• Re: Change of templates file in fontconfig-config

    From Justin B Rye@21:1/5 to Gunnar Hjalmarsson on Mon Sep 4 08:20:01 2023
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    Hi!

    I made a minor — but important — change to the debian/fontconfig-config.templates file in the fontconfig source package:

    https://salsa.debian.org/freedesktop-team/fontconfig/-/commit/45d8eda0

    That created fuzzy items in the PO files. I saw the reference to this list
    in the file, so this is a heads-up. Not sure how a change like this is expected to be further processed.

    debian-l10n-english is the one part of the debian-i18n hierarchy where
    there's no work to be done; it's all the other languages that still
    have the bit in parentheses. Maybe this is a case where you can
    safely pick out and delete those bits and declare it unfuzzied,
    without needing to be fluent in Urdu and so on? I'm Ccing d-i18n for
    any input.

    Mind you, if fontconf-confontconfig-config now has a different default
    font, why do the package dependencies still have dejavu as first
    preference? If you aren't running plasma or cinnamon, almost nothing
    seems to pull in fonts-noto - not even fonts-recommended.

    How is a normal user doing an install expected to know what font they
    are going to be using, anyway? Previously they could say "well, I
    don't know enough about all this to want to customise anything, so
    apparently I'll need Native hinting, whatever that is"; now they need
    to *guess* that the default is some TrueType font they've never heard
    of.

    (When it talks about Microsoft fonts, does that mean the ones from the
    non-free msttcorefonts package that disappeared in Lenny?)
    --
    JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
    sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gunnar Hjalmarsson@21:1/5 to Justin B Rye on Mon Sep 4 19:30:01 2023
    Thanks for your reply, Justin!

    On 2023-09-04 08:19, Justin B Rye wrote:
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    I made a minor — but important — change to the
    debian/fontconfig-config.templates file in the fontconfig source
    package:

    https://salsa.debian.org/freedesktop-team/fontconfig/-/commit/45d8eda0

    That created fuzzy items in the PO files. I saw the reference to
    this list in the file, so this is a heads-up. Not sure how a
    change like this is expected to be further processed.

    debian-l10n-english is the one part of the debian-i18n hierarchy
    where there's no work to be done; it's all the other languages that
    still have the bit in parentheses.

    Right. Probably the comment at the top of the file, where
    debian-l10n-english is mentioned, should be altered or dropped.

    Maybe this is a case where you can safely pick out and delete those
    bits and declare it unfuzzied, without needing to be fluent in Urdu
    and so on?

    Unless somebody objects, I may do that.

    I'm Ccing d-i18n for any input.

    Thanks for broadening the audience.

    Mind you, if fontconf-confontconfig-config now has a different
    default font, why do the package dependencies still have dejavu as
    first preference?

    That's true in Debian 12, but not in testing:

    https://salsa.debian.org/freedesktop-team/fontconfig/-/commit/5aa10dde

    If you aren't running plasma or cinnamon, almost nothing seems to
    pull in fonts-noto - not even fonts-recommended.

    Well, fonts-noto-core is recommended by the libreoffice binary, which
    means that Noto is effectively default in Debian 12 also with the GNOME desktop.

    How is a normal user doing an install expected to know what font
    they are going to be using, anyway? Previously they could say "well,
    I don't know enough about all this to want to customise anything, so apparently I'll need Native hinting, whatever that is"; now they
    need to *guess* that the default is some TrueType font they've never
    heard of.

    (When it talks about Microsoft fonts, does that mean the ones from
    the non-free msttcorefonts package that disappeared in Lenny?)

    Those are good questions/thoughts.

    The DejaVu -> Noto change in the font configuration was made upstream,
    and hit Debian with fontconfig 2.14. There were reactions:

    https://bugs.debian.org/1028643

    https://bugs.debian.org/1029390

    https://bugs.debian.org/1029237

    But nobody addressed those directly, and Debian 12 was released with
    some ambiguity. Debian was caught off guard.

    I attended to the fontconfig package only recently, and have taken a
    couple of steps to handle the situation. One thing is that the default monospace font was changed back to DejaVu recently, so now we have:

    sans-serif Noto Sans
    serif Noto Serif
    monospace DejaVu Sans Mono

    It is apparently likely that debian/fontconfig-config.templates will
    undergo further changes soon, so possibly I should wait a bit with
    dealing with those PO files.

    But I think we would need a 'font expert' to help get it right.

    --
    Rgds,
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Justin B Rye@21:1/5 to Gunnar Hjalmarsson on Mon Sep 4 21:00:02 2023
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    On 2023-09-04 08:19, Justin B Rye wrote:
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    I made a minor — but important — change to the
    debian/fontconfig-config.templates file in the fontconfig source
    package:

    https://salsa.debian.org/freedesktop-team/fontconfig/-/commit/45d8eda0

    That created fuzzy items in the PO files. I saw the reference to
    this list in the file, so this is a heads-up. Not sure how a
    change like this is expected to be further processed.

    debian-l10n-english is the one part of the debian-i18n hierarchy
    where there's no work to be done; it's all the other languages that
    still have the bit in parentheses.

    Right. Probably the comment at the top of the file, where
    debian-l10n-english is mentioned, should be altered or dropped.

    Well, *most* changes to template text need to go through d-l-e on
    their way to translators, this is just one where we get to take a
    shortcut.

    Maybe this is a case where you can safely pick out and delete those
    bits and declare it unfuzzied, without needing to be fluent in Urdu
    and so on?

    Unless somebody objects, I may do that.

