Hi,
In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
"most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send
your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"
I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the
only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more,
Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others,
namely the account managers.
I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will
continue if we let him.
Can we delete him from planet?
On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:[…]
In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay
close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he
blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think
blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible
too.
Hi,
In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:and blame the others, namely the account managers.
In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
"most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"
I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more, Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes,
quite horrible too.I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will continue if we let him.
I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
"most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send
your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)"
I find it not acceptable because it's written as if da-manager are the
only persons responsible for it. He of course didn't mention that he appealed, and that a vast majority rejected his appeal. Once more,
Norbert fails to recognize his own mistakes, and blame the others,
namely the account managers.
I don't want to read more of such [censored], as obviously, he will
continue if we let him.
Can we delete him from planet?
Jonathan Carter - 23.03.22, 07:38:02 CET:
On 2022/03/22 22:01, Thomas Goirand wrote:[…]
In his latest post, Norbert wrote:
I agree that his posts aren't appropriate for planet (I didn't pay
close attention but noticed at least one post recently where he
blames politics for not being part of Debian anymore). And I think
blaming DAM when they only did their job on planet is quite horrible
too.
I do not agree. Neither with the removal of his blog from Debian
Planet, nor with the removal of this Debian developer status.
But I do not see a chance to convince anyone here.
So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
allowed here.
So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
[...]So I leave it at stating my disagreement. I hope this much is still
allowed here.
I consider large parts of Debian to be a toxic environment to me, where
I always have to fear being attacked for just expressing my point of
view. And I disagree with double standards. Some may express their point
of view without being attacked, others may not. Regardless of whether
their language is respectful or not. At least that has been my
experience in the last years.
On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's
going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he
hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last >remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest
in changing.
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:that he has had no interest in changing.
So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last remarks, but about patterns of behaviour
If you wish to still follow his blog for some reason, you can still subscribe directly, but at this point it doesn't belong on Planet Debian.
"most of my activity around Debian has come to a complete halt (Send your thanks to da-manager@debian.org!)“
On 2022/03/23 09:37, Ingo Jürgensmann wrote:
So, are we now at a point where we ban people just because of some
silly remarks in their posts and dislikes from single other persons?
No, but I don't want people to keep feeling dread and wonder what he's
going to say every time he blogs, and he's not being constructive, he
hasn't been for a while, and this is by no means just about his last
remarks, but about patterns of behaviour that he has had no interest in changing.
If you wish to still follow his blog for some reason, you can still
subscribe directly, but at this point it doesn't belong on Planet Debian.
I actually believe it would be quite problematic if any single DD were allowed to take actions on another contributor based on their own
judgment. That does include the DPL. 5.1.4 isn't applicable here,
because there is someone who has responsibility. And the DPL should be
more careful than others to respect the project's rules, not less.
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
Thomas Goirand wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?
Why does this need to be brought to -project?
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
I went bold and reverted this removal; the detailed reason why and the
Planet rules I believe Jonathan has breached are in the commit message.
... and if there was any doubt I could possibly vote you above NOTA, here it goes away. Continuing harassment of Norbert is not appropriate.
The toxic environment remaining here must stop.
You're not the first one with the same reaction, so here's why.
Norbert publicly lies, writting he's not packaging in Debian "thanks to the da-manager", why should we care? Quite the opposite, isn't it normal to publicly debunk it then?
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 02:51:10PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
I went bold and reverted this removal; the detailed reason why and the Planet rules I believe Jonathan has breached are in the commit message.
I'm not going to play commit ping pong, but why do you think it is appropriate to continue to have someone on Planet Debian whom we have
banned from the project, and whose appeal for that ban was rejected?
Honestly, I was surprised to learn he still *was* on Planet. I don't
think it makes any sense at all to keep people on Planet Debian who we
threw out for cause.
--
w@uter.{be,co.za}
wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 03:37:27PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
You're not the first one with the same reaction, so here's why.
Norbert publicly lies, writting he's not packaging in Debian "thanks to the da-manager", why should we care? Quite the opposite, isn't it normal to publicly debunk it then?
How would he "lie" by claiming that any new packaging (NEW sources or binaries) by him has been hobbled by the da-manager?
That's a pretty undisputable fact, what can be disputed is whether the da-manager has been right doing so.
