Hoi Jean,

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 at 11:27, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL <jpmengual@debian.org> wrote:

My concern is that we are very few contrib, and the work is giant. Many packages, but also many movements in packages (descriptions updats, additional packages, etc). I do not see how human beings can hope to translate all the packages descs in such conditions someday and for how
long. Also because there as much work for translating as reviewing.

Thanks for the work. I agree that the backend of DDTP has a lot of
things that could be improved.

Some background: in the DDTP backend you are not translating
descriptions, but paragraphs; a description consists of multiple
paragraphs.

This means that in the backend there are actually many little
optimisations that could be done. For example, if there is only a
small change between two paragraphs (for example a fixed typo, or
punctuation) then you could just copy the translations for those
paragraphs. I think the system does this already to some extent, I
forget.

One idea I had a long time ago was to automate a lot of the cases you
mention. Basically, if you see a paragraph like:

foo X bar

and the translations look like:

feu X bah

then if you see another paragraph that looks like

foo Y bar

then you can automatically create a translation like

feu Y bah

This should automatically handle a several of cases you suggest. X
could be package names, version numbers, etc.... Honestly, you could
probably do all sorts of fancy machine learning algorithms as well.

Many years ago grisu and I spent quite some time making a DDTP-ng,
which re-implemented DDTP/DDTSS as a Django project written in Python
with real database models where it would be easy to implement these
kinds of algorithms. The project unfortunately died, you should be
able to find it in the archives somewhere. One of the things it wanted
to support was for example having some translation engine provide
suggestions for translations of paragraphs and then an interface to approve/adjust these suggestions. And a po interface for more other
possibly more advanced translation systems.

Maybe in the mean time more powerful translation systems have appeared
that DDTP could simply integrate with, and we could do away with the
current DDTSS altogether (it's terrible, I wrote it, I should know).

The main problem now is that the backend of DDTP/DDTSS is effectively
on life-support and has been for a very long time. I believe that to
really make the life of translators easier it would require work on
the order of DDTP-ng to bring the code up to a level other people want
to work with it. While translation teams are reasonably organised, the
backend simply doesn't get much love. I occasionally give it a kick
but that's it., I don't have time for much else.

Which reminds me, DDTP probably needs to start processing buster.

Not sure if this helps you. Any large change I think will require the
buy in of the translators. It totally not clear to me how important
this project actually is, but I feel it could be much better than it
is.

Groet,
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Hi,

#860386 [1] could be a good starting point to make the
translation process faster and give Translation Teams the ability
to find untranslated descriptions (>2000 for German Team and Japanese
Team, >1500 for Spanish Team, >1000 for Russian Team and so on...)
which are almost identical to the (already translated) previous ones.
A good example is python3-alembic package which has 3 descriptions:

131737: Translated in 6 languages [2]
229048: Translated in 6 languages [3]
269405 (active): Translated in 2 languages [4]

but the diff is minimal [5].

That patch could be further improved by providing a link
to the diff between current untranslated description and last
translated description; however that diff can be easily retrieved
by visiting http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?package=packagename page
(eg. [6]) without making a larger (and slower) query against the
database (but maybe this is not a problem, I don't know).

My 2??.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=860386
[2] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?desc_id=131737
[3] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?desc_id=229048
[4] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?desc_id=269405
[5] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?diff1=269405&diff2=229048
[6] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?diff1=34849&diff2=15229

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For such devs like ddtp-ng, couldn't we submit a project for gsoc?

Regards



Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 12/10/2019 à 12:45, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL a écrit :

Le 10/10/2019 à 19:55, s3v a écrit :

Hi,

#860386 [1] could be a good starting point to make the
translation process faster and give Translation Teams the ability
to find untranslated descriptions (>2000 for German Team and Japanese
Team, >1500 for Spanish Team, >1000 for Russian Team and so on...)
which are almost identical to the (already translated) previous ones.
A good example is python3-alembic package which has 3 descriptions:

131737: Translated in 6 languages [2]
229048: Translated in 6 languages [3]
269405 (active): Translated in 2 languages [4]

but the diff is minimal [5].

