The specific query was about Nazi quotes from someone in Europe - I don't believe our database currently contains these, as they were purged from the BSD package from which ours is derived but I would be prepared to be very wrong here.
The point was made that if the database did contain Nazi quotes / a swastika it might make it illegal to host the content on mirrors in at least Germany or Austria.
All,
This is in the context of a mail to the Community Team raising a query about fortunes-off - the fortune cookie database that contains offensive
fortunes.
The specific query was about Nazi quotes from someone in Europe - I don't believe our database currently contains these, as they were purged from the BSD package from which ours is derived but I would be prepared to be very wrong here.
The point was made that if the database did contain Nazi quotes / a swastika it might make it illegal to host the content on mirrors in at least Germany or Austria.
The database dates back to 1997 or so - I note one of the upstream maintainers from around that time (Amy Lewis) having concerns about fortunes-offensive categories.
This database contains some quotes categories that probably don't fit in
with our Debian values or general societal values 25 years on - ethnic, homophobia and a few others.
This does raise the wider question: we're about to freeze for Bookworm. Removing leaf packages and packages with a small user count might be profitable at this point. Fortune-mod has some bugs at the moment
preventing testing transition and has had several NMUs prior to the latest upload.
Would it be a good idea to at least remove fortunes-off and the
corresponding data file for Bookworm at this point and going forwards?
It saves a tiny amount of space and a few translations and represents a
small simplification of Debian at minimal cost.
We don't have to ship the whole world of data just because it's available:
if anyone wants to package their own collections of fortune quotes for themselves, the instructions are readily available to do so on the 'Net.
Your thoughts, please.
The question is not whether hosting is illegal (I don't think it is).
The question is whether we promote Nazi ideology or not. And the
answer is clearly "No", and that is a fact, not sumething that is up
for discussion.
On Sat, Nov 19, 2022 at 05:31:56PM +0100, Dominik George wrote:
The question is not whether hosting is illegal (I don't think it is).
The question is whether we promote Nazi ideology or not. And the
answer is clearly "No", and that is a fact, not sumething that is up
for discussion.
Right, and has has been discussed before (more times than can be
counted, most likely) having some sort of content does not imply that
the ideology itself is promoted. The presence of the texts of the
Torah, the Christian Bible, the Quran, and other holy books in Debian
does not mean that Debian as an organization supports all of the various ideologies entailed therein.
Neither does the presence of the anarchism and fortune-anarchism
packages mean that the Debian project supports anarchy.
In other words, lets at least be consistent.
Regards,
-Roberto
--
Roberto C. Snchez
Right, and has has been discussed before (more times than can be
counted, most likely) having some sort of content does not imply that
the ideology itself is promoted. The presence of the texts of the
Torah, the Christian Bible, the Quran, and other holy books in Debian
does not mean that Debian as an organization supports all of the various ideologies entailed therein.
Right, and has has been discussed before (more times than can be
counted, most likely) having some sort of content does not imply that
the ideology itself is promoted. The presence of the texts of the
Torah, the Christian Bible, the Quran, and other holy books in Debian
does not mean that Debian as an organization supports all of the various ideologies entailed therein.
You should probably take a history book and look up again what the
author of Mein Kampf did, and compare that to what the authors of the
other texts you mention did.
Then, should you still find that murdering 6 million Jews in what is
known as the Holocaust can be compared to ideas of anarchism,
Christianity or the Islam, I fail to assume good faith.
This does raise the wider question: we're about to freeze for Bookworm. Removing leaf packages and packages with a small user count might be profitable
at this point. Fortune-mod has some bugs at the moment preventing testing transition and has had several NMUs prior to the latest upload.