And a number of people has been disagreeing with that, some to the point of leaving, temporarily or not, because of the way Norbert gets treated. Including prolific contributors, such as Karsten Merker or Dmitry Bogatov.
Meow!
--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Eight legs good, four legs bad! -- when your drider pwns a
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ smelly goodie centaur.
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ Rearkick OP -- my grandpa's brother-in-law got one-shotted
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀⠀⠀ from full hp in RL, please nerf!
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
I went bold and reverted this removal; the detailed reason why and the
Planet rules I believe Jonathan has breached are in the commit message.
On a sidenote, I would like to urge the people who did so in this
thread to stop using the word "toxic" to describe that someone is
being called out for bullying, abusive behavior, discriminatory, or (passive-)agressive remarks. This is victim reversal.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 02:51:10PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
I went bold and reverted this removal; the detailed reason why and the
Planet rules I believe Jonathan has breached are in the commit message.
I'm not going to play commit ping pong, but why do you think it is appropriate to continue to have someone on Planet Debian whom we have
banned from the project, and whose appeal for that ban was rejected?
Honestly, I was surprised to learn he still *was* on Planet. I don't
think it makes any sense at all to keep people on Planet Debian who we
threw out for cause.
While I agree that Jonathan has abused his powers and should not have removed anyone from planet on his own, your argumentation is toxic in itself.
There's no link between Jonathan being the current DPL ("has abused his powers")
Can we delete him from planet?
Meh. If you want to do so, be my guest, but I fear this would be seen a
bit badly compared to the "gain" you expect from it.
I went bold and reverted this removal; the detailed reason why and theCan we delete him from planet?Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
Planet rules I believe Jonathan has breached are in the commit
message.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 08:38:02AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?
Any DD can do that... oh wait that includes me... done!
I went bold and reverted this removal;
I note that nobody in this discussion so far has tried to argue that
we'll somehow be poorer for being less exposed to his writings
but only that some procedure might not have been followed properly.
P.S. the resort to an argument about procedure does seem very
reminiscent of the recently referenced wartime sabotage manual.
On 22/03/2022 23:37, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
Can we delete him from planet?
Meh. If you want to do so, be my guest, but I fear this would be seen a
bit badly compared to the "gain" you expect from it.
I saw this message yesterday, and left me thinking how nobody seems
too concerned with how Preining's actions have impacted and continue
to impact members of this project.
Adam Borowski - 23.03.22, 16:46:48 CET:
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 03:37:27PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
You're not the first one with the same reaction, so here's why.
Norbert publicly lies, writting he's not packaging in Debian "thanks
to the da-manager", why should we care? Quite the opposite, isn't
it normal to publicly debunk it then?
How would he "lie" by claiming that any new packaging (NEW sources or
binaries) by him has been hobbled by the da-manager?
That's a pretty undisputable fact, what can be disputed is whether the
da-manager has been right doing so.
And a number of people has been disagreeing with that, some to the
point of leaving, temporarily or not, because of the way Norbert gets
treated. Including prolific contributors, such as Karsten Merker or
Dmitry Bogatov.
I am astonished to see, again, how people here seem to project all
badness in the world onto a single former, cause expelled, Debian
developer. Especially one with whom I had zero problems with and one who contributed a huge lot of work.
I believe it to be about time for people to look into themselves for
their contribution to all of this conflict. It is always easier to bash someone else, I know, but it does not make Debian a friendlier place to begin with. It just increases the fear to be bashed for speaking out
one's own truth. I really still hope that Debian community can do better than that.
In Debian, and very importantly also in the world, we need more unity,
not more division. But this is only achievable when everyone does their homework. One important step here would be to be more careful when using
a word like "lies".
It is clear to me, beyond doubt, that there is disagreement here that
has not been resolved. One can paper over this disagreement with
exercising power. But it does not help the project in the long run.
There is work to be done. Uneasy work. But important to do, nonetheless.
On 2022-03-23 21:27, Philip Hands wrote:
I note that nobody in this discussion so far has tried to argue that
we'll somehow be poorer for being less exposed to his writings
It's not fair to dismiss his frequent KDE and TeX reports like hat.
but only that some procedure might not have been followed properly.
Observing processes and procedures is what gives us confidence in a fair
and just system. That's obviously important to many of us, otherwise we wouldn't have so many discussions about and votes on them.
