
    architectures in guile 3. This jit is completely new.

    William is correct. HPPA support is not gone from Guile; and indeed
    it's good to hear from you :) I wasn't sure there were any IA64 users remaining.

    Initially in Guile I planned to use GNU Lightning, in part because of
    its great platform support. However it turned out to not be the right
    thing, and reluctantly I ended up doing something that was more like a
    rewrite than a refactor. In that context I personally don't have the
    budget to write the IA64 backend. So, Guile 3 still runs on IA64, just
    without JIT support.

    If someone would like to write an IA64 backend for Lightening, I would
    be happy to accept it :) The beginnings of one are there in the git
    history.

    Andy

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  • From John Paul Adrian Glaubitz@21:1/5 to Andy Wingo on Tue Feb 4 12:10:01 2020
    Hi!

    On 1/27/20 4:46 PM, Andy Wingo wrote:
    William is correct. HPPA support is not gone from Guile; and indeed
    it's good to hear from you :) I wasn't sure there were any IA64 users remaining.

    It fails to build from source on Debian hppa, however:

    https://buildd.debian.org/status/fetch.php?pkg=guile-3.0&arch=hppa&ver=3.0.0%2B1-1&stamp=1580702308&raw=0

    continuations.c: In function 'scm_dynthrow':
    continuations.c:326:5: error: too few arguments to function 'grow_stack'
    326 | grow_stack (cont);
    | ^~~~~~~~~~
    continuations.c:276:1: note: declared here
    276 | grow_stack (SCM cont, uint8_t *mra)
    | ^~~~~~~~~~

    I'm currently working on a patch.

    Initially in Guile I planned to use GNU Lightning, in part because of
    its great platform support. However it turned out to not be the right
    thing, and reluctantly I ended up doing something that was more like a rewrite than a refactor. In that context I personally don't have the
    budget to write the IA64 backend. So, Guile 3 still runs on IA64, just without JIT support.

    It also fails on ia64 at the moment:

    https://buildd.debian.org/status/fetch.php?pkg=guile-3.0&arch=ia64&ver=3.0.0%2B1-1&stamp=1580702151&raw=0

    continuations.c:146:23: error: missing binary operator before token "or"
    146 | # if !(defined __ia64 or defined __ia64__)
    | ^~

    I fixed the preprocessor conditional, but then I'm running into another
    issue:

    continuations.c: In function 'capture_auxiliary_stack':
    continuations.c:152:7: warning: implicit declaration of function 'getcontext' [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]
    152 | if (getcontext (&ctx) != 0)
    | ^~~~~~~~~~
    continuations.c:158:21: error: invalid type argument of '->' (have 'ucontext_t' {aka 'struct ucontext_t'})
    158 | top = (char *) ctx->uc_mcontext.sc_ar_bsp;
    | ^~
    continuations.c:167:26: error: 'scm_thread' {aka 'struct scm_thread'} has no member named 'auxiliary_stack_base'
    167 | top - (char *) thread->auxiliary_stack_base;
    | ^~
    continuations.c:171:48: error: 'scm_thread' {aka 'struct scm_thread'} has no member named 'auxiliary_stack_base'
    171 | memcpy (continuation->auxiliary_stack, thread->auxiliary_stack_base,
    | ^~
    continuations.c: In function 'restore_auxiliary_stack':
    continuations.c:180:17: error: 'scm_thread' {aka 'struct scm_thread'} has no member named 'auxiliary_stack_base'
    180 | memcpy (thread->auxiliary_stack_base, continuation->auxiliary_stack,
    | ^~

    Working on a patch here as well.

    If someone would like to write an IA64 backend for Lightening, I would
    be happy to accept it :) The beginnings of one are there in the git
    history.

    Ok. I assume that applies to alpha, hppa, m68k, powerpc*, riscv*, sparc* as well.

    Adrian

    --
    .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
    : :' : Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
    `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
    `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

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  • From Andy Wingo@21:1/5 to John Paul Adrian Glaubitz on Tue Feb 4 12:50:01 2020
    Greets,

    On Tue 04 Feb 2020 12:02, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de> writes:

    On 1/27/20 4:46 PM, Andy Wingo wrote:
    William is correct. HPPA support is not gone from Guile; and indeed
    it's good to hear from you :) I wasn't sure there were any IA64 users
    remaining.

    It fails to build from source on Debian hppa, however:

    Thanks for these reports and apologies for the breakages. Looking
    forward to the patches.

    I fixed the preprocessor conditional, but then I'm running into another issue:

    continuations.c: In function 'capture_auxiliary_stack': continuations.c:152:7: warning: implicit declaration of function 'getcontext' [-Wimplicit-function-declaration]

    Probably a missing include for ucontext.h.

    If someone would like to write an IA64 backend for Lightening, I would
    be happy to accept it :) The beginnings of one are there in the git
    history.

    Ok. I assume that applies to alpha, hppa, m68k, powerpc*, riscv*, sparc* as well.

    Yes indeed!

    Andy

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