Hi,

I'd like to officially contact all our teams to learn about potential
issues that might affect your work. I would love to learn how you
organise / share your workload. If you do some regular meetings - be it
on IRC, video conference or whatever I'm interested in joining one of
your next meetings.

Like previous DPLs, I'm open to any inquiries or requests for
assistance. I personally prefer public discussion whenever possible, as
they can benefit a wider audience. You can find a list of contact
options at the bottom of my page on people.d.o[1].

I prefer being offline when I'm away from my keyboard, so I don't carry
a phone. In urgent situations, I can provide the number of my dumb
phone, though it may not always be within reach. Feel free to ping me
via email if I don't respond promptly to ensure I address your concerns.

Please let me know whether I can do something for you. I'm fine joining
your IRC channel if needed but please invite me in case I should be
informed about some urgent discussion there since I normally do not lurk
on this channel.

I'd also like to inform you that I've registered a BoF for DebConf24 in
Busan with the following description:

This BoF is an attempt to gather as much as possible teams inside
Debian to exchange experiences, discuss workflows inside teams, share
their ways to attract newcomers etc.

Each participant team should prepare a short description of their work
and what team roles (“openings”) they have for new contributors. Even
for delegated teams (membership is less fluid), it would be good to
present the team, explain what it takes to be a team member, and what
steps people usually go to end up being invited to participate. Some
other teams can easily absorb contributions from salsa MRs, and at some
point people get commit access. Anyway, the point is that we work on the
idea that the pathway to become a team member becomes more clear from an
outsider point-of-view.

I'm sure not everybody will be able to travel this distance but it would
be great if you would at least consider joining that BoF remotely. I'll
care for a somehow TimeZone aware scheduling - if needed we'll organise
two BoFs to match all time zones. I'm also aware that we have pretty
different teams and it might make sense to do some infrastructure
related BoF with your team and other teams that are caring for Debian infrastructure.

I have some specific questions to the i18n/l10n team.

- Do you feel good when doing your work in i18n/l10n team?
- Do you consider the workload of your team equally shared amongst its
members?
- I consider i18n / l10n an extremely important entry point to attract
newcomers. Could you confirm this assumption of mine or do you
think I'm over-optimistic here?
- Do you have some strategy to gather new contributors for your team?
- Can you give some individual estimation how many hours per week you
are working on your tasks in youre team? Does this fit the amount of
time you can really afford for this task?
- I personally consider your team important enough to be mentioned
on our Organizational Structure page[2]? Did you thought about this?
I think it is good to have an entry in Debian Wiki[3](that page is
als a bit aging - nearly 3 years no edits) but possibly the official
web page might be more visible to newcomers. You have also a Wiki
page for L10n[4] which I do not see linked from some global index page.
- I'm a bit concerned about the people listed on your Wiki page[3]
under "Usual roles" since I know most people and think they could be
considered MIA. My team metrics initiative is somehow backing up my
assumption from mailing list activities[5]. Teammetrics of Git commits
are showing[6] that other people remain more active here (thanks to
those; current most active commiters in CC)
- I was once contributing to DDTP (in its very early days). Could you
please give me some update about this project?
- What other tools are you using? Can you please describe some of your
main workflows (or provide deep links to such a descriptions)?
- Can I do anything for you?

Kind regards and thanks a lot for your work
Andreas.


[1] https://people.debian.org/~tille/
[2] https://www.debian.org/intro/organization
[3] https://wiki.debian.org/Teams/I18n
[4] https://wiki.debian.org/L10n
[5] http://blends.debian.net/liststats/authorstat_debian-i18n.png
[6] http://blends.debian.net/liststats/commitstat_debian-l10n.png

--
https://fam-tille.de

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Hi,

I can share my impressions from the web team point of view during the
BoF. Summary:
- there are some very active and well maintained languages in the
webwml repo
- there are more languages that are inactive or stalled. Major changes
in english are not applied to those languages.
- it hard to see which language team is inactive, since we still have
git commits in the webwml repo, but not from translators. These are
almost simple changes from non-translators (like http -> https,
fixing URLs,...)
- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