    I'm Ccing d-i18n for any input.

    Thanks for broadening the audience.

    Mind you, if fontconf-confontconfig-config now has a different
    default font, why do the package dependencies still have dejavu as
    first preference?

    That's true in Debian 12, but not in testing:

    And I could easily have checked that, but somehow I forgot.

    https://salsa.debian.org/freedesktop-team/fontconfig/-/commit/5aa10dde

    If you aren't running plasma or cinnamon, almost nothing seems to
    pull in fonts-noto - not even fonts-recommended.

    Well, fonts-noto-core is recommended by the libreoffice binary, which means that Noto is effectively default in Debian 12 also with the GNOME desktop.

    It's a surprisingly tenuous dependency chain for something we might
    want to rely on; I didn't have fonts-noto-core installed anywhere,
    probably because I had noticed how many things libreoffice pulled in
    and was sceptical about any functionality I was ever going to use
    requiring *both* -dejavu *and* -noto.

    Wait a minute... gnome-desktop depends on libreoffice-calc, -gnome,
    and -impress, but not libreoffice itself, so the Recommends: on
    fonts-noto-core is bypassed. If I ask aptitude to get ready to
    install task-gnome-desktop on my testing machine (complete with
    Recommends), that pulls in a vast horde of packages (it would almost
    double the number of installed packages on that machine), but not
    one of the extra package names begins with "fon"! Presumably that's
    another instance of upgrades keeping what's already there.

    How is a normal user doing an install expected to know what font
    they are going to be using, anyway? Previously they could say "well,
    I don't know enough about all this to want to customise anything, so
    apparently I'll need Native hinting, whatever that is"; now they
    need to *guess* that the default is some TrueType font they've never
    heard of.

    (When it talks about Microsoft fonts, does that mean the ones from
    the non-free msttcorefonts package that disappeared in Lenny?)

    Those are good questions/thoughts.

    On further investigation I see there's still a contrib package named ttf-mscorefonts-installer - not quite similar enough for my previous
    search to catch it.

    My other question, omitted to avoid making it look as if I thought I
    knew anything about fonts, was "When it says TrueType, it probably
    means as opposed to older formats, but what answer should I give if my
    default font is fonts-freefont-otf or maybe fonts-localhomebrew-woff?

    The DejaVu -> Noto change in the font configuration was made upstream, and hit Debian with fontconfig 2.14. There were reactions:

    https://bugs.debian.org/1028643

    https://bugs.debian.org/1029390

    https://bugs.debian.org/1029237

    But nobody addressed those directly, and Debian 12 was released with some ambiguity. Debian was caught off guard.

    I attended to the fontconfig package only recently, and have taken a couple of steps to handle the situation. One thing is that the default monospace font was changed back to DejaVu recently, so now we have:

    sans-serif Noto Sans
    serif Noto Serif
    monospace DejaVu Sans Mono

    It is apparently likely that debian/fontconfig-config.templates will undergo further changes soon, so possibly I should wait a bit with dealing with
    those PO files.

    But I think we would need a 'font expert' to help get it right.

    I'm not one of those. When people say "look at these screenshots of
    how much worse it is!" I can rarely even tell which way round
    "before" and "after" are meant to be...
    --
    JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
    sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gunnar Hjalmarsson@21:1/5 to Justin B Rye on Tue Sep 5 01:50:01 2023
    On 2023-09-04 20:56, Justin B Rye wrote:
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson wrote:
    On 2023-09-04 08:19, Justin B Rye wrote:
    debian-l10n-english is the one part of the debian-i18n hierarchy
    where there's no work to be done; it's all the other languages
    that still have the bit in parentheses.

    Right. Probably the comment at the top of the file, where
    debian-l10n-english is mentioned, should be altered or dropped.

    Well, *most* changes to template text need to go through d-l-e on
    their way to translators, this is just one where we get to take a
    shortcut.

    Ack.

    Well, fonts-noto-core is recommended by the libreoffice binary,
    which means that Noto is effectively default in Debian 12 also with
    the GNOME desktop.

    It's a surprisingly tenuous dependency chain for something we might
    want to rely on; I didn't have fonts-noto-core installed anywhere,
    probably because I had noticed how many things libreoffice pulled in
    and was sceptical about any functionality I was ever going to use
    requiring *both* -dejavu *and* -noto.

    Wait a minute... gnome-desktop depends on libreoffice-calc, -gnome,
    and -impress, but not libreoffice itself, so the Recommends: on fonts-noto-core is bypassed. If I ask aptitude to get ready to
    install task-gnome-desktop on my testing machine (complete with
    Recommends), that pulls in a vast horde of packages (it would almost
    double the number of installed packages on that machine), but not one
    of the extra package names begins with "fon"! Presumably that's
    another instance of upgrades keeping what's already there.

    I stand corrected. My Debian testing was installed long ago and has been updated since then. And yes, libreoffice is not there. OTOH I have plasma-desktop available, so I may have mixed it up.

    Anyway, currently it's hard to identify a Debian default font.
    Previously it was DejaVu, since fonts-dejavu-core was always(?)
    installed and fontconfig-config preferred DejaVu. Now fontconfig-config
    prefers Noto for sans-serif and serif, but fonts-noto-core is not always present. And that is the reason for the edit of the templates file which
    this thread was originally about.

    But I think we would need a 'font expert' to help get it right.

    I'm not one of those. When people say "look at these screenshots of
    how much worse it is!" I can rarely even tell which way round
    "before" and "after" are meant to be...

    Haha, it could have been me who said that. :)

    --
    Gunnar

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)