[[PGP Signed Part:No public key for D19E9C7D71266DCE created at 2022-11-20T00:22:22+0100 using RSA]]
At 2022-11-19T23:07:50+0100, Dominik George wrote:
Right, and has has been discussed before (more times than can be
counted, most likely) having some sort of content does not imply that
the ideology itself is promoted. The presence of the texts of the
Torah, the Christian Bible, the Quran, and other holy books in Debian
does not mean that Debian as an organization supports all of the various >> > ideologies entailed therein.
You should probably take a history book and look up again what the
author of Mein Kampf did, and compare that to what the authors of the
other texts you mention did.
You should probably read Numbers, Joshua, and Judges (attend
particularly to the fate of the Midianites), as well as the centuries of history of Christian and Muslim expansion and global colonization.
Then, should you still find that murdering 6 million Jews in what is
known as the Holocaust can be compared to ideas of anarchism,
Christianity or the Islam, I fail to assume good faith.
It's a good thing we take so little time to remember the non-Jewish
victims of the Holocaust, isn't it (non-heterosexuals, Roma, Slavs,
the mentally ill or disabled, communists, labor organizers, and non-conformists of many sorts). Let's pay particularly little attention
to those that might be going on today.
I concede that anarchists have made a poor showing in the slaughter sweepstakes of global history. As in Spain from 1936-1939, we usually
find that liberal capitalists, authoritarian communists, royalist revanchists, and the Roman Catholic Church, all frequently in conflict
with each other, can come rapidly to an ecumenical consensus, even under circumstances of war, that democratic socialists and everyone to the
left of them need to be expediently liquidated and utterly forgotten.
On that note, to indulge in recollection of institutional memory here, I believe it was our second DPL Bruce Perens who first decreed that "fortunes-off" needed to be excised from the formerly monolithic cookie collection for the fortune(1) program; it was not thus segregated by our upstream. His rationale was that the Debian distribution badly needed
to be made more palatable to the tender sensibilities of corporations
that might otherwise find no excuse to make a deal with Red Hat Software instead. Debian's "apt", now widely recognized as a terrific innovation
in package management due to its automatic dependency resolution with cycle-breaking, was forcibly renamed at Bruce's direction from "deity",
which he also thought might unduly alarm the tender-hearted
philanthropic sensibilities in C suites throughout Silicon Valley.
By autocratic pronouncements such as these, many years ago the Debian distribution was molded and reshaped to make itself more congruent with
the demands of U.S. tech sector capitalism. The problem with this is
less that it situates Debian more comfortably within what we might term
a militantly centrist Anglo-American politics (with Schumpeterian
"creative destruction" for tech entrepreneurs and venture capitalists followed by pervasive rent-seeking and financialization as a firm
matures), than that people don't critically examine these processes and acknowledge them as themselves inherently political. This very
paragraph, if uttered aloud in a Fortune 50 workplace in front of the
right (or wrong) ears, might mark one as "not a team player" and unfit
for professional advancement. (At the same time, if you share your
ideas for market disruption or rent extraction discreetly to the right management consultants who can then vouch for you, the sky's the limit,
if you have a way to cash out your options/cryptos before the people
higher than you on the pyramid do.)
Debian can discard fortunes-off if it wants to; I'm not sure I could
motivate myself to vote in a GR regarding that question if it came to
pass. But if any Debian contributor thinks that by doing so we make
Debian somehow more "ideologically neutral", or less encumbered by
political doctrine, that person is as self-deluded as anyone who finds a Rosetta stone in _The Protocols of the Elders of Zion_.
Regards,
fortune-mod has no bugs that prevent testing migration,
it just needs a source-only upload.
I'm personally fine to defend the "less neutral" position we take by
dropping fortunes-off which is total garbage.
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention
in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some ofrational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention
in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
<3
On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson
<g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some ofrational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention >> > > in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS. >> > >
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even
started :(
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source-amd64-all-into-unstable/
At 2022-11-20T11:41:56+0100, Pierre-Elliott Bcue wrote:
I'm personally fine to defend the "less neutral" position we take by dropping fortunes-off which is total garbage.
