Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people regardless of who they *are*.
It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless of the *idealogies they express*.
Nazis can fuck off.
I will reserve the right to tell nazis to fuck off, in private or in public according to what I deem most appropriate and effective, up until the point that the Debian Project kicks me out, or until it becomes clear to me that the Debian Project is no longer worth defending against nazis.
I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you point to one?
On Wed, 2021-04-07 at 21:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you point to one?Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, fetishes and whatever else.
On Sun, 11 Apr 2021 01:28:45 +0200, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
On Wed, 2021-04-07 at 21:38 +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
I wonder, though -- do we have a Nazi anywhere in the project? Could you point to one?Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, fetishes and whatever else.
I agree to a certain degree; as far as we talk about opinions or
beliefs, but (leftist slogan:) "fascism is not an opinion, it's a
crime" or (more verbose): I don't want to be in the same community as
people who deny other people their basic human dignity or (more
direct) who don't consider others as humans and want to kill them or
see them dead. And that's what Nationalsozialismus and facism is
about. [0]
Cheers,
gregor
[0] It gets a bit more complicated when differentiating between
"classic" Nazis and neo-nazis and old Italian fascists and
neo-facists and national conservatives and the (old) "Nouvelle
Droite" and the "Neue Rechte" and the "Identitäre" and all kinds of right-wing extremists and right-wing populist and "autoritärer Nationalradikalismus" … But in the end it boils down to the
"Ideologie der Ungleicheit", i.e. the belief that some people are
more valuable than others.
"gregor" == gregor herrmann <gregoa@debian.org> writes:
I agree to a certain degree; as far as we talk about opinions or
beliefs, but (leftist slogan:) "fascism is not an opinion, it's a
crime" or (more verbose): I don't want to be in the same community as
people who deny other people their basic human dignity or (more
direct) who don't consider others as humans and want to kill them or
see them dead. And that's what Nationalsozialismus and facism is
about. [0]
Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution instead.
On 2021/04/11 01:28, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the
Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, >> fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of
Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as
Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what
people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution >> instead.
Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep >those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
On 2021/04/11 01:28, Bernd Zeimetz wrote:
Although I really prefer not to have them in the project, its is not the Debian project's task to rule about political believs, opinions, religions, fetishes and whatever else. But I expect that people keep these things out of
Debian and especially the public discussion as far as possble. So long as Debian is not getting involved, it absolutely does not matter to us what people do outside of Debian. Let's focus on creating the best distribution instead.
Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep
those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
Does that go for all extremist ideologies or just the one?
Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct
and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code
and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace >political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my
strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists.
And do you know what? The text of the Diversity Statement agrees with
me, unless one were determined to twist its adverb "constructively" to >authorize mischievous *deconstruction* of the Project along
ideological lines.
On 2021/04/12 15:37, Michael Stone wrote:
Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep >>> those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here, >>> no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
Does that go for all extremist ideologies or just the one?
Probably all of them. I don't have anything specific in mind, but my
guess is that there would be some edge cases where we disagree on what
would constitute an extremist ideology, I've thought that we should
probably amend our CoC at some point to explain what kind of people are
/not/ welcome in Debian, but that's a matter for another GR :)
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 03:30:21PM +0000, Thaddeus H. Black wrote:[...]
Someone might reply by citing the Code of ConductUmm. Our diversity statement and CoC define agreed expectations of
and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code
and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace
political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my
strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists. [...]
behaviour and communication within the project; people espousing
fascist ideologies are surely not going to fit those standards. Do you somehow think they're compatible?
"Steve" == Steve McIntyre <steve@einval.com> writes:
Marxists? Maoists? Stalinists? Anarchists? Zionists? Anti-zionists?
Militant Quebec nationalists? Royalists? Imperialists? Indigenous
resistance groups? Ecoterrorists? Anyone that someone calls a terrorist? Speciesists? Anti-speciesists? Eugenicists? Any government that comes to power via a coup? Any government that maintains power while suppressing popular revolt? Anyone who participated in genocide? Anyone descended
from someone who participated in a genocide? Anyone who denies a
genocide? Anyone repeating a false genocide narrative? (By the way, you
had better be very, very careful about creating the appearance that
debian (via the DPL) is taking a position on some of those, because you
could get debian banned in various places if you say the wrong thing.)
The idea that "nazis" or "fascists" represent the full spectrum of what
can go wrong in human systems, or that understanding complex and
emotional conflicts is as simple as "blame the nazis" is simply wrong.
