Please let me know
I'm not alone.
I wasn't thrilled with Steve's message; I sent him what I hope are some constructive comments privately.
Bringing up nazis is rarely going to calm things down or promote constructive discussion.
And yes, he did that.
But Adrian! You really doubled down on the tension.
I appreciate that you are frustrated and disagree strongly with some of
what Steve is saying.
I hear that you would like to have a discussion on how our diversity statement interacts with organizations people affiliatef with.
Doubling down on the nazi thing isn't going to give us a constructive or healthy discussion.
There are ways to have the discussion you are looking for that will be
more constructive and that will not promote quite so much of aflame war.
It sounds like you aren't feeling heard.
The particular example you picked is only likely to escalate things so
that none of us are hearing each other.
Please let us find a way to step back, listen to your concerns, but also respect the other people involved.
If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions,
this could get some of our members into untenable positions where
I would be worried about their safety.
On 4/7/21 7:27 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:
I wasn't thrilled with Steve's message; I sent him what I hope are some constructive comments privately.
Bringing up nazis is rarely going to calm things down or promote constructive discussion.
And yes, he did that.
But Adrian! You really doubled down on the tension.
I appreciate that you are frustrated and disagree strongly with some of what Steve is saying.
I hear that you would like to have a discussion on how our diversity statement interacts with organizations people affiliatef with.
Doubling down on the nazi thing isn't going to give us a constructive or healthy discussion.
There are ways to have the discussion you are looking for that will be
more constructive and that will not promote quite so much of aflame war.
It sounds like you aren't feeling heard.
The particular example you picked is only likely to escalate things so
that none of us are hearing each other.
Please let us find a way to step back, listen to your concerns, but also respect the other people involved.
To the contrary, I haven't found anything in Adrian's post aggressive,
and very much, he is pointing at a topic we may want to address.
It's been said that RMS current issue is his *personal* view on some
topics, which aren't related to his work at FSF. One may agree with him
or not, or find what he wrote unacceptable or not, disgusting or not.
This isn't what I would like to discuss.
The point is: is there some restrictions on political views that the
Debian community/project would like to enforce? I've heard someone complaining that the Debian project hasn't made a statement about black
live maters and George Floyd. Is it ok if I believe in Communist and
strongly support the Chinese government, including the social
engineering part? Am I allowed to be a Trump supporter, denying the
climate change is man made?
More disturbing things now... What if I'm working for NSA, and
contribute to Debian so that the US government can spy even better on everyone? What if I'm working in Russia, and contribute to Debian for improving the army missile guidance system? Or if I'm contracted by the Chinese government so that they can use Debian to better track their citizens? Is all of that OK as a contribution to Debian?
What if I were fighting against same sex marriage? Or if I was at the
head of a company hiring people $1 per day to make shoes in Indonesia?
My own view on this is *very* liberal. In my view, we should allow
absolutely all of the above, without any restriction. Why? Simply
because otherwise, it's impossible to draw the line and set reasonable limits, without having infinite flame wars in our lists, which distract
us from our very important missing: being the best free operating
system. BTW, what's the RC bugs count for Bullseye? :)
I've joined Debian because of its technical excellence, and I'm staying because I believe in software freedom. I am trying to force myself to
not have too many interference on the interactions I have with other DDs because of political topics (and that, even though it itches a lot as I really love to share my ideas). I very much would like other DDs to try
to do the same if possible. It would be great if we all agree that
Debian is *not* the place to have this kind of political debates. There
are other places to do that. Engage yourself in politics, if you want,
but outside of Debian. I will deeply respect it, and will enjoy talking politics with you (I very much enjoy any political talks, and I do have
very strong opinions on some topics), but simply, outside of Debian is better.
The DFSG and social contract are there so that there's one thing we must agree on. I haven't signed up for one side of the political spectrum.
Please respect this.
Though as time passes, I'm seeing all of these lines increasingly
blurred. I hope for Debian to not become too engaged (promoting views I
share or not).