I'll stop here. That's 5 out of 5, none of which advocates the
oppression of any group based on ethnic or ideologic categories.
Am 20. November 2022 23:04:05 MEZ schrieb Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org>: >>On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 10:45:15PM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson
<g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of >>> > > the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is >>> > > material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention >>> > > in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries >>> > > that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS. >>> > >rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even
started :(
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source-amd64-all-into-unstable/
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even
started :(
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source -amd64-all-into-unstable/
On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 10:45:15PM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even
started :(
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source-amd64-all-into-unstable/
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
Are you volunteering to pick up the package and review its contents,
removing the worst stuff that is clearly *not* fit for us to publish?
In its previous state it included:
* content that is downright illegal in many jurisdictions
* content that is impossible to justify against Debian's stated
values
so simply undoing the NMU here is clearly not an acceptable route
forward.
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 12:07:53AM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
Am 20. November 2022 23:04:05 MEZ schrieb Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org>:
On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 10:45:15PM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson
<g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of >>> > > the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is >>> > > material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retentionrational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries >>> > > that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even >>started :(
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source-amd64-all-into-unstable/
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
Are you volunteering to pick up the package and review its contents,
removing the worst stuff that is clearly *not* fit for us to publish?
In its previous state it included:
* content that is downright illegal in many jurisdictions
* content that is impossible to justify against Debian's stated values
"Steve" == Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> writes:
At 2022-11-20T23:55:52+0000, Steve McIntyre wrote:
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
Are you volunteering to pick up the package and review its contents, removing the worst stuff that is clearly *not* fit for us to publish?
You adopt the aspect of Mephistopheles, sir. Alas, I have limited time
and a more preferred vehicle through which I would return to package maintainership in main (if I don't try Colin Watson's patience).
Please, keep in mind that in Germany the nazi propaganda is out-of-law
but in some other countires out-of-law is the use of the name of the
profet (whoever he is). So, law compliance might not be as easy as you pretend to be unless OUR ONLY culture is considered (which by the
way?).
On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 12:28:59PM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
At 2022-11-20T11:41:56+0100, Pierre-Elliott Bcue wrote:
I'm personally fine to defend the "less neutral" position we take by dropping fortunes-off which is total garbage.
I'll stop here. That's 5 out of 5, none of which advocates the
oppression of any group based on ethnic or ideologic categories.
So are you volunteering to adopt the package and do the work of fixing
it up to remove the garbage that our users SHOULDN'T be subjected to
through our archive?
This isn't Sodom and Gomorrah; the package shouldn't be spared from
death because you found 5 good fortunes in it.
This package is a fossilized collection of fortunes that some random
people on Usenet found funny or otherwise worthy of inclusion over 25
years ago.
There are subcollections of fortunes in this package that are
explicitly *categorized* as racist, homophobic, and misogynistic.
The package IS garbage.
I've looked at those files, the categorizations are not incorrect, and
there is no redeeming value in shipping such things in Debian.
If someone wants to sift through the contents of fortunes-off to
separate the wheat from the chaff, fine, let them do it.
But the presence of some good fortunes in the package doesn't compel
anyone to keep it, nor does rightly pointing out the garbage that's in
it incur an obligation to do the work to filter out only the stuff
that conflicts with the project's Diversity Statement.
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention
in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
[[PGP Signed Part:No public key for D19E9C7D71266DCE created at 2022-11-20T19:28:52+0100 using RSA]]
At 2022-11-20T11:41:56+0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
I'm personally fine to defend the "less neutral" position we take by
dropping fortunes-off which is total garbage.
"Total garbage." Have you _read_ it?
"G" == G Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:
Gesendet: Montag, 21. November 2022 um 03:10 Uhr
Von: "Roberto A. Foglietta" <roberto.foglietta@gmail.com>
An: "Steve McIntyre" <steve@einval.com>
Cc: "Michael Neuffer" <neuffer@neuffer.com>, debian-project@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Fortunes-off - do we need this as a package for Bookworm?