That patch could be further improved by providing a link
to the diff between current untranslated description and last
translated description; however that diff can be easily retrieved
by visiting http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?package=packagename page
(eg. [6]) without making a larger (and slower) query against the
database (but maybe this is not a problem, I don't know).

Once identified this kind of repeat, how would be applied the "common" translation? Automatically?

Regards

My 2??.

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=860386
[2] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?desc_id=131737
[3] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?desc_id=229048
[4] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?desc_id=269405
[5] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?diff1=269405&diff2=229048
[6] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?diff1=34849&diff2=15229

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Hoi,

Interesting idea. I'm willing to apply the patch, though we'd need
some better name than "something".

allneartranslatedpackages
allpreviouslytranslatedpackages

Other ideas?


On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 12:45, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
<jpmengual@debian.org> wrote:

Once identified this kind of repeat, how would be applied the "common" translation? Automatically?

In situations like the first where the change is an additional
paragraph, once done all descriptions where the same paragraph is
added would be automatically complete.

Groet,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@gmail.com> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Hi,

yes, s3v idea is very good. I think the system calls incomplete
descriptions "partially translated". So maybe
"allpartiallytranslatedpackages"? (this is different of course from "allpreviouslytranslated")

I did not check the bug/patch so I am not sure which of the 2 cases it
covers, or if it covers both.

just my 2c on the name :)

and my thanks again for all who are working on this,

beatrice.

On martedì 15 ottobre 2019, at 09:33 +0200, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote:

Hoi,

Interesting idea. I'm willing to apply the patch, though we'd need
some better name than "something".

allneartranslatedpackages
allpreviouslytranslatedpackages

Other ideas?

On Sat, 12 Oct 2019 at 12:45, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
<jpmengual@debian.org> wrote:

Once identified this kind of repeat, how would be applied the "common" translation? Automatically?

In situations like the first where the change is an additional
paragraph, once done all descriptions where the same paragraph is
added would be automatically complete.

Groet,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@gmail.com> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Hoi,

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 18:39, Beatrice Torracca <beatricet@libero.it> wrote:

yes, s3v idea is very good. I think the system calls incomplete
descriptions "partially translated". So maybe "allpartiallytranslatedpackages"? (this is different of course from "allpreviouslytranslated")

So I went with allpartiallytranslatedpackages, for example:

http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=nl

Try this, see if it works as expected or if it needs some tweaks.

Groet,
--
Martijn van Oosterhout <kleptog@gmail.com> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Hi,

Many thanks. It gives good idea of things. I thought mor French
packages were affected, but I see only 900 packages with a not complete translation. On the other hand I guess that when we translate one
Python-xx or some bindings or python3, it will be easier to identify the potential duplication. Great then and many thanks

Best regards




Jean-Philippe MENGUAL
Le 15/10/2019 à 22:25, Martijn van Oosterhout a écrit :

Hoi,

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 at 18:39, Beatrice Torracca <beatricet@libero.it> wrote:

yes, s3v idea is very good. I think the system calls incomplete
descriptions "partially translated". So maybe
"allpartiallytranslatedpackages"? (this is different of course from
"allpreviouslytranslated")

So I went with allpartiallytranslatedpackages, for example:

http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=nl

Try this, see if it works as expected or if it needs some tweaks.

Groet,

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Hi,

I believe automation requires a lot of work. We have:
- many languages
- many grammars
- many syntactic rules
- few contributors (none?)
- no top-level rules (e.g. policies to advice maintainers to write descriptions
using some schemas/variables).