--
regards Thomas

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

To: tille@debian.org (Andreas Tille)
Copy: debian-i18n@lists.debian.org
Copy: debian-l10n-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org
Copy: stuart@debian.org (Stuart Prescott)
Copy: tvincent@debian.org (Thomas Vincent)
Copy: gusnan@debian.org (=?UTF-8?Q?Andreas_R=C3=B6nnquist?=)
Copy: leader@debian.org

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<!DOCTYPE html>
<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
</head>
<body>
Hi,<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">在 2024/6/18 04:23, Thomas Lange 写道:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:26224.39744.367321.8873@cs.uni-koeln.de">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">....
- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?</pre>
</blockquote>
<span style="white-space: pre-wrap">For reference, </span>weblate is
a web based tool:<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/">https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/</a><br>
<br>
There are many open source projects and Debian's projects use it
now.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">
--
肖盛文 xiao sheng wen
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.atzlinux.com">https://www.atzlinux.com</a> 《铜豌豆 Linux》基于 Debian 的 Linux 中文 桌面 操作系统
Debian QA page: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=atzlinux%40sina.com">https://qa.debian.org/developer.php?login=atzlinux%40sina.com</a>
Debian salsa: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://salsa.debian.org/atzlinux-guest">https://salsa.debian.org/atzlinux-guest</a>
GnuPG Public Key: 0x00186602339240CB</pre>
</body>
</html>

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Hello Folks,

as a Debian user and upstream maintainer there was always a question in
my mind.

Why is the wiki translated? I see not not much value in it but a lot of
work that never can come to an end.

A wiki is a living organic thing and is never finished, like a book or
an article for example. So it can never reach a "stable" state.
Because of that it is natural that a translated version of the wiki is
always outdated and always behind.

I would assume that people who need to use a Debian wiki should be able
to understand English.

Is there any evidence about how many people use the Non-English Debian
wiki?

I notice that a lot of energy and resources are used in the translation
of the wiki. That resources could be better invested in translating
upstream projects and more "official" documents like Debian Policy and Handbooks. From a perspective of a translator I wouldn't invest time
into the Debian wiki because my resulting product will be outdated when
it is finished.

Best,
Christian Buhtz

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello Helge,

Am 18.06.2024 11:21 schrieb Helge Kreutzmann:

This needs to be decided per language team. I'm personally not fond of
web based tools and anonymus contributions have not had the best
quality in the past. And you cannot talk to the submitters at all.

Weblate canb be configured that way that only logged in persons are able
to contribute.
It is also very easy to "talk" to the contributors via the comment
fields.

Weblate is definitely not perfect. Especially their upstream team IMHO
has a lacy definition of usability and "good" documentation.
But to my research it is currently the only acceptable platform in FLOSS environment. And their development is very active.

Best,
Christian

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages.

Hello *,
Am Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 08:36:20AM +0800 schrieb xiao sheng wen(肖盛文):

在 2024/6/18 04:23, Thomas Lange 写道:

....
- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

For reference, weblate is a web based tool:

https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/

There are many open source projects and Debian's projects use it now.

This needs to be decided per language team. I'm personally not fond of
web based tools and anonymus contributions have not had the best
quality in the past. And you cannot talk to the submitters at all.

I think this is just lack of (wo)man power. Translation is important, but
too few people take the time to prepare (good) translations and there
is so much to translate. I would love to contribute to the web pages
as well, but my resource are already bound to manpages-l10n and
others.

From my manpages-l10n experience: Having a good infrastructure, trying
to take care of the needs of translators, really helps.

So, in my opionion, what would really help is better education to the
english authors. If you only fix trivial (english) issues, e.g. commas,
quote signs, links, etc., then translators should not see it. So either
all up to date translations are bumped without change or the fix (e.g.
http → https) is done by the english author. This way, translators which
are up to date are releaved of work. And of course, separating trivial
and content updates.

Greetings

Helge

--
Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de
Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred
Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Hello Christian,
Am Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 09:32:29AM +0000 schrieb c.buhtz@posteo.jp:

Am 18.06.2024 11:21 schrieb Helge Kreutzmann:

This needs to be decided per language team. I'm personally not fond of
web based tools and anonymus contributions have not had the best
quality in the past. And you cannot talk to the submitters at all.