On Mon, 21 Nov 2022 at 00:59, Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> wrote:
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 12:07:53AM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
Am 20. November 2022 23:04:05 MEZ schrieb Mattia Rizzolo <mattia@debian.org>:
On Sun, Nov 20, 2022 at 10:45:15PM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
On 11/20/22 22:14, Roberto A. Foglietta wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson
<g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some ofrational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention
in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
<3
I can only very much agree to this.
I also wholly agree, alas it seems we already lost before this even >>started :(
https://tracker.debian.org/news/1385116/accepted-fortune-mod-11991-72-source-amd64-all-into-unstable/
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
Are you volunteering to pick up the package and review its contents, removing the worst stuff that is clearly *not* fit for us to publish?
In its previous state it included:
* content that is downright illegal in many jurisdictions
Obviously illegal material should not be distributed. How many of
these quotes do you find that violate the law in some countries?
Please, keep in mind that in Germany the nazi propaganda is out-of-law
but in some other countires out-of-law is the use of the name of the
profet (whoever he is). So, law compliance might not be as easy as you pretend to be unless OUR ONLY culture is considered (which by the
way?).
* content that is impossible to justify against Debian's stated values
Nice, so we are going to burn "Mein Kampf" in such a way nobody will
be able to read it?
Every library should do that, conforming to their
values. Burning books, uhm where we saw these before? So, the great difference here is to explicitly tell the reader that the content can
be offensive in some culture or under some PoV.
This is exactly what the -o option does
-o Choose only from potentially offensive aphorisms.
Please, elaborate your opposition because it is quite generic,
everything above considered.
Indeed; my action is not irreversible.
Anyone who wants to put their name to explicitly racist, sexist and
pro-nazi material in Debian is free to re-upload it.
"Jonathan" == Jonathan Dowland <jmtd@debian.org> writes:
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 12:07:53AM +0100, Michael Neuffer wrote:
As it was an NMU, this should be easily rectified.
Don't let cancel culture win.
Indeed; my action is not irreversible.
Anyone who has a problem with what I did and believes I should be
censured or subject to some other form of disciplinary process, please
just go ahead and do it, don't beat about the bush.
Anyone who wants to put their name to explicitly racist, sexist and
pro-nazi material in Debian is free to re-upload it.
"G" == G Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> writes:
G> By your metric, so is the Hebrew Bible. For all the slaughter,
G> xenophobia, and ethno-religious supremacism in it, there's some
G> good stuff as well. I find the exasperated jeremiads of some of
G> the later prophets relatable and applicable to modern life,
G> though I acknowledge that my interpretive frame would alarm many
G> practitioners of faiths that hold that work as sacred.
I appreciated your first messages in this thread.
I think perhaps you have continued in the same style without fully considering the implications of doing so.
Trying to create a reduction like you did above particularly on a
topic like religion or like the worth of someone else's sacred text is
going to (as another person pointed out) start a culture war.
Your point will be lost in the strength of others reactions.
I do think there are constructive things you could do:
* Maintain the package with filtering if you believe that's best.
* Maintain the package without filtering if you believe that's best;
take the position of being a maintainer and force those who disagree
with you to fight the uphill battle of overriding a maintainer.
* State your support to be counted in any determination of consensus
and leave it at that.
But please don't fan the flames.
The specific query was about Nazi quotes from someone in Europe - I
don't believe our database currently contains these, as they were
purged from the BSD package from which ours is derived but I would
be prepared to be very wrong here.
The point was made that if the database did contain Nazi quotes / a
swastika it might make it illegal to host the content on mirrors in
at least Germany or Austria.
❯ apt source fortunes-off
❯ grep -ri "Mein Kampf" fortune-mod-1.99.1/datfiles | wc -l
52
The question is not whether hosting is illegal (I don't think it is).