Furthermore, avoiding an automatic (and never reviewed!) mistake by DDTP is better than a bunch of automatic translation handled properly, IMHO.
Maybe we should concentrate on "easily-to-translate" descriptions instead of automatic translations and addressing little problems
for speeding up translation workflow would be a immediate solution for improving
the "productivity".
Anyway I agree with kleptog: unfortunately DDTP doesn't have active contributors
both for little and big actions.

a) python-* and python3-* have the same descs. We should be able to
translate both python and python3 translating one of them.

python2 packages are going to be removed from sid/bullseye.
Therefore, there is no need to translate them. https://wiki.debian.org/Python/2Removal

b) linux-*-dbg: the string is similar, the translation should be
automated, optionally put in the reviewing string for safety

dforsi from Italian Team wrote a very useful script for translating linux-* packages: https://github.com/dforsi/debian-tools/raw/master/packages/ddtss/linux-packages.user.js
Note that this is on the way to "easily-to-translate" land, so it could not be what you are looking for.

Kind regards and thanks for throwing a stone in the water.

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Le 16/10/2019 à 15:41, s3v a écrit :

Hi,

I believe automation requires a lot of work. We have:
- many languages
- many grammars
- many syntactic rules
- few contributors (none?)
- no top-level rules (e.g. policies to advice maintainers to write descriptions
using some schemas/variables).

Furthermore, avoiding an automatic (and never reviewed!) mistake by DDTP is better than a bunch of automatic translation handled properly, IMHO.
Maybe we should concentrate on "easily-to-translate" descriptions instead of automatic translations and addressing little problems
for speeding up translation workflow would be a immediate solution for improving
the "productivity".

Right. The thing is not addressing issues per language, but trying to
avoid duplicate work.

Anyway I agree with kleptog: unfortunately DDTP doesn't have active contributors
both for little and big actions.

a) python-* and python3-* have the same descs. We should be able to
translate both python and python3 translating one of them.

python2 packages are going to be removed from sid/bullseye.
Therefore, there is no need to translate them. https://wiki.debian.org/Python/2Removal

Well they should not be fetched then. Could not we filter them to avoid
useless work?

b) linux-*-dbg: the string is similar, the translation should be
automated, optionally put in the reviewing string for safety

dforsi from Italian Team wrote a very useful script for translating linux-* packages: https://github.com/dforsi/debian-tools/raw/master/packages/ddtss/linux-packages.user.js
Note that this is on the way to "easily-to-translate" land, so it could not be
what you are looking for.

How such script could be applied as we have not control on the database?
What is the good workflow?

Best regards

Kind regards and thanks for throwing a stone in the water.

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Hi,

first of all, thank you for all your work in DDTP and for taking care
of this feature.

So I went with allpartiallytranslatedpackages, for example: http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=nl

I'm very sorry for my intervention (I really didn't want to have to do this) but I believe "allpreviouslytranslated" is more appropriate.
Not *ALL* partially translated packages are listed in that page, but only previously translated ones in a certain language.
And packages listed in that page may be completely untranslated if
maintainer changed all paragraphs of the current description.

Try this, see if it works as expected or if it needs some tweaks.

I made checks for it, pt, de_DE, and ml languages, and the numbers of packages listed in [1][2][3][4] are exactly the same than numbers in [5] (numbers within round brackets), so the changes work perfectly :)

E.g. for italian language we have 304 packages listed in that page and

 lang it has 42335 (304) active translations from 89880 translations;                     ^^^
in [1].
I keep checking for problems in the next days.

Please note that a "Something" was left behind in [1] (and others), and a meaningful description needs to be provided.

Something like:
..
print "<BODY>\n";
print "<h3>This is a list of packages that were previously translated into $language language but currently they are not.\n"
print "Please follow the link with the diffs between descriptions.</h3>\n";
..

or similar (my english is very poor :) )

Please, can you push these little changes? (Sorry for not providing a patch but I can't see the commit on Salsa [6])

Thanks again!


[1] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=it
[2] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=pt
[3] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=ml
[4] http://ddtp2.debian.net/ddt.cgi?allpartiallytranslatedpackages=de_DE
[5] http://ddtp2.debian.net/
[6] https://salsa.debian.org/l10n-team/ddtp/commits/master



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Hi,

Well they should not be fetched then. Could not we filter them to avoid useless work?