I find your off-handed dismissal ("only") of this extremely ignorant and disrespectful to those of us to whom this is important, to the point of
being offensive.
[Note that I'm not speaking for or against any action taken here, as
that is completely irrelevant to my point.]
P.S. the resort to an argument about procedure does seem very
reminiscent of the recently referenced wartime sabotage manual.
This is such a toxic comment.
There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for why people value
procedures regarding punitive measures -- see above -- and not only do
you take a jab at those people, you actually have the gall to insinuate
that this might be an act of deliberate sabotage.
Your conduct blatantly and obviously violates the "be respectful" and
"assume good faith" rules of our community, and it's entirely upsetting
to see your confidence in believing that you are actually championing
these principles with your message, when in fact you are demonstrating
utter disregard for them.
I note that nobody in this discussion so far has tried to argue that
we'll somehow be poorer for being less exposed to his writings, but only
that some procedure might not have been followed properly.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 09:35:18AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
I actually believe it would be quite problematic if any single DD were allowed to take actions on another contributor based on their own
judgment. That does include the DPL. §5.1.4 isn't applicable here,
because there is someone who has responsibility. And the DPL should be
more careful than others to respect the project's rules, not less.
While this is accurate, I believe there is a difference here.
Norbert was banned from Debian by the people who are delegated to make
that decision. He was banned from contributing to, and communicating
with, Debian.
Personally, I believe that includes Planet Debian as well. While I agree
that it would be wrong to remove someone from the Planet Debian
configuration without that background, I think that given this
background, one could easily say that the non-removal of Norbert from
Planet Debian was a simple oversight, and that therefore removing him is something that anyone can (and should!) do.
--
w@uter.{be,co.za}
wouter@{grep.be,fosdem.org,debian.org}
I am astonished to see, again, how people here seem to project all
badness in the world onto a single former, cause expelled, Debian developer. Especially one with whom I had zero problems with and one
who contributed a huge lot of work.
The amount of work one does/did will never be an excuse for one's
behaviour.
May I remind you that I am NOT banned from the project, but "ONLY"
demoted to DM!
Since my emails are not delivered to d-p, I ask you to revert your
statement on d-p, since it is a lie.
Norbert was banned from Debian by the people who are delegated to make
that decision. He was banned from contributing to, and communicating
with, Debian.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 09:35:18AM +0100, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
I actually believe it would be quite problematic if any single DD were
allowed to take actions on another contributor based on their own
judgment. That does include the DPL. §5.1.4 isn't applicable here,
because there is someone who has responsibility. And the DPL should be
more careful than others to respect the project's rules, not less.
While this is accurate, I believe there is a difference here.
Norbert was banned from Debian by the people who are delegated to make
that decision. He was banned from contributing to, and communicating
with, Debian.
This entire thread makes me worry quite a bit about the current state
of Debian, so I feel the need to respond to several posts in it.
Tl;dr: Debian should be a project where everyone can feel comfortable
to contribute. That is not possible if we allow bullying to stand unchallenged.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 07:23:25AM +0100, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 09:01:27PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
In my opinion it seems better to let it be [...]
I understand this impulse and in my personal life, this is often what I do.
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 09:01:27PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
In my opinion it seems better to let it be. Granted, Norbert's
behaviour comes across as resenful, which isn't very constructive,
but trying to respond in kind risks making things worse rather
than better.
I saw this message yesterday, and left me thinking how nobody seems too concerned with how Preining's actions have impacted and continue to impact members of this project.
It is funny (not) to see the person I called an asshole back then -for stating publicly that he chooses to intentionally misgender transgender people- is still having opinions in this thread. It is all very polite, of course; after all, nobody really cares about the people who get hurt.
Debian keeps showing for anybody to see that as long as you keep your tone down, you will be allowed to bully, harass, and generally make others miserable; that nobody cares enough to stop it.
On woensdag 23 maart 2022 14:05:57 CET Antonio Terceiro wrote:
¹ of course correlation is not causation, I am not saying the perceived
growth is happening *because* of the CoC etc.
Indeed. It could also be *in spite of*.
There's an equal amount of evidence for that: zero.
Mailing lists seem to be really quiet compared to older times, traffic
on IRC is also far less traffic than it used to be. Maybe
communication shifted to other media or maybe DDs are more silent
because they fear to be punished in some way or another for what they say.
