• Diversity in an international project

    From Adrian Bunk@21:1/5 to Steve Langasek on Wed Apr 7 19:00:01 2021
    On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 01:23:11PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
    ...
    Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people regardless of who they *are*.

    It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless of the *idealogies they express*.

    Nazis can fuck off.
    ...

    Our diversity statement says:

    No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
    we welcome you.

    We welcome you, no matter whether you identify yourself as Nazi or
    whether others perceive you as Nazi.


    Our diversity statement says:

    We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact
    constructively with our community.

    It does not matter what one personally thinks about Nazis, or what one personally thinks about people who supported Drone Murder Obama, or what
    one personally thinks about people who call him Drone Murder Obama, we
    have committed to accept contributions from them.


    And this is important:

    Do we want Debian to be a project representing the affluent IT elite in
    the US and their political opinions, or do we want Debian to be a diverse international project with contributors everywhere in the world?


    As far as I know one of the largest users of our work in Debian is the
    Russian military, and we might have contributors from Russia with quite diverging views on domestic issues of their country.

    We do have developers in China, Hong Kong and Taiwan.

    There are many other places in the world where we either have members
    or would like to have members.


    When you use the word "Nazi", I have to think of current events in the
    real world where words like "concentration camps" and "genocide" are
    frequently used.

    If membership in Debian would imply anything about political opinions,
    this could get some of our members into untenable positions where
    I would be worried about their safety.


    cu
    Adrian

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  • From Sam Hartman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 7 20:00:01 2021
    I wasn't thrilled with Steve's message; I sent him what I hope are some constructive comments privately.
    Bringing up nazis is rarely going to calm things down or promote
    constructive discussion.
    And yes, he did that.

    But Adrian! You really doubled down on the tension.
    I appreciate that you are frustrated and disagree strongly with some of
    what Steve is saying.

    I hear that you would like to have a discussion on how our diversity
    statement interacts with organizations people affiliatef with.

    Doubling down on the nazi thing isn't going to give us a constructive or healthy discussion.
    There are ways to have the discussion you are looking for that will be
    more constructive and that will not promote quite so much of aflame war.


    It sounds like you aren't feeling heard.
    The particular example you picked is only likely to escalate things so
    that none of us are hearing each other.

    Please let us find a way to step back, listen to your concerns, but also respect the other people involved.

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  • From Steve McIntyre@21:1/5 to Adrian Bunk on Wed Apr 7 20:00:01 2021
    On Wed, Apr 07, 2021 at 07:44:01PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
    On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 01:23:11PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
    ...
    Debian's diversity statement commits us to be welcoming to all people
    regardless of who they *are*.

    It does *not* commit us to welcome all people into our community regardless >> of the *idealogies they express*.

    Nazis can fuck off.
    ...

    Our diversity statement says:

    No matter how you identify yourself or how others perceive you:
    we welcome you.

    We welcome you, no matter whether you identify yourself as Nazi or
    whether others perceive you as Nazi.


    Our diversity statement says:

    We welcome contributions from everyone as long as they interact
    constructively with our community.

    Almost by definition, Nazis are known not to interact constructively
    with communities. We value and support our diverse community; Nazism
    is well understood to be just about the polar opposite from that
    position. What's hard to understand here?

    *Please* stop now, this is not a helpful discussion for anybody
    involved. :-(

    --
    Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK. steve@einval.com "Because heaters aren't purple!" -- Catherine Pitt

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  • From Sam Hartman@21:1/5 to All on Fri Apr 9 19:00:02 2021
    "Thomas" == Thomas Goirand <zigo@debian.org> writes:

    Thomas> The point is: is there some restrictions on political views
    Thomas> that the Debian community/project would like to enforce?

    Yes, I think this is a topic worth discussing.

    There has been a motion in the free software community to focus more on
    the ethics of our software.
    I.E. not working on defense systems and the like.
    I've seen more focus on this at free software conferences.
    Interestingly, such restrictions fairly clearly fail both the DFSG and
    the OSD.
    And so I think that while that's a live issue in the community and worth discussing,
    you'll find that most Debian contributors (because of the DFSG) like you
    do not favor such restrictions in Debian.
    There are doubtless exceptions.

    BUT one of those things went further than that, and I think is a lot
    more interesting to discuss in the Debian context.

    Thomas> What if I were fighting against same sex marriage?

    The issue here is that we as a project have adopted a Code of Conduct
    and a Diversity Statement and we want to be welcoming to people,
    regardless of their sexual orientation, gender identity, and a number of
    other characteristics.

    I think it is well settled that you cannot fight against same-sex
    marriage in your Debian work.
    Doing so is inconsistent with our diversity statement.

    The interesting question is what happens when you fight against same-sex marriage outside your Debian work.

    Queer members of our community have told us they don't feel very welcome
    when they are working alongside people who are working to deny them what
    they view as basic rights like marriage.
    I'll certainly tell you that's true for myself.
    It's really hard to be welcomed when you're standing with people who
    don't acknowledge your humanity.
    and for basic stuff like the right to marry, being treated as your
    gender, using the bathroom, and a whole bunch of other stuff,
    disagreements do come across as denying your humanity.

    But there's a question about how far activities outside of Debian should interact with activities inside of Debian.

    Some people have argued that positions like fighting against same-sex
    marriage are so strong that even if you keep them outside of Debian, we inherently create a community that is not welcoming to queers by
    welcoming people who take those positions (even outside of their Debian
    work).

    Others have taken the position that we should only judge what people
    do within their Debian work.


    My suspicion is there is not a project consensus on this point.
    I don't even know if there is a consensus within the community team, or
    within the union of the community team and delegated members of the
    account managers.

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