DDTP fetches descriptions by priority (higher first) and lowering python-* package priority would be a good idea.
Current values:

- python3-* packages have priority 47
- python-* (but not *-doc) packages have priority 47
- python-*-doc packages have priority 46

This snippet:

 # Python2 packages will be removed from bullseye, let's lower their priority  $prioritize -= 1 if $package =~ /^python-/i && $package !~ /-doc$/i;

added in Packages2db.pl [1] at line 358 (or around it) lowers priority by 1
(46 instead of 47).
Would something like this be useful to accomplish the job?
Please feel free to amend the code or completely change the approach, my
Perl knowledge is quite limited.

How such script could be applied as we have not control on the database?
What is the good workflow?

That is a user-level script for use with Greasemonkey or similar extensions, more context at https://github.com/dforsi/debian-tools/tree/master/packages/ddtss .
Please note that script translations must be updated if maintainer
changes package descriptions (not so often, fortunately).
I don't know how implementing this feature in DDTP and how to maintain it.

Kind Regards.

[1] https://salsa.debian.org/l10n-team/ddtp/blob/master/Packages2db.pl



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Hi,

Le 17/10/2019 à 20:59, lorenzo casiello a écrit :

Hi,

Well they should not be fetched then. Could not we filter them to avoid
useless work?

DDTP fetches descriptions by priority (higher first) and lowering python-* package priority would be a good idea.
Current values:

- python3-* packages have priority 47
- python-* (but not *-doc) packages have priority 47
- python-*-doc packages have priority 46

This snippet:

 # Python2 packages will be removed from bullseye, let's lower their priority
 $prioritize -= 1 if $package =~ /^python-/i && $package !~ /-doc$/i;

added in Packages2db.pl [1] at line 358 (or around it) lowers priority by 1 (46 instead of 47).
Would something like this be useful to accomplish the job?

I think the approach is excellent. Who could change the ddtp backend
with this?

Please feel free to amend the code or completely change the approach, my
Perl knowledge is quite limited.

How such script could be applied as we have not control on the database?
What is the good workflow?

That is a user-level script for use with Greasemonkey or similar extensions, more context at https://github.com/dforsi/debian-tools/tree/master/packages/ddtss .
Please note that script translations must be updated if maintainer
changes package descriptions (not so often, fortunately).
I don't know how implementing this feature in DDTP and how to maintain it.

ok I will have a check. Thanks

Best regards

Kind Regards.

[1] https://salsa.debian.org/l10n-team/ddtp/blob/master/Packages2db.pl

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On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 21:15, lorenzo casiello
<lorenzo.casiello@email.it> wrote:

DDTP fetches descriptions by priority (higher first) and lowering python-* package priority would be a good idea.
Current values:

- python3-* packages have priority 47
- python-* (but not *-doc) packages have priority 47
- python-*-doc packages have priority 46

This snippet:

# Python2 packages will be removed from bullseye, let's lower their priority
$prioritize -= 1 if $package =~ /^python-/i && $package !~ /-doc$/i;

added in Packages2db.pl [1] at line 358 (or around it) lowers priority by 1 (46 instead of 47).

Seems like a good idea, so I did it.

Have a nice day,
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On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 19:56, lorenzo casiello
<lorenzo.casiello@email.it> wrote:

but I believe "allpreviouslytranslated" is more appropriate.
Not *ALL* partially translated packages are listed in that page, but only previously translated ones in a certain language.
And packages listed in that page may be completely untranslated if
maintainer changed all paragraphs of the current description.

Ok, so I changed it. The old name redirects to the new name (not sure
if anyone has put it in scripts yet).

Please, can you push these little changes? (Sorry for not providing a patch but
I can't see the commit on Salsa [6])

Correct, I changed the live system. It's committed there, but needs
still to be pushed to salsa.