I see that being thrown around a lot, yet nobody has never received any real sanction in the project for giving their opinion on a topic,
Self-censorship is also a thing.
I could say there's a correlation between self-censorship and lower ML traffic,
but for that there's also an equal amount of evidence: zero
Ulrike Uhlig - 23.03.22, 17:02:14 CET:
On a sidenote, I would like to urge the people who did so in this
thread to stop using the word "toxic" to describe that someone is
being called out for bullying, abusive behavior, discriminatory, or (passive-)agressive remarks. This is victim reversal.
This is disagreement.
Yet, beyond doubt, from what I see here, there is unresolved
disagreement whether what you state as fact is actually factually true.
Calling a fact, what is not a fact, may in itself be abusive and may in itself make someone else a victim.
I am astonished to see, again, how people here seem to project all
badness in the world onto a single former, cause expelled, Debian
developer. Especially one with whom I had zero problems with and one who contributed a huge lot of work.
I believe it to be about time for people to look into themselves for
their contribution to all of this conflict. It is always easier to bash someone else, I know, but it does not make Debian a friendlier place to begin with.
It just increases the fear to be bashed for speaking out one's own truth. I really still hope that Debian community can do better than that.
There is work to be done. Uneasy work. But important to do, nonetheless.
There is work to be done. Uneasy work. But important to do,
nonetheless.
There was work to be done. It has been done. The result is that
Norbert was sanctioned. Please accept that and stop pretending that
the debate is still ongoing.
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 05:07:06PM +0100, Diederik de Haas wrote:
On woensdag 23 maart 2022 14:05:57 CET Antonio Terceiro wrote:
of course correlation is not causation, I am not saying the perceived growth is happening *because* of the CoC etc.
Indeed. It could also be *in spite of*.
There's an equal amount of evidence for that: zero.
Your post suggests that until causation is proven, correlation should be ignored. Why would you think that?
There was an assertion that we are losing lots of contributors because we trying too hard to be nice. Instead of going "no they aren't", "yes, they are", Antonio got the numbers that can show such an effect.
It became exactly what it tried to prevent by all those initiatives that started like 10 years ago, like Code of Conduct etc.
this is how we want to debate among smart people.
Even better. To go from there to "those numbers mean nothing at all" is nonsense though. They are still the best way we have to check if the assertion is true. Even if they don't give a definitive answer, they do
give an indication. That has value. And the alternative is a fact-free opinion war, which has zero value.
Even if they don't give a definitive answer, they do give an indication.
Dr. Bas Wijnen - 24.03.22, 10:50:47 CET:
There was work to be done. It has been done. The result is thatJust one thing: There is no pretending there.
Norbert was sanctioned. Please accept that and stop pretending that
the debate is still ongoing.
This thread clearly shows it. The Debian community is not unequivocally
sure, i.e. in agreement, about all of this.
I see many old DDs became inactive or stepped down as a DD in
the past years, yet not many new DDs joining or being as
active as the old DDs been in the past
The fact is, Norbert's DD status has been removed, he's no longer a Debian Developer, he no longer has a @debian.org email address, he no longer has voting rights within the project, etc. It's not a time-limited removal (despite Adam's assertion that it's a temporary ban).
And, as I've stated before, we're not going to allow him to continue to either attack the project or its members, especially using the project's infrastructure doing so.
My concern is not that I can’t read his blog anymore on planet.d.o >(honestly, never read him), but how this issue has been addressed. As
others already wrote: it shouldn’t be left to a single DD to decide
whether or not to remove someone else from planet.d.o., but it should
be left to the team to decide.
Being a DPL doesn’t imply that you can act like you did in this case.
The fact is, Norbert's DD status has been removed, he's no longer a
Debian Developer, he no longer has a @debian.org email address, he no
longer has voting rights within the project, etc. It's not a
time-limited removal (despite Adam's assertion that it's a temporary
ban).
There are some that were a bit confused (thinking Norbert had a
complete ban, they may have been confusing Norbert with our
statement[1] on Daniel Pocock last year).
Norbert has continued his poor behaviour after requests, warnings,
being suspended, more requests, etc until he was kicked out of the
project.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 300 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 18:01:18 |
| Calls: | 6,707 |
| Calls today: | 1 |
| Files: | 12,239 |
| Messages: | 5,351,432 |