On 2022-04-08 14 h 35, Julian Andres Klode wrote:> I think individual
travel to DebConf and similar events is somewhat> out of our control, as
is the personal behavior of individual> submitters.
I'm not an expert on estimating CO2 output, but I'm pretty sure DebConf
is our largest contribution to CO2 emissions, mainly because of air travel.
The question I've been asking myself these past few years is: "Are
in-person DebConfs worth it?" I think the answer is very clearly yes.
Hi
it just occurred to me that despite the climate crisis about to
destroy us all we don't really have anything in place to monitor
and reduce our carbon emissions.
I believe we need to commit ourselves to reducing this
it just occurred to me that despite the climate crisis about to
destroy us all we don't really have anything in place to monitor
and reduce our carbon emissions.
I believe we need to commit ourselves to reducing this, but I fear
Hi
it just occurred to me that despite the climate crisis about to
destroy us all we don't really have anything in place to monitor
and reduce our carbon emissions.
I believe we need to commit ourselves to reducing this, but I fear
the only way this could happen is via a general resolution amending
the constitution for climate goals, so it becomes binding.
...
# Actions
...
Budget: We need to determine our current CO2 emissions as a project,
and then define a roadmap to carbon neutrality by an acceptable date,
I think 2035 or 2040 are commonly referenced.
...
# Things out of our control
I think individual travel to DebConf and similar events is somewhat
out of our control, as is the personal behavior of individual
submitters.
While I see no problem with the services of Debian to turn carbon
neutral, Debian should think of ways not to end here. What else could we do?
You have a point. And I can agree that Debian should not do anythingWhile I see no problem with the services of Debian to turn carbonplease do not transform Debian in an activist project (i wont comment
neutral, Debian should think of ways not to end here. What else could we do?
on the carbon neutrality proposal). Debian has one goal: provide a
universal operating system. this is where it starts and this is where
it ends, and that's all the "else" that we can do.
You're free to support all your passions, missions and projects
OUTSIDE of Debian. The Debian project is not your echo chamber for
your activism.
While I see no problem with the services of Debian to turn carbon
neutral, Debian should think of ways not to end here. What else could we do?
please do not transform Debian in an activist project (i wont comment
on the carbon neutrality proposal). Debian has one goal: provide a
universal operating system. this is where it starts and this is where
it ends, and that's all the "else" that we can do.
You're free to support all your passions, missions and projects
OUTSIDE of Debian. The Debian project is not your echo chamber for
your activism.
While I see no problem with the services of Debian to turn carbon
neutral, Debian should think of ways not to end here. What else could we do?
please do not transform Debian in an activist project (i wont comment
on the carbon neutrality proposal). Debian has one goal: provide a
universal operating system. this is where it starts and this is where
it ends, and that's all the "else" that we can do.
You're free to support all your passions, missions and projects
OUTSIDE of Debian. The Debian project is not your echo chamber for
your activism.
On 13.04.22 17:01, Sandro Tosi wrote:I have seen more heated (pun intended) discussions on Debian's lists
You have a point. And I can agree that Debian should not do anythingWhile I see no problem with the services of Debian to turn carbonplease do not transform Debian in an activist project (i wont comment
neutral, Debian should think of ways not to end here. What else
could we do?
on the carbon neutrality proposal). Debian has one goal: provide a
universal operating system. this is where it starts and this is where
it ends, and that's all the "else" that we can do.
that is not part of being an universal operating system.
You're free to support all your passions, missions and projects
OUTSIDE of Debian. The Debian project is not your echo chamber for
your activism.
Let me rephrase this. What else can a universal operating system do for climate neutrality?
So, I think that if Debian must think about climate change, probably it
must be focused on energy efficiency to gain more results.
For example, people could be encouraged to batch bug fixes into larger uploads rather than uploading them immediately, use compression
algorithms that emit less CO2.
On 2022-04-08 20:35:27, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
it just occurred to me that despite the climate crisis about to
destroy us all we don't really have anything in place to monitor
and reduce our carbon emissions.
Agreed.
I believe we need to commit ourselves to reducing this, but I fear
Also, agreed.
I think Debian should commit to become carbon neutral, and then become >climate positive, and make that clear to others so that it may encourage >other projects to do the same.
I think the path to doing this starts with the commitment from the
project. If we can get that commitment, then we are a long ways towards >making this happen.
Then it is about determining the organization's carbon footprint. There
are organizations that can assist in determining this (eg. Offsetra).
Finally, deciding on a way to reconcile that footprint. This may be the >contentious aspect, as not everyone will agree that the different
mechanisms that exist are the right ways to do this, but perhaps we can
delay this discussion until it is clear that Debian is committed to
making this happen.
please do not transform Debian in an activist project (i wont comment
on the carbon neutrality proposal). Debian has one goal: provide a
universal operating system. this is where it starts and this is where
it ends, and that's all the "else" that we can do.