I'd go so far as to posit that the only common element in extremist ideologies is the certainty that their own beliefs and tactics are both superior to their opponents', and unimpeachable. I'd further posit that
it's possible to have extremist positions on any side of any issue
humans can argue about, and also that it's generally impossible to
identify a specific point on a continuum of beliefs at which a position changes from "reasonable disagreement" to "extremism".
The idea that debian should or even could create a list of acceptable
and unacceptable beliefs in all facets of any participant's life is preposterous. All we can reasonably do is require certain standards of behavior within forums we control or which are immediately adjacent.
Even from people who have declared that their opponent is a "nazi".
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 02:56:34PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
Not true, if someone identifies with fascist doctrine, even if they keep
those views off of the project channels, then they are not welcome here,
no matter where they engaged in those kind of activities.
Would you care to put that to a vote? I think you'll lose -- and if
you win, you'll fracture the Project.
I say it with all respect, Jonathan, as someone who admires you and
judges you to have been a tactful, prudent, competent, energetic,
effective Leader; but politicization of Debian has gone far enough. We
are not going to bar persons who identify with fascist doctrine or any
other doctrine from the Project if I have anything to say about it.
Someone might reply by citing the Code of Conduct
and Diversity Statement, but such citations do not impress me. The Code
and Statement were adopted to smooth the Project's work, not to menace political undesirables, nor to empower the easily offended. In my
strong opinion, Diversity includes everyone, even, especially fascists.
And do you know what? The text of the Diversity Statement agrees with
me, unless one were determined to twist its adverb "constructively" to authorize mischievous *deconstruction* of the Project along
ideological lines.
For all I know, a handful of Members might be determined to do just
that. I hope not. If so, though, then I'll warrant that the
deconstructors are in the minority, and a small minority at that. Given
an up-or-down vote, they would lose.
Meanwhile, regarding the GR, I have no comment except that I have cast
my vote, same as everyone else. However, your statement as quoted above cannot be supported.
The time for the tail to wag the dog is over. It's time to get back to
the open source.
2) If your statements (even outside of Debian) commit you to a path that denies dignity, it's entirely reasonable for us to talk to you about
whether you'll be able to act in accordance with the CoC and diversity statement.
Please convince us that you will be able to treat everyone in Debian
with dignity consistent with how we view dignity; convince us that your actions in Debian will create a welcoming community and treat all our
members with respect.
If you can answer that question, then we should hold you to that
answer. If your answer is good, I don't think statements outside of
Debian should get in the way of your participation beyond raising the discussion of how you will meet our community standards within Debian.
I do think if you affiliate yourself with an extreme ideology in your statements outside Debian, it's reasonable for us to be highly skeptical
and to ask you to show us how it's going to work.
I understand some people in the project disagree with me and would like
to kick people out for their statements outside of Debian.
That's just further than I can go right now.
I broadly agree with your framing of this, Sam, with one particular point of disagreement.
On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 01:17:30PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
2) If your statements (even outside of Debian) commit you to a path that denies dignity, it's entirely reasonable for us to talk to you about whether you'll be able to act in accordance with the CoC and diversity statement.
Please convince us that you will be able to treat everyone in Debian
with dignity consistent with how we view dignity; convince us that your actions in Debian will create a welcoming community and treat all our members with respect.
If you can answer that question, then we should hold you to that
answer. If your answer is good, I don't think statements outside of
Debian should get in the way of your participation beyond raising the discussion of how you will meet our community standards within Debian.
I do think if you affiliate yourself with an extreme ideology in your statements outside Debian, it's reasonable for us to be highly skeptical and to ask you to show us how it's going to work.
I understand some people in the project disagree with me and would like
to kick people out for their statements outside of Debian.
That's just further than I can go right now.
If one has made statements outside of Debian demonstrating that they hold to an ideology that denies the dignity of other members of the project, unless those statements have been *recanted*, the existence of those statements has a chilling effect on working with others within the project *per se*. It is not enough to ask that someone *pretend* to respect other members of the project while working within the project, if their outside behavior shows that they don't actually respect those other members of the project.
If a member of the Debian Project were known to have sexually
assaulted someone, this would be a concern for Debian being a safe environment. It wouldn't matter that the assault happened outside the context of Debian work, or that this individual had no opportunity to assault people inside of Debian.
The same applies to other, "lesser" behaviors that invalidate the
innate dignity of other members of the project. A committment to keep
one's mouth shut in a Debian context doesn't remove awareness of the
broader context.
"Steve" == Steve Langasek <vorlon@debian.org> writes:
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 296 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 14:34:13 |
| Calls: | 6,645 |
| Files: | 12,190 |
| Messages: | 5,326,935 |