The question is whether we promote Nazi ideology or not. And the
answer is clearly "No", and that is a fact, not sumething that is up
for discussion.
The broad mass of a nation... will more easily fall victim to a
big lie than to a small one.
I only have so many fights in me. Cajoling man page authors to use a
new "MR" macro to put hyperlinked cross-references in their documents, I expect to take the preponderance of my feeble persuasive energies for
some time.[3]
[3] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/groff.git/tree/NEWS?id=eac39afe3e7a86f3adbfb02ff5e33bfd69d4c224#n224
[3] Still called "FTP masters"[4]. Even long after FTP is deprecated
and Git repositories the world over have gotten their main branches
renamed to avoid terminology redolent of unjust power inequities,
we'll cling to our antiquated terms to the bitter end, won't we?
I have never once interpreted them as promoting Nazi ideology. Rather, I
have always interpreted them as being a useful reminder of the sorts of things that Nazis said and stood for [...]
At 2022-11-21T07:58:29-0700, Sam Hartman wrote:
Thanks, Sam. (And Tomas, to whom I have an unfinished reply lingering
in my postponed folder.)
But, since you asked, that's my sketch for a future fortunes-nsfw or whatever. (Let's please be honest enough to admit that the original
purpose of the package's segregation was attempted avoidance of
interactions with U.S. corporate HR departments.)
But please don't fan the flames.
Fear not; I feel my resolve flagging apace. I should see a doctor about
my inability to sustain a flame war. There may be a drug for me.
I am not always - nor, indeed, often - pleased to see one of these
quotes come up in a new terminal, but they do serve as helpful / useful reminders, [..]
"Roberto A. Foglietta" <roberto.foglietta@gmail.com> wrote on 20/11/2022 at 22:14:35+0100:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention
in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS.
rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
Cancel culture would be shaming those having done the content/package,
trying to hide it so that no one could see it (it's on GitHub and no one
here plans on having it removed from there) and burn on a bench anyone
asking for it to be back.
The mere thing I did is to state that it's garbage to me and it should
be thrown out from the archive because we have better stuff to do with
our free time.
Your answer: "cancel culture".
I guess it's supposed to be a "rational approach"? This is rich.
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 11:18:48AM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
"Roberto A. Foglietta" <roberto.foglietta@gmail.com> wrote on 20/11/2022 at 22:14:35+0100:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2022 at 21:42, G. Branden Robinson <g.branden.robinson@gmail.com> wrote:
Thank you for, perhaps inadvertently, compelling me to review some of
the content of the package. I can now say that I am certain there is
material of worth in the fortunes-off package and support its retention >> in the Debian distribution. A review process for individual entries
that are incompatible with the project's values is manifest in the BTS. >>
rational approach vs cancel culture: 1 vs 0
<3
Cancel culture would be shaming those having done the content/package, trying to hide it so that no one could see it (it's on GitHub and no one here plans on having it removed from there) and burn on a bench anyone asking for it to be back.
The mere thing I did is to state that it's garbage to me and it should
be thrown out from the archive because we have better stuff to do with
our free time.
Your answer: "cancel culture".
I guess it's supposed to be a "rational approach"? This is rich.
I think the bit of "rational approach" is to see *why* the package was
called "offensive" (because $DPL-of-a-long-time-ago decided that certain subjects are offensive and they shouldn't be in the "regular" package),
and whether it actually results in a net positive (answer: probably not, depending on your point of view).
If the "offensive" package were, in fact, mostly nazi and other such
similar content then you would have a point; but I in fact used to have "fortune -o" in my .bashrc file, and, no, it really isn't. You might get personally insulted occasionally, but that's about it (and if you can't
stand that, then, well, don't install the "offensive" package and/or
don't use the "-o" parameter to fortune -- I mean, there are *two* barriers!).
Perhaps if there is something in the "offensive" package that we can
point to and declare really problematic, we can file bugs about that?