And there's what Adrian wrote:
If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions,
this could get some of our members into untenable positions where
I would be worried about their safety.
which I very much agree with. We also don't want Debian to become banned
from some countries because the project is too much engaged into
political debates (no need to name a particular country here I suppose...).
I'm sure I'm not the only person with this opinion. Please let me know
I'm not alone.
Cheers,
I'm sure I'm not the only person with this opinion. Please let me know
I'm not alone.
I'm sure I'm not the only person with this opinion. Please let me know
I'm not alone.
Le vendredi 09 avril 2021 � 17:27:30+0200, Thomas Goirand a �crit�:
The point is: is there some restrictions on political views that the Debian community/project would like to enforce? I've heard someone complaining that the Debian project hasn't made a statement about
black live maters and George Floyd. Is it ok if I believe in
Communist and strongly support the Chinese government, including the social engineering part? Am I allowed to be a Trump supporter,
denying the climate change is man made?
And there's what Adrian wrote:
If membership in Debian would imply anything about political
opinions, this could get some of our members into untenable
positions where I would be worried about their safety.
which I very much agree with. We also don't want Debian to become
banned from some countries because the project is too much engaged
into political debates (no need to name a particular country here I suppose...).
There seem to be for me some confusion here.
It is not the same at all to accept people with different views and to
let them express these if they go against the Code of Conduct we
voted.
Apart from that, Debian is political by its mere existence, and
expressing some opinion on who does or does not help us to achieve our
goals is quite relevant.
The fact that you are not alone having this opinion doesn't mean it is
the most shared one.
The point is: is there some restrictions on political views that the
Debian community/project would like to enforce?
It's been said that RMS current issue is his *personal* view on some
topics, which aren't related to his work at FSF. One may agree with him
or not, or find what he wrote unacceptable or not, disgusting or not.
This isn't what I would like to discuss.
The point is: is there some restrictions on political views that the
Debian community/project would like to enforce? I've heard someone complaining that the Debian project hasn't made a statement about black
live maters and George Floyd. Is it ok if I believe in Communist and
strongly support the Chinese government, including the social
engineering part? Am I allowed to be a Trump supporter, denying the
climate change is man made?
More disturbing things now... What if I'm working for NSA, and
contribute to Debian so that the US government can spy even better on everyone?
What if I'm working in Russia, and contribute to Debian for
improving the army missile guidance system? Or if I'm contracted by the Chinese government so that they can use Debian to better track their citizens? Is all of that OK as a contribution to Debian?
What if I were fighting against same sex marriage? Or if I was at the
head of a company hiring people $1 per day to make shoes in Indonesia?
My own view on this is *very* liberal. In my view, we should allow
absolutely all of the above, without any restriction. Why? Simply
because otherwise, it's impossible to draw the line and set reasonable limits, without having infinite flame wars in our lists, which distract
us from our very important missing: being the best free operating
system. BTW, what's the RC bugs count for Bullseye? :)
I've joined Debian because of its technical excellence, and I'm staying because I believe in software freedom. I am trying to force myself to
not have too many interference on the interactions I have with other DDs because of political topics (and that, even though it itches a lot as I really love to share my ideas). I very much would like other DDs to try
to do the same if possible. It would be great if we all agree that
Debian is *not* the place to have this kind of political debates. There
are other places to do that. Engage yourself in politics, if you want,
but outside of Debian. I will deeply respect it, and will enjoy talking politics with you (I very much enjoy any political talks, and I do have
very strong opinions on some topics), but simply, outside of Debian is better.
The DFSG and social contract are there so that there's one thing we must agree on. I haven't signed up for one side of the political spectrum.
Please respect this.
Though as time passes, I'm seeing all of these lines increasingly
blurred. I hope for Debian to not become too engaged (promoting views I
share or not).
And there's what Adrian wrote:
If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions,
this could get some of our members into untenable positions where
I would be worried about their safety.
which I very much agree with. We also don't want Debian to become banned
from some countries because the project is too much engaged into
political debates (no need to name a particular country here I suppose...).
I'm sure I'm not the only person with this opinion. Please let me know
I'm not alone.