Weblate canb be configured that way that only logged in persons are able to contribute.
It is also very easy to "talk" to the contributors via the comment fields.

This really depends on your definition of "talk". IMHO, e-mail is much
more powerful and can be better refernced, see e.g. the Debian lists,
which you can search and reference.

But of course, this depends on the team.

Weblate is definitely not perfect. Especially their upstream team IMHO has a lacy definition of usability and "good" documentation.
But to my research it is currently the only acceptable platform in FLOSS environment. And their development is very active.

I would contend this. There are many translation communities working
without weblate.

In my (non research) opintion weblate is good, if you don't have a
real translation community, then users can come by and contribute. But
if you really try to have translation teams (especially for larger
ecosystems), then some kind of stable communication format is IMHO
quite a good idea, e.g. for consistency, planing work[1], communicating
with the original authors etc.

So it really depends on the projects needs.

Greetings

Helge

[1] To be precise: I work on several projects as translators. In one
project also weblate is activated and I had random users overwrite
my maintained translation (e.g. they worked on it, inconsistenly,
without asking me). They are not to blame: They just saw the
"missing" strings and "helped out". But this left me fixing
instead of translating.

--
Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de
Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred
Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Am 18.06.2024 13:14 schrieb Helge Kreutzmann:

But to my research it is currently the only acceptable platform in
FLOSS
environment. And their development is very active.

I would contend this. There are many translation communities working
without weblate.

Yep, you are right. I meant it is the only solution for translators not
having technical background. "Grandma" can use Weblate but not po-edit
for example.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:23:28 +0200
Thomas Lange <lange@cs.uni-koeln.de> wrote:

Hi,

I can share my impressions from the web team point of view during the
BoF. Summary:
- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

I don't know about this. Before the git conversion I've experienced
that people wanted to help (with the Swedish translation in my case),
but since the CVS to git migration was coming they thought that it
would be easier after the migration (in many cases as they knew git),
but after the migration I feel that I've got less translation update suggestions than ever.

This could of course be due to me or other people already fixing those
spots where these people found problems in the translations, but I
don't know for sure.

It might very well be that some web based tool would help with this
though. (This is from the angle of an already translator though, I'm
the wrong person to speak about barriers for new translators).

/Andreas Rönnquist
gusnan@debian.org
mailinglists@debian.org

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello,

On 18/06/24 10:21, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:

[...]

This needs to be decided per language team. I'm personally not fond of
web based tools and anonymus contributions have not had the best
quality in the past. And you cannot talk to the submitters at all.

I think this is just lack of (wo)man power. Translation is important, but
too few people take the time to prepare (good) translations and there
is so much to translate.

[...]

That's exactly what I think after being working in translations after a
so long, imo with some easy to collaborate tools it's easy to end up
with a mix of patches with different translated terms for the same
original ideas.
Sometimes i have to launch software to see what is presented to the user
so I can decide on how to translate. If it's presented a random sentence
to translate in a browser the collaboration it's there but the end
result may lack consistency and quality of text.

--
Best regards,

Miguel Figueiredo

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi,

thanks for your response to my contact mail.

Am Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 10:23:28PM +0200 schrieb Thomas Lange:

Hi,

I can share my impressions from the web team point of view during the
BoF. Summary:
- there are some very active and well maintained languages in the
webwml repo
- there are more languages that are inactive or stalled. Major changes
in english are not applied to those languages.

I wonder whether it makes sense to have someone inside the team who
regularly pings those who worked on the "stalled translations" in the
past, ask for a status update and in case those persons are not able to continue with their translation work whether they can at least find
someone who can take over (possibly by the help of former translators).

If all this does not help we should probably accept find some minimum
level of activity in some translation and in case some language is
falling below this level it might be better to remove this translation
(rather than providing "really" (whatever this means is to be discussed) outdated translations)

- it hard to see which language team is inactive, since we still have
git commits in the webwml repo, but not from translators. These are
almost simple changes from non-translators (like http -> https,
fixing URLs,...)

Good point. Seems somehow to stress my idea that we should try to
reach out to real persons.

- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

I'm not competent to answer this. My gut feeling tells me that if some volunteer really wants to contribute the tools do not matter much. I've
seen my "non-Linux-office-only-educated" daughter Minh from Vietnam
doing an intro session into CVS (at that time) and Git by Felipe and the
next day she started with using these. It might be that "easier" tools
are possibly helpful to attract new contributors more easily since not everybody is sufficiently motivated to climb that steep hill in the first place. So the contact to past translators cold include some kind of questionaire like:

1. Do you think that (re-)gaining the skills you need to restart
your translation work is a blocker? yes/no
2. Do you think you could find someone who takes over your work
would be easier if the tools would be easier to use? yes/no

I'm convinced that we as technically addictect persons can not find a
proper answer to this question amongst ourselves.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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Hi,

thanks a lot for your responses to my contact mail.

Am Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 09:21:01AM +0000 schrieb Helge Kreutzmann:

Am Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 08:36:20AM +0800 schrieb xiao sheng wen(肖盛文):

在 2024/6/18 04:23, Thomas Lange 写道:

....
- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

For reference, weblate is a web based tool:

https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/

There are many open source projects and Debian's projects use it now.

This needs to be decided per language team.

I might be naive here since I have not much expertise with translators
but I see some advantage if we could settle with the same toolset /
workflow for all languages.

I'm personally not fond of
web based tools and anonymus contributions have not had the best
quality in the past. And you cannot talk to the submitters at all.

You have a vallid point about anonymus contributions but I do not think
that web tool automatically means anonymus. The suggested weblate above
has some register/login feature just to give some example.

I think this is just lack of (wo)man power. Translation is important, but
too few people take the time to prepare (good) translations and there
is so much to translate.

100% ACK that translation is important. However, if we have a lack of person-power (see my other mail how we could possibly revive old / find
new persons) we need to deal with this situation possibly by setting priorities.

I would love to contribute to the web pages
as well, but my resource are already bound to manpages-l10n and
others.

From my manpages-l10n experience: Having a good infrastructure, trying
to take care of the needs of translators, really helps.

ACK.

So, in my opionion, what would really help is better education to the english authors. If you only fix trivial (english) issues, e.g. commas, quote signs, links, etc., then translators should not see it. So either
all up to date translations are bumped without change or the fix (e.g.
http → https) is done by the english author. This way, translators which are up to date are releaved of work. And of course, separating trivial
and content updates.

Makes sense. What are you guys doing to teach those english authors?

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

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This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages.

Hello Andreas,
Am Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:31:00AM +0200 schrieb Andreas Tille:

Am Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 09:21:01AM +0000 schrieb Helge Kreutzmann:

So, in my opionion, what would really help is better education to the english authors. If you only fix trivial (english) issues, e.g. commas, quote signs, links, etc., then translators should not see it. So either all up to date translations are bumped without change or the fix (e.g. http → https) is done by the english author. This way, translators which are up to date are releaved of work. And of course, separating trivial
and content updates.

Makes sense. What are you guys doing to teach those english authors?

For manpages-l10n I collect FIXMEs and send them upstream, which is
more akin to bug reports about individual errors. However, I do not
"teach" them in l10n-friendly editing fundamentals. This might be a
side note in a conversion, but not much more from my side.

Maybe we could start by collecting "best practices" within the l10n
teams and then thinks about how to best "teach" those to the english
authors?

Greetings

Helge

--
Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de
Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred
Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Hello Andreas,
Am Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 11:15:57AM +0200 schrieb Andreas Tille:

Am Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 10:23:28PM +0200 schrieb Thomas Lange:
If all this does not help we should probably accept find some minimum
level of activity in some translation and in case some language is
falling below this level it might be better to remove this translation (rather than providing "really" (whatever this means is to be discussed) outdated translations)

Depending on the context and frequency of updates, it might be a good
idea just to "disable" instead of remove translations. In PO based
workflows, a translation is disabled if it goes below a threshold
(usually 88%).

In manpages-l10n we have (had) quite a few non maintained languages.
My co-maintainer carefully imported them in our toolchain and then I
went about looking for translators and some translators even
approached me asking to contribute. From my experience they were glad
"not to start from scratch" and I kindly helped them using the
infrastructure and, where possible, implemented there feature request
to ease the work. And now many translations are active (of course,
with varying ressources).