But just removing the whole package because "oh no" feels like the baby/bathwater story and, yes, cancel culture.
On Mon, Nov 21, 2022 at 11:18:48AM +0100, Pierre-Elliott Bcue wrote:
"Roberto A. Foglietta" <roberto.foglietta@gmail.com> wrote on 20/11/2022 at 22:14:35+0100:
I think the bit of "rational approach" is to see *why* the package was
called "offensive" (because $DPL-of-a-long-time-ago decided that certain subjects are offensive and they shouldn't be in the "regular" package),
and whether it actually results in a net positive (answer: probably not, depending on your point of view).
If the "offensive" package were, in fact, mostly nazi and other such
similar content then you would have a point; but I in fact used to have "fortune -o" in my .bashrc file, and, no, it really isn't. You might get personally insulted occasionally, but that's about it (and if you can't
stand that, then, well, don't install the "offensive" package and/or
don't use the "-o" parameter to fortune -- I mean, there are *two* barriers!).
Perhaps if there is something in the "offensive" package that we can
point to and declare really problematic, we can file bugs about that?
But just removing the whole package because "oh no" feels like the baby/bathwater story and, yes, cancel culture.
--
w@uter.{be,co.za}
wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}
I will have a Tin-Actinium-Potassium mixture, thanks.
(...)
The utility of a separate package depends on how much work it is to
produce it. That was the renaming bug that jmtd fixed, I think.
I think removing Hitler/Goebbels quotes from an obscure game is worthwhile: it stops any association / any *Debian encourages Nazism* and means that we don't have to worry about hosting it anywhere at all.
Dropping fortunes-offensive completely (and the associated
translations/extra files in Italian
Andrew M.A. Cater dijo [Wed, Dec 14, 2022 at 07:33:53AM +0000]:
(...)
The utility of a separate package depends on how much work it is to
produce it. That was the renaming bug that jmtd fixed, I think.
I think removing Hitler/Goebbels quotes from an obscure game is worthwhile: it stops any association / any *Debian encourages Nazism* and means that we don't have to worry about hosting it anywhere at all.
Although during this discussion it was shown via several examples (and
not one counterexample TTBOMK) that, while fortunes-off does have nazi-leaders snippets, it's not something that can be read as
endorsing those views, but just the opposite -- either ridiculing
them, pointing out how flawed the ideas were, or somesuch.
I'd be careful in that: Debian's user (and contributor) base hasI have been around long enough to remember when in 2004 a very prominent developer of Chinese origins hurriedly left the project when the
expanded a lot since Day Zero (or well, I've been looking at it
since Day One or so). Nowadays there are probably believing Muslims
or national Chinese around, who may be hurt by things "we",
steeped in white male western culture we may not even see. So the
ability to listen, to overcome the "nah, that ain't so bad" first
reaction becomes ever more important.
I have been around long enough to remember when in 2004 a very
prominent developer of Chinese origins
hurriedly left the project when the d-i (?) team refused to mention
Taiwan in the way he preferred.
So, there is not much that we have not already seen...
I am late to this thread, so I will just say that:
- I appreciate a lot of what Branden and Sam wrote here
- the outcome is sad
At 2022-12-17T19:02:11-0000, Marco d'Itri wrote:
--snip--
Another thing I find objectionable: exhibitionist etymological
offense-taking [...]
White-knighting can be, and often is, another form of tech-bro alpha
dogging [...]
Did you see the part where I ITA-ed fortune-mod?
No one has yet responded my invitation to be a technical consultant to
save my geriatric packaging skills from embarrassment. This may be
because people are easily fatigued of reading my emails.
I'd like to quote a friend of mine who fights a lot of these battles.Great insight.
Thank you! I remember getting into a lot of arguments with you back inMostly you and a few other people adding new meanings to the DFSG. :-)
the day. I can't remember what any of them was about. 🤣
No, that's good.- the outcome is sadDid you see the part where I ITA-ed fortune-mod?
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