Have a nice day,
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
Hi,

Il 20/10/19 12:12, Martijn van Oosterhout ha scritto:

On Thu, 17 Oct 2019 at 21:15, lorenzo casiello
<lorenzo.casiello@email.it> wrote:

DDTP fetches descriptions by priority (higher first) and lowering python-* >> package priority would be a good idea.
Current values:

- python3-* packages have priority 47
- python-* (but not *-doc) packages have priority 47
- python-*-doc packages have priority 46

This snippet:

# Python2 packages will be removed from bullseye, let's lower their priority
$prioritize -= 1 if $package =~ /^python-/i && $package !~ /-doc$/i;

added in Packages2db.pl [1] at line 358 (or around it) lowers priority by 1 >> (46 instead of 47).

Seems like a good idea, so I did it.

Have a nice day,

Thanks!

During the last week I've checked consequences of the commit and after downloading DDTP database [1] I noticed that almost all Python2 packages have lower priority (46 or less) that before; a not negligible part of them still has
priority 47+ despite the lowering, as they do have priority 48+ in the past.

After some queries against DDTP database:

1) Python2 packages are 1299
2) Python2 packages with priority 47+ are 448 (~35%)

Approaching in a more aggressive manner (downgrading priority by 5 or more) would be doable but I don't know if it's worth it. Please note that some Python2
packages in DDTP still have priority 52 :)

A list of Python2 packages with priority 47+ is attached.

Best regards.

[1] http://ddtp2.debian.net/source/



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ZE-Light e ZE-Pro: servizi zimbra per caselle con dominio email.it, per tutti i dettagli
Clicca qui http://posta.email.it/caselle-di-posta-z-email-it.php?utm_campaign=email_Zimbra_102014=main_footer/f

Sponsor:
Idee regalo classiche o alternative? Trova l'offerta migliore in un click
Clicca qui: http://adv.email.it/cgi-bin/foclick.cgi?mid=13327&d=1-11 /Td6WFoAAATm1rRGAgAhARYAAAB0L+Wj4OglEs9dABBsygYTJmMZlYHTchG4wDmmLbsoaJsD N5vvNyPiDpV/HG5G48pR+VxO9vRam/6F6HfGtvKxdLP7o3lc24T22Nx1Pjw0ImYqliTCM6fO f9vYacNdVfd7Zt2WUq9SCuQ4OEEq1G7p3GtZx5Mv0Gzm+q+JfCmIPr3nU0iDMlssmWnkiGYg VZVGndR3z1JUlljuNvexBPgR6/zLaga8uabnQGAS2lRntn0dnJM+a3bd999ycq2JbmAt+e4y GUoZWaLfNEazbresD7VkXg1ncV+oYHo7FWZmCRLaCiG0pjzFnzlrbYssdhyrKIanGiugVVzq Eq4O9vRuV4ZHxJ0iDLC9JsNb6+AGRWcFWw2HJGhy/wJj9UW18elQ8I0nkFN40zeh41OkFzi6 PihrL0/n0uoS5P/fhXrPJIOR9dWLHe81+NfiGTNvDHinDxbMN0bQr3UnmIkad9wmfNHtlTFn X8yaPCEqxjORpLBOXiMZT0yaPYC3E75z6fa37sObht0+GrRxk9ufiA5ExXKSU8OPA2Z/FXnn wM/Os7txjrgSRp460rlMwX4T01nMBzsFwJar9+9p6f6z7Ha90xgEyrFhkR2hrBrAsjr5fUsy mfLR9givYcdi8gvzZt81uW3f46FnhUdYB6veiAWnDKTbxSuZhw+G6CnnslVLtqzhUedYtD7U EwNNl+2SYxSbqwkVXYVSC04hPwY+ITQzXaXyqiEzavbXkGG4ASpB67d6D5SVv3syIky+Bj0P vuUKxqi80CtIs+i0LNC8laTmBQJ95mRhpNwcfS9nm7mKxKxO8ojU6mNNDTpsA38nmKitXfcQ 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