You're free to support all your passions, missions and projects
OUTSIDE of Debian. The Debian project is not your echo chamber for
your activism.
Budget: We need to determine our current CO2 emissions as a project,
and then define a roadmap to carbon neutrality by an acceptable date,
I would be wary of the legitimacy and effectiveness of carbon offset products. In Australia the carbon credit/offset scheme was recently
revealed to be fraudulent in many cases and I would not be surprised if
it were found to be similar in other countries. I think a better path
would be to work on transitioning our energy usage to renewable sources
and reducing our energy requirements.
This also has the advantage that, whether or not the specific framing of
this thread is inspiring to a given Debian contributor, everyone wants
longer laptop battery life and lower power bills for their data centers.
Am Wed, Apr 13, 2022 at 10:20:16AM -0700 schrieb Russ Allbery:
This also has the advantage that, whether or not the specific framing of this thread is inspiring to a given Debian contributor, everyone wants longer laptop battery life and lower power bills for their data centers.
While I personally absolutely subscribe the need to reduce the carbon footprint I think we should focus on those points (battery life and
power bill) since this also gets those persons on our side who do not
believe in climate crisis. I mean, it does not really matter why people behave correctly as long as they do so. Thus I personally focus on
putting rather those terms in the subject.
On Fri, 2022-04-08 at 20:35 +0200, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
Budget: We need to determine our current CO2 emissions as a project,
and then define a roadmap to carbon neutrality by an acceptable date,
I would be wary of the legitimacy and effectiveness of carbon offset products. In Australia the carbon credit/offset scheme was recently
revealed to be fraudulent in many cases and I would not be surprised if
it were found to be similar in other countries. I think a better path
would be to work on transitioning our energy usage to renewable sources
and reducing our energy requirements.
Sponsors: When receiving sponsored resources like electricity, we
should inquire about the carbon footprint of those resources, and
what the sponsor's approach to environmental affairs is.
Budget: We need to determine our current CO2 emissions as a project,
and then define a roadmap to carbon neutrality by an acceptable date,
I think 2035 or 2040 are commonly referenced. This is likely to be exponential. We should use project funds to hire an expert consulting
firm to do this for us.
Monitoring: Once we have determined our CO2 emissions and defined a
roadmap, we need to constantly monitor our CO2 emissions to make sure
we stay on target. I propose quarterly environmental impact reports.
On 4/8/22 20:35, Julian Andres Klode wrote:
Sponsors: When receiving sponsored resources like electricity, we
should inquire about the carbon footprint of those resources, and
what the sponsor's approach to environmental affairs is.
Most of the time, "green energy" is just "green washing". If you buy "green energy" in France or Swiss (these are the only places I know for sure what's going on), you get a higher electricity bill, and a slot in the green energy consumers. But the electricity may well come from the nearby coal power plant, even if you bought a slot of green electricity.
IMO, you're much better off fighting this at another level: lobbying your government to do what you think is right.
Budget: We need to determine our current CO2 emissions as a project,
and then define a roadmap to carbon neutrality by an acceptable date,
I think 2035 or 2040 are commonly referenced. This is likely to be exponential. We should use project funds to hire an expert consulting
firm to do this for us.
If I had my say, I would vote against (wasting) money for such an expert,
and wasting contributor time on this. I'm tired of reading about CO2
emission in the data center, when old servers are just trashed, and when electricity production is out of the control of the data center owner (see above).
I pushed my company to recycle old server and re-use them as long as possible, and we went from a 10 years lifetime to 15. That's IMO a much
nicer and efficient approach for protecting the environment than just the green-washing CO2 propaganda.
Monitoring: Once we have determined our CO2 emissions and defined a roadmap, we need to constantly monitor our CO2 emissions to make sure
we stay on target. I propose quarterly environmental impact reports.
A quarterly environmental impact that only takes CO2 into account is only part of the reality. Do you have any idea about the environmental impact of mining these rare minerals needed to produce a server? Another example: producing the aluminum needed for a server chassis use a huge amount of electricity.
Most of the time, "green energy" is just "green washing". If you buy
"green energy" in France or Swiss (these are the only places I know for
sure what's going on), you get a higher electricity bill, and a slot in
the green energy consumers. But the electricity may well come from the
nearby coal power plant, even if you bought a slot of green electricity.
Other early steps should include establishing a sub-project/group to >coordinate discussion and actions around the issue.
I still think this. Perhaps starting with a dedicated mailing list; debian-sustainability or debian-climate or debian-?
Does anyone interested in this topic feel strongly for or against the
idea of creating a list to discuss taking it further?
On Wed, Apr 20, 2022 at 10:36:34AM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
Other early steps should include establishing a sub-project/group to coordinate discussion and actions around the issue.
I still think this. Perhaps starting with a dedicated mailing list; debian-sustainability or debian-climate or debian-?
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