Actually, one language started from scratch and I got less than a
dozen commits and then gone. This is not statistics, but just an
indication that "empty" languages might be too big a burden to start
with (and thus complete removal might not be the best way forward).

- it hard to see which language team is inactive, since we still have
git commits in the webwml repo, but not from translators. These are
almost simple changes from non-translators (like http -> https,
fixing URLs,...)

Good point. Seems somehow to stress my idea that we should try to
reach out to real persons.

Yes, I strongly support this. For me, the most difficult point is
"finding" them (i.e. potential translators).

- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

I'm not competent to answer this. My gut feeling tells me that if some volunteer really wants to contribute the tools do not matter much. I've
seen my "non-Linux-office-only-educated" daughter Minh from Vietnam
doing an intro session into CVS (at that time) and Git by Felipe and the
next day she started with using these. It might be that "easier" tools
are possibly helpful to attract new contributors more easily since not everybody is sufficiently motivated to climb that steep hill in the first place. So the contact to past translators cold include some kind of questionaire like:

1. Do you think that (re-)gaining the skills you need to restart
your translation work is a blocker? yes/no
2. Do you think you could find someone who takes over your work
would be easier if the tools would be easier to use? yes/no

I'm convinced that we as technically addictect persons can not find a
proper answer to this question amongst ourselves.

From my experience (see above) helping them is key. I have no problem
giving them the exact command they need, forgiving mistakes and where
necessary take the time to explain it over and over again.

Greetings

Helge

--
Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de
Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred
Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Hi Helge,

Am Wed, Jun 26, 2024 at 03:01:19PM +0000 schrieb Helge Kreutzmann:

Maybe we could start by collecting "best practices" within the l10n
teams and then thinks about how to best "teach" those to the english
authors?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

Kind regards
Andreas.

--
https://fam-tille.de

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hello all

El 26 de junio de 2024 21:45:01 CEST, Paulo Henrique de Lima Santana <phls@debian.org> escribió:

Hi,

Some months ago I setup up https://weblate.debian.net

I was planning run some tests with portuguese translations and then open to everyone.

But we can start to test it, specially the admin part.

Please take into account that there are already several Debian translation projects active in <https://hosted.weblate.org/projects/>

Kind regards

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi,

Andreas Tille <tille@debian.org> wrote (Wed, 26 Jun 2024 11:15:57 +0200):

Am Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 10:23:28PM +0200 schrieb Thomas Lange:

- I'm interested in what may help translators, for e.g. is git a
barrier for people to become an active translator? Would a web based
tool help?

I'm not competent to answer this. My gut feeling tells me that if some volunteer really wants to contribute the tools do not matter much. I've
seen my "non-Linux-office-only-educated" daughter Minh from Vietnam
doing an intro session into CVS (at that time) and Git by Felipe and the
next day she started with using these. It might be that "easier" tools
are possibly helpful to attract new contributors more easily since not everybody is sufficiently motivated to climb that steep hill in the first place. So the contact to past translators cold include some kind of questionaire like:

we cannot assume that everyone can use git, if he wants. There are many
areas in the world, where the only accessible internet-capable device is
either a smartphone or a foreign PC in internet cafes, schools or similar institutions.
So forcing on git as the tool to use would be a burden IMO.

Activating Weblate for the Debian-Installer has brought translation updates
for languages, that were orphaned for years before.
However, as mentioned in another mail, the binding of such translators to the project seems (sometimes) to be less strong compared to translators using git.


Holger


--
Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hi,

Helge Kreutzmann <debian@helgefjell.de> wrote (Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:21:01 +0000):

So, in my opionion, what would really help is better education to the
english authors. If you only fix trivial (english) issues, e.g. commas,
quote signs, links, etc., then translators should not see it. So either
all up to date translations are bumped without change or the fix (e.g.
http → https) is done by the english author. This way, translators which are up to date are releaved of work. And of course, separating trivial
and content updates.

Please note, that the developers-reference also has https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/developers-reference.en.html#general-recommendations-for-authors-and-translators
mentioning most of the above already.

So, in theory all developers should be aware of this.
I know that practice looks different.


Holger

--
Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org>
PGP-Fingerprint: 496A C6E8 1442 4B34 8508 3529 59F1 87CA 156E B076

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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