Cheers,
Thomas Goirand (zigo)
On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 05:27:30PM +0200, Thomas Goirand wrote:
[...]
I've joined Debian because of its technical excellence, and I'm staying because I believe in software freedom. I am trying to force myself to
not have too many interference on the interactions I have with other DDs because of political topics (and that, even though it itches a lot as I really love to share my ideas). I very much would like other DDs to try
to do the same if possible. It would be great if we all agree that
Debian is *not* the place to have this kind of political debates. There
are other places to do that. Engage yourself in politics, if you want,
but outside of Debian. I will deeply respect it, and will enjoy talking politics with you (I very much enjoy any political talks, and I do have very strong opinions on some topics), but simply, outside of Debian is better.
The DFSG and social contract are there so that there's one thing we must agree on. I haven't signed up for one side of the political spectrum. Please respect this.
I don't see how it's not being respected. This is not a provocation, and I can
be wrong. Where the project is forcing you to sign up for a political side? If
it's about the GR, you have many options, including not to vote, or making your
vote public to oppose the majority if your option doesn't win. Or signing as individual a letter of support, posting your neutral position in your blog etc.
Or doing all that. Or doing nothing at all. I pretty much doubt that someone will ever consider a GR result as a single position shared by all DDs.
The DFSG and social contract are there so that there's one thing we must agree on. I haven't signed up for one side of the political spectrum.
Please respect this.
Though as time passes, I'm seeing all of these lines increasingly
blurred. I hope for Debian to not become too engaged (promoting views I
share or not).
And there's what Adrian wrote:
If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions,
this could get some of our members into untenable positions where
I would be worried about their safety.
which I very much agree with. We also don't want Debian to become banned
from some countries because the project is too much engaged into
political debates (no need to name a particular country here I suppose...).
I'm sure I'm not the only person with this opinion. Please let me know
I'm not alone.
...
Please, let's first agree that it's not (only) about his 'personal view on some
topics'. Most people defending RMS on this list seem to have suddenly s/actions/views/g in their spell checker. So, just to put words back to their place: it's about his incessant *actions* over the years, which may or may not
been directly connected with his (publicly stated) views. And his *actions*, and not his views alone, have hurt the community in many many ways. And this community is about software freedom, the thing you said you believe on, and the
thing that keeps you motivated to contribute to Debian.
...
On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 02:11:11PM -0400, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz wrote:
Please, let's first agree that it's not (only) about his 'personal view on some
topics'. Most people defending RMS on this list seem to have suddenly s/actions/views/g in their spell checker. So, just to put words back to their
place: it's about his incessant *actions* over the years, which may or may not
been directly connected with his (publicly stated) views. And his *actions*,
and not his views alone, have hurt the community in many many ways. And this
community is about software freedom, the thing you said you believe on, and the
thing that keeps you motivated to contribute to Debian.
...
This community would not exist without the actions of RMS.
RMS founded the free software movement.
RMS created the GNU project.
RMS wrote emacs for the GNU project.
RMS wrote gcc for the GNU project.
RMS wrote gdb for the GNU project.
RMS wrote the GPL.
RMS founded the FSF.
Linus Torvalds originally used a non-free licence for Linux,
before switching to the GPL.
The core of Debian are the tools from the GNU project.
In the early days of Debian, RMS through the FSF employed
the DPL full-time for his work on Debian.
An open letter stating there would be "no place in the free software community" for RMS is hugely offensive for many people who are aware
that the free software community would not exist without RMS.
RMS has always been a polarizing figure in the 38 years since he founded
the free software movement, but the same traits that make him difficult
are the reason why he stubbornly created this community against all obstacles.
We just had a week of this on debian-vote. Can we please not have another week of it on debian-project?
On Fri, Apr 09, 2021 at 02:11:11PM -0400, Tiago Bortoletto Vaz wrote:
[...]
[...]
cu
Adrian
Microsoft catalyzed the democratization of the Internet by
contributing to the boom of low-cost commodity PCs; and without
the rise of the Internet, the Free Software movement would not
have taken off.
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